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Mama’s, Don’t let your humanists grow up to be soldiers…
Posted: 15 June 2013 03:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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Thevillageatheist - 15 June 2013 09:29 AM

Here’s a song we used to sing back in the day: a Buffy St. Marie original.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyNLN-cKsp8


Cap’t Jack

Love it.

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As a fabrication of our own consciousness, our assignations of meaning are no less “real”, but since humans and the fabrications of our consciousness are routinely fraught with error, it makes sense, to me, to, sometimes, question such fabrications.

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Posted: 15 June 2013 03:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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Yes, but that isn’t really “pushing” religion so much as just accommodating those who are religious.

Really LM? Until 1972 chapel attendance was mandatory for all Naval cadets but was declared illegal by Anderson v. laird. Cadets still complain about pressure from chaplains who often recite the prayers before events and due to the subtle pressure from religious officers secular cadets formed a free thought org. Which hasn’t as yet been recognized as a legitimate group and there are continuous complaints from freethinkers from the other branches. I’d say that’s more than accommodating.


Cap’t Jack

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2012/05/24/secular-students-of-the-military-the-naval-academy/

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One good schoolmaster is of more use than a hundred priests.

Thomas Paine

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Posted: 15 June 2013 03:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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LogicMan - 15 June 2013 11:43 AM
Lois - 15 June 2013 06:58 AM

That’s right, especially the ones that are fighting for god and country. They will do everything they’re told.  They make perfect military cogs. That’s why the military pushes religion.  They know it encourages people to follow orders unquestioningly, the essence of war and mayhem.

.....

Mindless trigger pullers is the last thing the military wants. Today’s military emphasizes critical thinking and independent thought and professionalism. And the military doesn’t push religion. If anything, political correctness is becoming excessive within the military. It’s just that a lot of people in the military happen to be religious is all.

They do push religion and they’ve been called on it many times.  Why do you think they have chaplains on every base, bought and paid for by the military? Whether the soldiers are trigger happy or trained killers doesnt change the fact that they are in the business of killing people.  If any of them had half a brain they wouldn’t be in the military and that includes the officers right up to the generals.

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Posted: 15 June 2013 05:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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Lois - 15 June 2013 03:06 PM

They do push religion and they’ve been called on it many times.  Why do you think they have chaplains on every base, bought and paid for by the military? Whether the soldiers are trigger happy or trained killers doesnt change the fact that they are in the business of killing people.  If any of them had half a brain they wouldn’t be in the military and that includes the officers right up to the generals.

Why wouldn’t someone with “half a brain” be in the military? Who is supposed to protect the country? We don’t live in a peaceful world, we live in a world with lots of people who want to kill us. In World War 2, it was a maniacal death cult, Nazism, and the Japanese, who in the Rape of Nanking outdid the Nazis in the cruelty department. Then it was the Soviet Union, which was under the atheist religion of communism, which it sought to spread all over the world. Today it’s radical Islam. I don’t know about you, but I prefer to have intelligent people of good character running the military, not the dregs of society.

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Posted: 15 June 2013 05:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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Thevillageatheist - 15 June 2013 03:06 PM

Yes, but that isn’t really “pushing” religion so much as just accommodating those who are religious.

Really LM? Until 1972 chapel attendance was mandatory for all Naval cadets but was declared illegal by Anderson v. laird. Cadets still complain about pressure from chaplains who often recite the prayers before events and due to the subtle pressure from religious officers secular cadets formed a free thought org. Which hasn’t as yet been recognized as a legitimate group and there are continuous complaints from freethinkers from the other branches. I’d say that’s more than accommodating.


Cap’t Jack

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2012/05/24/secular-students-of-the-military-the-naval-academy/

If there is subtle pressure, that is wrong, but I meant that the presence of chaplains and such I did not see as “pushing religion” on anyone. Mandatory chapel attendance was wrong.

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Posted: 15 June 2013 11:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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LogicMan - 15 June 2013 05:20 PM
Lois - 15 June 2013 03:06 PM

They do push religion and they’ve been called on it many times.  Why do you think they have chaplains on every base, bought and paid for by the military? Whether the soldiers are trigger happy or trained killers doesnt change the fact that they are in the business of killing people.  If any of them had half a brain they wouldn’t be in the military and that includes the officers right up to the generals.

Why wouldn’t someone with “half a brain” be in the military? Who is supposed to protect the country? We don’t live in a peaceful world, we live in a world with lots of people who want to kill us. In World War 2, it was a maniacal death cult, Nazism, and the Japanese, who in the Rape of Nanking outdid the Nazis in the cruelty department. Then it was the Soviet Union, which was under the atheist religion of communism, which it sought to spread all over the world. Today it’s radical Islam. I don’t know about you, but I prefer to have intelligent people of good character running the military, not the dregs of society.

Our military is no longer “protecting” us. Our military is more likely to invade other countries than to protect us from attack. No country has tried to attack or invade us.

I, too, would prefer intelligent people of good character running our military, but we don’t have that.  Good character and killing seldom go together.  Good character and invading other countries and killing and maiming innocent people also don’t go together.  Is radical Islam attacking the US?  If so, please tell me where they are located. What country has tried to attack us? We’ve invaded two countries looking for “radical Islam.”  We’ve managed to devastate those countries and we haven’t found the perpetrators yet.  All we’ve done is kill innocent people by the thousands and we’re responsible for the deaths and maiming of thousands of our own soldiers.  What do we have to show for it besides creating desperate, angry people who had no intention of attacking us but who now DO have a reason to attack us. Please show me where we find “intelligent people of good character” wilimg to continue the insanity.

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Posted: 15 June 2013 11:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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Thevillageatheist - 15 June 2013 03:06 PM

Yes, but that isn’t really “pushing” religion so much as just accommodating those who are religious.

Really LM? Until 1972 chapel attendance was mandatory for all Naval cadets but was declared illegal by Anderson v. laird. Cadets still complain about pressure from chaplains who often recite the prayers before events and due to the subtle pressure from religious officers secular cadets formed a free thought org. Which hasn’t as yet been recognized as a legitimate group and there are continuous complaints from freethinkers from the other branches. I’d say that’s more than accommodating.


Cap’t Jack

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2012/05/24/secular-students-of-the-military-the-naval-academy/

Eh, I agree with Logic Man on this.

Also, 1972 was a long time ago, and the Naval Academy is not typical of the military.

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Posted: 16 June 2013 01:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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Lois - 15 June 2013 11:31 PM
LogicMan - 15 June 2013 05:20 PM
Lois - 15 June 2013 03:06 PM

They do push religion and they’ve been called on it many times.  Why do you think they have chaplains on every base, bought and paid for by the military? Whether the soldiers are trigger happy or trained killers doesnt change the fact that they are in the business of killing people.  If any of them had half a brain they wouldn’t be in the military and that includes the officers right up to the generals.

Why wouldn’t someone with “half a brain” be in the military? Who is supposed to protect the country? We don’t live in a peaceful world, we live in a world with lots of people who want to kill us. In World War 2, it was a maniacal death cult, Nazism, and the Japanese, who in the Rape of Nanking outdid the Nazis in the cruelty department. Then it was the Soviet Union, which was under the atheist religion of communism, which it sought to spread all over the world. Today it’s radical Islam. I don’t know about you, but I prefer to have intelligent people of good character running the military, not the dregs of society.

Our military is no longer “protecting” us. Our military is more likely to invade other countries than to protect us from attack. No country has tried to attack or invade us.

I, too, would prefer intelligent people of good character running our military, but we don’t have that.  Good character and killing seldom go together.  Good character and invading other countries and killing and maiming innocent people also don’t go together.  Is radical Islam attacking the US?  If so, please tell me where they are located. What country has tried to attack us? We’ve invaded two countries looking for “radical Islam.”  We’ve managed to devastate those countries and we haven’t found the perpetrators yet.  All we’ve done is kill innocent people by the thousands and we’re responsible for the deaths and maiming of thousands of our own soldiers.  What do we have to show for it besides creating desperate, angry people who had no intention of attacking us but who now DO have a reason to attack us. Please show me where we find “intelligent people of good character” wilimg to continue the insanity.

Agreed. If our military was full of “intelligent critical thinkers”, then more of them would be in jail right now for disobeying direct orders. Independent free-thinkers just don’t tend to make good soldiers.

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Don’t get set into one form, adapt it and build your own, and let it grow, be like water. Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like water. Now you put water in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put water into a bottle it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.

- Bruce Lee -

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Posted: 16 June 2013 12:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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Lois - 15 June 2013 11:31 PM

Our military is no longer “protecting” us. Our military is more likely to invade other countries than to protect us from attack. No country has tried to attack or invade us.

That’s in part because of the military that other countries have no tried to invade or attack us (although terrorists have). And the military does not act as some independent entity, it answers to the government, which itself is elected by the people. 

I, too, would prefer intelligent people of good character running our military, but we don’t have that.  Good character and killing seldom go together.  Good character and invading other countries and killing and maiming innocent people also don’t go together.  Is radical Islam attacking the US?  If so, please tell me where they are located. What country has tried to attack us? We’ve invaded two countries looking for “radical Islam.”  We’ve managed to devastate those countries and we haven’t found the perpetrators yet.  All we’ve done is kill innocent people by the thousands and we’re responsible for the deaths and maiming of thousands of our own soldiers.  What do we have to show for it besides creating desperate, angry people who had no intention of attacking us but who now DO have a reason to attack us. Please show me where we find “intelligent people of good character” wilimg to continue the insanity.

The U.S. barely killed anybody invading Iraq. That was Al-Qaeda, which decided to start a war with the U.S. in the country. As for Afghanistan, the U.S. did not devastate that country by any means. The U.S. presence there is not like the Soviet presence was and the terrorists have done much threatening of the people there.

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Posted: 16 June 2013 12:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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Cloak - 16 June 2013 01:22 AM

Agreed. If our military was full of “intelligent critical thinkers”, then more of them would be in jail right now for disobeying direct orders. Independent free-thinkers just don’t tend to make good soldiers.

The military has lots of independent free thinkers, and yes independent free thinkers do make excellent soldiers. In fact, they make among the best soldiers (read up about the Special Forces (“Green Berets”), Navy SEALs, and so forth—-one can’t be stupid and join those forces). I think you guys are confusing a mindset being willing to execute orders from the civilian authorities versus just blindly following orders.

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Posted: 16 June 2013 09:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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LogicMan - 16 June 2013 12:31 PM
Cloak - 16 June 2013 01:22 AM

Agreed. If our military was full of “intelligent critical thinkers”, then more of them would be in jail right now for disobeying direct orders. Independent free-thinkers just don’t tend to make good soldiers.

The military has lots of independent free thinkers, and yes independent free thinkers do make excellent soldiers. In fact, they make among the best soldiers (read up about the Special Forces (“Green Berets”), Navy SEALs, and so forth—-one can’t be stupid and join those forces). I think you guys are confusing a mindset being willing to execute orders from the civilian authorities versus just blindly following orders.

Being intelligent doesn’t automatically make you a good critical thinker. Of course you can’t be stupid and be a Navy SEAL, but you MUST be obedient. That’s the problem.

And most military that I know personally and consider to be free thinkers absolutely hate the military now, because they now see it for what it is.

[ Edited: 16 June 2013 09:18 PM by Cloak ]
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Don’t get set into one form, adapt it and build your own, and let it grow, be like water. Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like water. Now you put water in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put water into a bottle it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.

- Bruce Lee -

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Posted: 16 June 2013 11:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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Cloak - 16 June 2013 09:16 PM

but you MUST be obedient. That’s the problem.

Not always. I believe the issue with this is actually moral righteousness, which can’t ever be laid out - because morality is relative.

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Posted: 17 June 2013 08:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
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mid atlantic - 16 June 2013 11:39 PM
Cloak - 16 June 2013 09:16 PM

but you MUST be obedient. That’s the problem.

Not always. I believe the issue with this is actually moral righteousness, which can’t ever be laid out - because morality is relative.

Either way, my point still stands, free-thinking humanists and critical thinkers make horrible soldiers.

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Don’t get set into one form, adapt it and build your own, and let it grow, be like water. Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like water. Now you put water in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put water into a bottle it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.

- Bruce Lee -

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Posted: 17 June 2013 12:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
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Cloak - 17 June 2013 08:06 AM

Either way, my point still stands, free-thinking humanists and critical thinkers make horrible soldiers.

I have known some soldiers that I would consider very much humanist and critical thinkers, so I still think that’s over-simplified. It also depends on the military. If it’s a nation with a military where you are just expected to side with said nation and that’s that, regardless of whether what the nation is doing is good or evil, then humanists will be terrible. For example, humanists would not have done well in the Wehrmacht or the Soviet military. But Western militaries that try their best to respect human rights and which answer to democratic governments that also try to respect human rights are different, and humanists can function better in those.

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Posted: 17 June 2013 01:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
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LogicMan - 17 June 2013 12:21 PM
Cloak - 17 June 2013 08:06 AM

Either way, my point still stands, free-thinking humanists and critical thinkers make horrible soldiers.

I have known some soldiers that I would consider very much humanist and critical thinkers, so I still think that’s over-simplified. It also depends on the military. If it’s a nation with a military where you are just expected to side with said nation and that’s that, regardless of whether what the nation is doing is good or evil, then humanists will be terrible. For example, humanists would not have done well in the Wehrmacht or the Soviet military. But Western militaries that try their best to respect human rights and which answer to democratic governments that also try to respect human rights are different, and humanists can function better in those.

Yes, it would be great if they respected human rights, and it would be pretty good if they answered to a democratic government too. Except we are talking about the US military, a massive government tool that is used for imperialistic purposes. This is not something that a clear thinking humanist would support.

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Don’t get set into one form, adapt it and build your own, and let it grow, be like water. Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like water. Now you put water in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put water into a bottle it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.

- Bruce Lee -

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