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Definition of Atheist
Posted: 06 August 2013 08:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 301 ]
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MikeYohe - 05 August 2013 02:18 PM

Lois,
What would the movies be like if all humans were rational and did not believe in impossible things?

So, you realize movies aren’t real, right? And you can go all the way back to the earliest stories ever told. There was a time when people understood that when a story was being told, it was a different type of experience. Problems start when people claim the stories are real and act accordingly.

As for faith, it is a word with a lot of baggage, but if you remove the religious connotations, it still has meaning. I have faith in my local fire department for instance. I know some of them, I drive by their garage, I see the lights are on, I see their trucks are in good working order. This is faith, based on personal experience. I don’t need scientific proof to have an expectation that they’ll be there if I need them.

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Posted: 06 August 2013 09:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 302 ]
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Lausten, I agree.

Understanding “Faith is a major topic of what this post is about.

Atheist does not believe in god as the creator. Ok, most Atheists and Christians agrees except maybe the God fearing brimstone creationists.  And they just think that the Atheist have lost their belief in God.

Now, if that is all this post is about, then that’s life and we just have to deal with a little misunderstand as part of the communication process and get on with life.

But the subjects in this post are Atheist issues and not Christian issues.

And the problems I been having in this post are all Atheist communication issues.

As I see it, this is a 100% Atheist problem.

And there are two major problems that the Atheist has.

The first problem is in understanding what the Atheist’s belief of what God is about.
The second problem is in understanding what the Christian belief system is.


The issue.

The Atheist believes that the Christians believe in God as the Creator. Very narrow, and it worked 20 years ago, but not today because Christianity has changed. 

This is wrong, in that only half the Christians believe in God as the Creator. The other half of the Christians believe in the Atheist’s belief of Evolution, but with a twist that it is God’s Evolution of Intelligent Design.

This is where the “Faith” part comes into play. The faith is in the “Power of God”. And most Atheists cannot get their arms around the concept that Faith itself is real. If the Atheist admits “Faith” is real then the Atheist would have to also admit that he believes God could be real in the “Faith” aspect, but not as the “Creator”. The Atheist does not know how or want to deal with this issue.

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Posted: 06 August 2013 09:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 303 ]
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Lausten, I agree.

No you don’t. Your definition of faith was completely different from mine. Quit doing that. And quit telling me what I, as an atheist, do or don’t think.

Christianity has not changed. Show me one major Christian leader, that holds an actual post in an actual denomination that says “God doesn’t exist, it’s just the power of the concept God that keeps us going”. Sure, many churches have loosened their standards but that’s just to keep the pews filled. Look at the very popular book, “The Purpose Driven Life”, it says to read the Bible then love and serve God, that’s your purpose.

You are misinterpreting the data. Show me what survey or surveys you are referring to and I will explain them.

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Posted: 06 August 2013 12:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 304 ]
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Lausten, I was agreeing with your take on faith.

As for faith, it is a word with a lot of baggage, but if you remove the religious connotations, it still has meaning. I have faith in my local fire department for instance. I know some of them, I drive by their garage, I see the lights are on, I see their trucks are in good working order. This is faith, based on personal experience. I don’t need scientific proof to have an expectation that they’ll be there if I need them.


Christianity has not changed.
I disagree on that Christianity has not changed.
Christianity created the Intelligent Design (ID). Would you not agree that this is a new Christian concept? One of the latest changes is some of the new bibles are changing the Virgin Mary to Mary the young woman.

Show me one major Christian leader, that holds an actual post in an actual denomination that says “God doesn’t exist, it’s just the power of the concept God that keeps us going”.

You most likely will not find a lot of Christian leaders that would admit to God being a faith power only.But there are so many things concerning God that the Christian leaders will not talk about. Only one God, right, do you really want to go over all the items that Christian leaders would rather not talk about in Church?

Yet half the mass of the Christians do not believe that the earth and everything on it was created in six days and that the earth was flooded and all the animals of the world placed in one boat, do you?

The Pope (2007) agreed that Evolution can not be ignored by Christians, and the Church backed ID as well as Creation. Now you also have God as not only the Creator but also using ID which is not in the Bible. Would that not require “Faith”? Evolution is an Atheist backed method of how species of on the earth came to be over millions and millions of years.

You tell me, how you can have a God that created the universe in 6 days, 6,000 years ago and also agree with Evolution?


Wiki.answers
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_there_any_logical_proof_that_God_exists

Does God Really Exist?
Answer: It is not possible to provide any logical proof that God exists.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God
God.
God is often conceived as the supreme being and principal object of faith.


Show me what survey or surveys you are referring to and I will explain them.
As far as data, you are probably seeing the same things I do on the net. There is no real polls conducted by the church on what the members’ beliefs are, but most articles agree that about half the Christians today believe in ID. You can find internet quotes on the matter and they say the numbers have not changed much in the last twenty years.

“Most Americans Believe in Higher Power, Poll Finds”. washingtonpost.com. Retrieved 2012-12-04. This is the second report from the think tank, based on one of the largest polls of Americans’ religious beliefs ever conducted, with 36,000 adults interviewed.

“A belief in God or a higher spirit is pervasive. Even Americans who describe themselves as atheist or agnostic have a robust sense of a higher power: Twenty-one percent of those who describe themselves as atheists expressed a belief in God or a universal spirit, and more than half of those who call themselves agnostic expressed a similar conviction.”

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Posted: 06 August 2013 12:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 305 ]
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MikeYohe - 06 August 2013 12:29 PM

Evolution is an Atheist backed method of how species of on the earth came to be over millions and millions of years.

No, it isn’t. You are wrong, and your straw man argument is worthless. Evolution is science, and has nothing to do with lack of belief in a supernatural deity.

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“In the beginning, God created the universe. This has made many people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.”
Douglas Adams, The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

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Posted: 06 August 2013 12:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 306 ]
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Lausten - 06 August 2013 08:01 AM
MikeYohe - 05 August 2013 02:18 PM

Lois,
What would the movies be like if all humans were rational and did not believe in impossible things?

So, you realize movies aren’t real, right? And you can go all the way back to the earliest stories ever told. There was a time when people understood that when a story was being told, it was a different type of experience. Problems start when people claim the stories are real and act accordingly.

As for faith, it is a word with a lot of baggage, but if you remove the religious connotations, it still has meaning. I have faith in my local fire department for instance. I know some of them, I drive by their garage, I see the lights are on, I see their trucks are in good working order. This is faith, based on personal experience. I don’t need scientific proof to have an expectation that they’ll be there if I need them.

What you have is not faith, it is reasonable expectation, based on past experience and intelligent assessment.  To call it faith is to inject a supernatural concept and to deny your ability to make rational assessments.

Lois

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Posted: 06 August 2013 02:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 307 ]
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DarronS.
No, it isn’t. You are wrong, and your straw man argument is worthless. Evolution is science, and has nothing to do with lack of belief in a supernatural deity.

Did I word this wrong. My thinking is that most Atheists agree with Evolution and back the ideas of Evolution over those of Creation.

In Evolution there is no supernatural deity, except in the Intelligent Design concept of Evolution.
Now, if there are more people believe in the Intelligent Design Evolution which includes all the standard thinking of “Science” Evolution.

Then Darron the meaning you and I understand may be changing.

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Posted: 06 August 2013 02:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 308 ]
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Lois,
What you have is not faith, it is reasonable expectation …

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith

Faith is confidence or trust in a person, thing, deity, or in the doctrines or teachings of a religion or view (e.g. having strong political faith). It can also be belief that is not based on proof.[1] The word faith is often used as a substitute for hope, trust or belief.
In religion, faith often involves accepting claims about the character of a deity, nature, or the universe. While some have argued that faith is opposed to reason, proponents of faith argue that the proper domain of faith concerns questions which cannot be settled by evidence.


Lois,

You are right. I have been using it to mean hope and belief. But I see now that it has a heavy religious meaning that I was aware of but was not using it in that manner. The whole idea is to communicate. And the word “Faith” may have different meaning with people. Lausten may not see my thoughts when I use the word if he has a different take on the word.

I will remember to reword my thoughts and start using words like belief, confidence, devotion, loyalty, conviction, assurance, reliance and trust.

Thanks,
Mike

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Posted: 06 August 2013 02:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 309 ]
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Lausten,
Off subject, just water cooler talk here.

So, you realize movies aren’t real, right? And you can go all the way back to the earliest stories ever told. There was a time when people understood that when a story was being told, it was a different type of experience. Problems start when people claim the stories are real and act accordingly.

This is off subject, but this make me think about some reading I was doing yesterday.

I started out in the Coptic Version of the New Testament to get an option on John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word”.  Now I know that is about as Egyptian as you can get because they believed the Earth and everything was created by the word. Words had magic. Even much latter in the time of Moss words could put spells and hexes on people. That’s why it made it to the 10 commandments.

I would find an answer to one question and end up with five more questions.

Ended up in Islam and some old poems in a library in Europe that were written before Mohammad and they were use in his area, and were of Arabic structure with a very small Hinduism and Sanskrit references.  And these poems had lines in them about the India gods. And the author was pointing out that Islam has facts about India gods that have been renamed.

No big deal, we know that religions evolve. But then the author point to some facts that many of the older stories when written were never meant to be taken literally, but when pick up in latter ages and rewritten they were taken literally. 

It is all right in line with your statement.

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Posted: 06 August 2013 04:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 310 ]
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MikeYohe - 06 August 2013 02:13 PM

Lois,
What you have is not faith, it is reasonable expectation …

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith

Faith is confidence or trust in a person, thing, deity, or in the doctrines or teachings of a religion or view (e.g. having strong political faith). It can also be belief that is not based on proof.[1] The word faith is often used as a substitute for hope, trust or belief.
In religion, faith often involves accepting claims about the character of a deity, nature, or the universe. While some have argued that faith is opposed to reason, proponents of faith argue that the proper domain of faith concerns questions which cannot be settled by evidence.


Lois,

You are right. I have been using it to mean hope and belief. But I see now that it has a heavy religious meaning that I was aware of but was not using it in that manner. The whole idea is to communicate. And the word “Faith” may have different meaning with people. Lausten may not see my thoughts when I use the word if he has a different take on the word.

I will remember to reword my thoughts and start using words like belief, confidence, devotion, loyalty, conviction, assurance, reliance and trust.


Thanks,
Mike


I’d leave out belief.  It’s too much like faith.

Lois

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Posted: 06 August 2013 05:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 311 ]
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Christianity created the Intelligent Design (ID). Would you not agree that this is a new Christian concept?

No

You tell me, how you can have a God that created the universe in 6 days, 6,000 years ago and also agree with Evolution?

I’m not going to do that, but some people could. They’d be wrong of course

There is no real polls conducted by the church on what the members’ beliefs are

Wrong

You can find internet quotes on the matter and they say the numbers have not changed much in the last twenty years.

Wrong

It is all right in line with your statement.

 
Not ALL. Just that last sentence. The rest of what you said was most likely inaccurate, although I’ll withhold any stronger judgment since you gave no citation.

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Posted: 07 August 2013 10:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 312 ]
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Lois - 06 August 2013 12:43 PM
Lausten - 06 August 2013 08:01 AM

As for faith, it is a word with a lot of baggage, but if you remove the religious connotations, it still has meaning. I have faith in my local fire department for instance. I know some of them, I drive by their garage, I see the lights are on, I see their trucks are in good working order. This is faith, based on personal experience. I don’t need scientific proof to have an expectation that they’ll be there if I need them.

What you have is not faith, it is reasonable expectation, based on past experience and intelligent assessment.  To call it faith is to inject a supernatural concept and to deny your ability to make rational assessments.

Lois

I’ve seen and met angels wearing the disguise of ordinary people
leading ordinary lives.
Filled with love compassion forgiveness and sacrifice.
Heaven’s in our hearts
In our faith in humankind
In our respect for what is earthly
In our unfaltering belief in peace and love and understanding
—Tracey Chapman

You are taking the parts of the definition of faith that are claimed by believers and making them the primary definition. I’m not denying that as a definition, but I’m not going to let anyone take away my right to have faith in humankind, despite all the evidence to the contrary. I have limited evidence that we will overcome global warming or that we won’t kill ourselves in some other way, or that we will argue about how to deal with a meteor strike right up until that strike occurs. I can still have faith we will overcome these obstacles without injecting any supernatural concepts.

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Posted: 07 August 2013 01:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 313 ]
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Lausten - 07 August 2013 10:52 AM
Lois - 06 August 2013 12:43 PM
Lausten - 06 August 2013 08:01 AM

As for faith, it is a word with a lot of baggage, but if you remove the religious connotations, it still has meaning. I have faith in my local fire department for instance. I know some of them, I drive by their garage, I see the lights are on, I see their trucks are in good working order. This is faith, based on personal experience. I don’t need scientific proof to have an expectation that they’ll be there if I need them.

What you have is not faith, it is reasonable expectation, based on past experience and intelligent assessment.  To call it faith is to inject a supernatural concept and to deny your ability to make rational assessments.

Lois

I’ve seen and met angels wearing the disguise of ordinary people
leading ordinary lives.
Filled with love compassion forgiveness and sacrifice.
Heaven’s in our hearts
In our faith in humankind
In our respect for what is earthly
In our unfaltering belief in peace and love and understanding
—Tracey Chapman

You are taking the parts of the definition of faith that are claimed by believers and making them the primary definition. I’m not denying that as a definition, but I’m not going to let anyone take away my right to have faith in humankind, despite all the evidence to the contrary. I have limited evidence that we will overcome global warming or that we won’t kill ourselves in some other way, or that we will argue about how to deal with a meteor strike right up until that strike occurs. I can still have faith we will overcome these obstacles without injecting any supernatural concepts.

Nobody is trying to take away your right to believe in anything, so stop being paranoid. Just don’t present your unsupported beliefs as rational or that there is objevtive evidence behind them. You can believe in any hare-brained idea you can come up with and nobody is going to stop you.  But intelligent people are going to scoff at unsupported beliefs.  They have a right to do that as much as you have a right to believe in unsupported claims. Maintainingg that a belief needs no objective evidence IS injecting a supernatural concept because it defies logic and cannot be supported empirically. But no one is trying ro stop you from believing it. Some people are tyingto make you more sensible, that’s all.  You are free to reject it.

[ Edited: 07 August 2013 01:57 PM by Lois ]
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Posted: 07 August 2013 02:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 314 ]
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Maintainingg that a belief needs no objective evidence IS injecting a supernatural concept because it defies logic and cannot be supported empirically.

faith
/fāTH/
Noun

1.  Complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
2.  Strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.

Two definitions. I can use the first one with no implication that I am implying anything about the second one. If you wait for empirical data to act on everything, your actions will be severely limited.

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Posted: 08 August 2013 03:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 315 ]
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Great, thanks, Mike

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