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Definition of Atheist
Posted: 29 July 2013 12:05 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 256 ]
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LilySmith - 28 July 2013 06:50 PM
Write4U - 28 July 2013 05:36 PM

I agree. That’s why the question “why don’t religions get along”. We can understand the individuality of political power, but that is not what we are discussing. Communism is not a religion.  Atheism is not a causal belief system, it’s very nature is secular.

I think people of differing religions can and do get along.  It is not religions, in most case, that have laws, law enforcement and militaries.  That’s the realm of nations.  Nations go to war.  Religions are a set of beliefs concerning God.  Communism is a set of beliefs concerning social order.  The Communists were willing to kill millions for their set of beliefs.  They were atheist.  So atheists can be just as responsible for war and killing as theists.

I would say that theism is not a causal belief system either.  Just as atheism is a belief that there is no God, theism is a belief that there is a God.  It’s the ideology and the set of beliefs that go along with those two positions that will define what the people are willing to do and what kind of people they strive to be.

In my view you are wrong to say that atheism is a belief that there is no god.  Atheism is a lack of belief that a god exists. That is completely at odds with a belief that there is no god. One does not have to believe anything concerning god to be an atheist.  All we have to do is reject a claim that as no evidence, which is what we do.  It is not necessary to believe anything regarding the existence of a god. Rejecting the claim is all that is neessary. 

Lois

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Posted: 29 July 2013 07:04 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 257 ]
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MikeYohe - 27 July 2013 08:08 AM

Advocatus,
I understand what you are saying. But I also bet that you do not know any atheist that can communicate very understandably with the Christians either.

Well, I generally manage pretty well.  I used to belong to a Christian forum, and made quite a few friends there.  Sure there were some who simply refused to grasp my Humanist point of view, but I found a lot of common ground with some of them.

In the world today you have billions of Christians and Muslims who believe, pray and praise the creator God.  Millions of churches and institutions operating around the world in the name of this creator God.

So advocatus how do you explain this?

Do you recognize there being any power of any kind holding these billions of people together in thought?

The only “power” is the power of an idea.  “God” is an idea.  You talk as if he is a real being, calling it a “demon” or something.  BUT… the fact that there are so many different religions and denominations of religions clearly indicates that it is not a very coherent idea.  In fact, I would venture to say that each and every one of those teaming billions probably has a slightly different concept of what the idea of “God” actually means.  They band together only because there is more power in numbers.

Now how do you explain that half the Christians in the United States do not believe in Creation? They believe in God’s Evolution and even the Pope goes along with God’s Evolution.

Again, because the idea of “God” has a lot of wiggle room.  Maybe they have to accept evolution, but they want to smuggle their “God” idea in there somewhere.  They still believe in a Creator God regardless of what you claim they don’t believe in.

BTW, I don’t capitalize atheism the way Christianity is, because it is not an organized belief system with a certain set of doctrines.

[ Edited: 29 July 2013 07:07 AM by Advocatus ]
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Posted: 29 July 2013 07:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 258 ]
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Write4U

I watched the Utube, and Lewis Black pretty much said what a lot of Atheist think. Thanks

But on a lighter note,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPQj5ITva9k  (some crude language)

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Posted: 29 July 2013 07:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 259 ]
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Lois - ” Humans create morality every day, on our own, and this goes for Christians, as well. They simply don’t realize where it is actually coming from and misattribute it to their false religion. “

Religions can’t actually be “false”.  They’re exactly what they are, religions.

The finger pointing at the moon is not the moon.

There may be some pretty bizarre looking fingers out there, but what’s that got to do with the moon?

[ Edited: 29 July 2013 08:02 AM by brmckay ]
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Posted: 29 July 2013 08:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 260 ]
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Advocatus,
RE: Post # 257

Hello advocatus,

Good post.

You talk as if he is a real being, calling it a “demon” or something.

To me anyway, God being called a “demon” is correct.
Read on page 13, Post # 183 by Write4U.

They still believe in a Creator God regardless of what you claim they don’t believe in.

The Pope himself said it would be wrong for the Christians to ignore Evolution in 2007. What is “Intelligent Design”, show me in the Bible on the Creation of earth where it says “Intelligent Design” is the method god used. DNA and Stem Cells are all created by God through intelligent design.

Are atheists thoughts nothing more than part of gods intelligent design.

My reading has indicated to me that only about half the Christians believe in god as the creator of everything in 6 days and 6,000 ( some vary the time up to 12,000) years. The other half believe the earth is much older and things evolved.

Now, if you do not believe God is the Creator, but you still believe in God. Would you not believe in the “Power of God”?

I have also talked to many Christians that only want to use the NT and don’t even like talking about the OT. And to them God is Jesus, they do not think of Jesus as the Son of God, they think of Jesus as the one and only true God. One friend even told me that the OT god evolved into the NT god and had different morals, this friend is a pastor.

The bible is not clear on the make up of god.

There is God, the Son of God and the Holly Spirit.

That is 1 + 1 + 1 = 3 gods. Then they say, no it is all the same god.

Then if Jesus died, God killed himself on the cross.

I am told, that Jesus the god did not die, his sole left the cross before the body on the cross died. Just the mortal man who’s body Jesus was using died, but not Jesus. Jesus is now in heaven. You can not kill Jesus.

So who died on the cross for the sins?

I’ll stop here, this could be a whole other post subject.

Point being, that people start telling you what happen and how is all works not using the facts from the bible. They are using a belief from the Power of God that allows them to custom design god to fit their needs.

BTW, I don’t capitalize atheism the way Christianity is, because it is not an organized belief system with a certain set of doctrines.

I have been going both ways with atheism. And that is one of the problems of atheism having no organized structure. I do not think it could ever be a movement like Christianity because there is no body in charge to give direction.

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Posted: 29 July 2013 08:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 261 ]
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MikeYohe - 29 July 2013 07:18 AM

Write4U

I watched the Utube, and Lewis Black pretty much said what a lot of Atheist think. Thanks

But on a lighter note,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPQj5ITva9k  (some crude language)

Ironically, Lewis Black is a Jew.

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Posted: 29 July 2013 08:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 262 ]
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Lois - 29 July 2013 12:05 AM

In my view you are wrong to say that atheism is a belief that there is no god.  Atheism is a lack of belief that a god exists. That is completely at odds with a belief that there is no god. One does not have to believe anything concerning god to be an atheist.  All we have to do is reject a claim that as no evidence, which is what we do.  It is not necessary to believe anything regarding the existence of a god. Rejecting the claim is all that is neessary. 

I know that’s how many atheists have been presenting the argument, but I think they are beginning to realize the problem with saying you have no belief.  If the concept of God is introduced, and you decide you do not believe in God based on the evidence, then that is a faith position since there is no proof.  You can’t say it’s a lack of belief, because you have considered the possibility and chosen a position.

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Posted: 29 July 2013 09:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 263 ]
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Write4U - 28 July 2013 07:17 PM

True, but to prevent Religion itself from having political power we have the “separation of church and state”. This is why everyone is now free to vote.

And I stipulate that I am talking about the 3 Abrahamic religions which are founded on the same book and the same god but don’t seem to get along very well and have not for a few millennia, which I find very odd.

The idea and implementation of freedom of religion in our government was instituted by theists, mainly those of the Christian tradition, and is based on the idea of a Creator who gives each one life, liberty and property which no man made law should abridge—natural law.

Islam teaches that the Hebrew Scriptures and the Christian Scriptures are corrupt.  Islamic religion and law are based on the revelations given to Muhammad through the angel Gabriel in the 7th century and written in the Quran.  Only the Quran is believed by Muslims to be the word of God.  From the beginning they sought to bring Jews and Christians into their theocracy with Muhammad as the supreme prophet.  But Jews and Christians didn’t accept Muhammad as a prophet, and things went down hill from there.  Some of Islam’s worst atrocities were committed against Hindus.  This behavior is based on their set of beliefs—their religion—which is very different from that of Jews and Christians.

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Posted: 29 July 2013 09:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 264 ]
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MikeYohe - 29 July 2013 08:08 AM

The Pope himself said it would be wrong for the Christians to ignore Evolution in 2007.

Right!  But the Pope still believes that God “Created” the universe.  He just used evolution as a tool.  Just because they don’t believe in a literal six-day creation doesn’t mean they aren’t at heart Creationists.

I have been going both ways with atheism. And that is one of the problems of atheism having no organized structure. I do not think it could ever be a movement like Christianity because there is no body in charge to give direction.

Good!  Atheism SHOULDN’T be an “movement” for that very reason.  Secular Humanism, now that’s a different story.  That’s a movement because it has a positive message to project.

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Posted: 29 July 2013 10:00 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 265 ]
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The idea and implementation of freedom of religion in our government was instituted by theists, mainly those of the Christian tradition, and is based on the idea of a Creator who gives each one life, liberty and property which no man made law should abridge—natural law.

Except the the man who actually wrote that amendment was himself an agnostic at best. James Madison wrote the amendment to ensure that no Christian sect would be paramount in the new country and that religion and the political structure must be forever separated to avoid one influencing or dominating the other. He had no thought for any other religious belief. And the whole concept of “natural rights” was born out of the Enlightenment philosophies of Diests and atheists (e.g.Voltaire) and not from the established xtian doctrines of Protestantism or Catholicism. The concept of life, liberty and property, written into the Declaration of a independence and not the Constitution as some think reportedly came from English philosopher John Locke, a deist and born out of the theory of social contract. BTW, Madison also clearly stated that” ...religion binds and shackles the mind”. So you could call them nominal “theists” at best. Also see Article 11 of the Tripolitan Treaty of 1797 signed by John Adams clearly stating that the United Satates was NOT founded as a xtian nation.


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Posted: 29 July 2013 10:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 266 ]
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I’ll stop here

Oh, if only. This guy is starting to cut and paste like David Mabus.

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Posted: 29 July 2013 11:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 267 ]
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brmckay - 29 July 2013 07:59 AM

Lois - ” Humans create morality every day, on our own, and this goes for Christians, as well. They simply don’t realize where it is actually coming from and misattribute it to their false religion. “

Religions can’t actually be “false”.  They’re exactly what they are, religions.

The finger pointing at the moon is not the moon.

There may be some pretty bizarre looking fingers out there, but what’s that got to do with the moon?

Ok, then, false claims. 

Lois

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Posted: 29 July 2013 11:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 268 ]
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LilySmith - 29 July 2013 08:46 AM
Lois - 29 July 2013 12:05 AM

In my view you are wrong to say that atheism is a belief that there is no god.  Atheism is a lack of belief that a god exists. That is completely at odds with a belief that there is no god. One does not have to believe anything concerning god to be an atheist.  All we have to do is reject a claim that as no evidence, which is what we do.  It is not necessary to believe anything regarding the existence of a god. Rejecting the claim is all that is neessary. 

I know that’s how many atheists have been presenting the argument, but I think they are beginning to realize the problem with saying you have no belief.  If the concept of God is introduced, and you decide you do not believe in God based on the evidence, then that is a faith position since there is no proof.  You can’t say it’s a lack of belief, because you have considered the possibility and chosen a position.

It’s not a faith position.  The burden of proof is on the person making the claim, in this case, on the claim that a god exists. The burden never falls on the person who merely rejects a claim on the grounds that no evidence has been offered.  However, when an atheist takes it a step further than simply declaring that he doesn’t accept the claim by making his own claim that no god exists, the burden of proof falls on him to prove it. And, of course, he cannot. Therefore he should steer clear of making unsupportable claims lest he fall into the same lack-of-evidence trap as the theist.


Lois

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Posted: 29 July 2013 12:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 269 ]
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LilySmith - 29 July 2013 08:46 AM

I know that’s how many aunicornists have been presenting the argument, but I think they are beginning to realize the problem with saying you have no belief.  If the concept of unicorns is introduced, and you decide you do not believe in unicorns based on the evidence, then that is a faith position since there is no proof.  You can’t say it’s a lack of belief, because you have considered the possibility and chosen a position.

Do you believe in unicorns too?

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Posted: 29 July 2013 12:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 270 ]
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Thevillageatheist - 29 July 2013 10:00 AM

Except the the man who actually wrote that amendment was himself an agnostic at best. James Madison wrote the amendment to ensure that no Christian sect would be paramount in the new country and that religion and the political structure must be forever separated to avoid one influencing or dominating the other. He had no thought for any other religious belief. And the whole concept of “natural rights” was born out of the Enlightenment philosophies of Diests and atheists (e.g.Voltaire) and not from the established xtian doctrines of Protestantism or Catholicism. The concept of life, liberty and property, written into the Declaration of a independence and not the Constitution as some think reportedly came from English philosopher John Locke, a deist and born out of the theory of social contract. BTW, Madison also clearly stated that” ...religion binds and shackles the mind”. So you could call them nominal “theists” at best. Also see Article 11 of the Tripolitan Treaty of 1797 signed by John Adams clearly stating that the United Satates was NOT founded as a xtian nation.

Unless you’ve talked to James Madison from the grave, I don’t know why you think he was agnostic.  He was educated as a Presbyterian minister, but later in life didn’t reveal his religious views.  He saw the persecution of Baptist ministers by the Anglican church and was resolved to stand for religious freedom in America.  Because he didn’t voice his views on religion, doesn’t mean he didn’t have any.

The Enlightenment itself came on the heels of the Protestant reformation.  John Locke was at the forefront of questioning in such ideas, but at that time Deism was just beginning to separate from theism in its meaning and become a belief that God does not meddle in this world.  John Locke never held those views.  Deism died out quickly.

The Founding Father who renounced Christianity and embraced Deism was Thomas Paine when he went to take part in the French Revolution.  Upon his return to America he was unwelcomed and called an atheist. If you’re interested in a revolution led by Deists and atheists, and the reign of terror that followed, the French Revolution is for you.

Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli makes claims about the US government, not the nation as a whole.  No one is saying the US government is based on Christianity since, unlike Islam, Christianity has no outline or call for an earthly government or set of laws to define a government.  That’s not its function.  Christianity is about man’s relationship to God.

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