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Posted: 07 June 2013 01:28 PM   [ Ignore ]
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Obama Admin’s Secret Surveillance Policies

Obama’s Drone Policies and the Many Innocent Deaths (which includes children) It Has Caused

What exactly does it take for people to stop defending this guy? I swear, even if a report came up which said “Obama is now eating children”, some of his loyal fans would still find some way to justify it…..

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Posted: 11 June 2013 10:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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What’s your point? There are people who still defend Bush and Cheney and they’re the outright war criminals who made Obama’s transgressions possible. Maybe you’re under the naïve impression that there is or ever was such a thing as a virtuous all good POTUS.

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Posted: 11 June 2013 10:42 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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And had he backed off the policies, the right would scream about how he left America defenseless in the face of terrorists or some such nonsense. What he is guilty of is continuing the policies of previous administrations but the real issue here is how much of our personal freedom do we give up for protection and how many soldiers are we willing to sacrifice to obtain it? Drones were created to minimize battle deaths ( I disagree with the practice as a soldier can now turn real death into a video game and receive a medal for it) and survellience methods are as old as the Cold War, hell even businesses are using these methods by tracking our interests and purchases. And now that everyone is plugged into the www, we are easy to monitor, even our thoughts. How many people on this site are being monitored now just for having a conversation with a visiting Muslim? The fourth amendment is dying as we enter the 21st Century.


Cap’t Jack

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Posted: 11 June 2013 03:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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Government agencies spying on private citizens is not new. J. Edgar Hoover did it quite a while ago. There seems to have been a long tradition of this sort of thing. What is new is The Patriot Act which legitimizes it, and advancements in technology that make it easier.  BTW the Patriot Act was passed during a previous administration.

Drones have been much more effective in the “war on terror” and have killed far fewer innocents than the invasion and years of full blown war in Iraq.  Also started by a different administration. 

If I were to vote on a recent political leader that is most likely to be guilty of eating children, my vote would go to Dick Cheney. 

I don’t blame anyone for complaining of Obama’s culpability in these matters, as long as they were more exuberant in their complaints re: the even more destructive and freedom eroding policies of the George W. administration.

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Posted: 12 June 2013 08:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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CuthbertJ - 11 June 2013 10:10 AM

What’s your point? There are people who still defend Bush and Cheney and they’re the outright war criminals who made Obama’s transgressions possible. Maybe you’re under the naïve impression that there is or ever was such a thing as a virtuous all good POTUS.

Maybe I’m not?

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Posted: 12 June 2013 09:00 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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TimB - 11 June 2013 03:33 PM

Government agencies spying on private citizens is not new. J. Edgar Hoover did it quite a while ago. There seems to have been a long tradition of this sort of thing. What is new is The Patriot Act which legitimizes it, and advancements in technology that make it easier.  BTW the Patriot Act was passed during a previous administration.

Drones have been much more effective in the “war on terror” and have killed far fewer innocents than the invasion and years of full blown war in Iraq.  Also started by a different administration. 

If I were to vote on a recent political leader that is most likely to be guilty of eating children, my vote would go to Dick Cheney. 

I don’t blame anyone for complaining of Obama’s culpability in these matters, as long as they were more exuberant in their complaints re: the even more destructive and freedom eroding policies of the George W. administration.

Sure. I’m just hoping that Obama supporters are just as willing to throw down the gauntlet with Obama as they were with Bush.

Secondly, this “terrorism surveillance” wouldn’t even be “necessary” if our country wasn’t responsible for generating so much hatred in the Middle East. If you lived in Afghanistan and watched your brother get blown in another drone mishap, you’d want to join a terrorist group and blow up Americans too.

If you’re one of those people who don’t look at Obama through rose-tinted shades, and understand that he is just another bought out corporate shill who lies through his teeth (arguably, more effectively and convincingly than Bush and Clinton), then we’re in the same boat.

The fact is: Obama’s our Bush.

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Posted: 12 June 2013 09:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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Thevillageatheist - 11 June 2013 10:42 AM

And had he backed off the policies, the right would scream about how he left America defenseless in the face of terrorists or some such nonsense. What he is guilty of is continuing the policies of previous administrations but the real issue here is how much of our personal freedom do we give up for protection and how many soldiers are we willing to sacrifice to obtain it?”
Cap’t Jack

If he backed off, a bunch of politicians would have screamed about it. Politicians. Who gives a damn. We have to stop acting as if Obama is “helplessly forced” into every one of these situations, you know, those secret situations that nobody ever seems to find out about until someone leaks the information.

And as I already said in another post, we play a significant role in generating Middle Eastern hatred. Instead of making the necessary amends, backing out, and dealing with our own situation, we still send more of our children over to someone else’s land and kill their children. It’s absolute insanity, and what bothers me is that some of the most intelligent and prominent liberals/progressives in the national community still see this as effective foreign policy.

But of course, when this all dies down, and when the US govt. moves from the damage control phase back to the propaganda phase, many of the liberals will just pull another Bradley Manning and cheer for Edward Snowden’s capture and punishment, as if he’s the main culprit.

[ Edited: 12 June 2013 09:12 AM by Cloak ]
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Posted: 12 June 2013 09:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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I think that it is fair to contend that Obama is culpable to the extent that he has carried on some counter-productive policies of the Bush administration. However, I think that equating this misguidedness of the George W. administration to the Obama administration is like saying that an apple, that is rotten to the core, is the same as an apple with some spots on it.  So, I think we’re not in the same boat.  I wonder whether your boat might be a little dingy.  (Sorry, I couldn’t resist the pun.)

And while your statement, “... this “terrorism surveillance” wouldn’t even be “necessary” if our country wasn’t responsible for generating so much hatred in the Middle East. If you lived in Afghanistan and watched your brother get blown in another drone mishap, you’d want to join a terrorist group and blow up Americans too.”  seems to have face value, you can’t use it to differentially condemn Obama policies, as our “generating so much hatred in the Middle East” goes back to before Obama was even born.

The use of drones, resulting in the deaths of innocent is terrible.  Full blown war is more terrible. Obama came into power when we had 2 full blown wars going on.  (Not to mention an economy on the verge of a Great Depression.) Judging by McCain’s proclivities, if he had been elected instead of Obama, we might now be involved in other full blown Mid East wars.  Obama has clearly had the opportunities for getting us involved in such.

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Posted: 12 June 2013 09:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
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TimB - 12 June 2013 09:35 AM

I think that it is fair to contend that Obama is culpable to the extent that he has carried on some counter-productive policies of the Bush administration. However, I think that equating this misguidedness of the George W. administration to the Obama administration is like saying that an apple, that is rotten to the core, is the same as an apple with some spots on it.  So, I think we’re not in the same boat.  I wonder whether your boat might be a little dingy.  (Sorry, I couldn’t resist the pun.)

And while your statement, “... this “terrorism surveillance” wouldn’t even be “necessary” if our country wasn’t responsible for generating so much hatred in the Middle East. If you lived in Afghanistan and watched your brother get blown in another drone mishap, you’d want to join a terrorist group and blow up Americans too.”  seems to have face value, you can’t use it to differentially condemn Obama policies, as our “generating so much hatred in the Middle East” goes back to before Obama was even born.

The use of drones, resulting in the deaths of innocent is terrible.  Full blown war is more terrible. Obama came into power when we had 2 full blown wars going on.  (Not to mention an economy on the verge of a Great Depression.) Judging by McCain’s proclivities, if he had been elected instead of Obama, we might now be involved in other full blown Mid East wars.  Obama has clearly had the opportunities for getting us involved in such.

Your response summarized: “Obama is not as bad as Bush or Cheney or anyone else that came before him. He just continued what they started, is all. And it could have been worse, so be content.

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Posted: 12 June 2013 09:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
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Exposing governmental secrets is a complicated issue.  It can fall anywhere on the spectrum from “treasonously endangering American lives” to “purposely leaking information for politically manipulative prposes” to “heroic whistleblowing that reveals governmental abuses”.

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Posted: 12 June 2013 09:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
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Cloak - 12 June 2013 09:45 AM
TimB - 12 June 2013 09:35 AM

I think that it is fair to contend that Obama is culpable to the extent that he has carried on some counter-productive policies of the Bush administration. However, I think that equating this misguidedness of the George W. administration to the Obama administration is like saying that an apple, that is rotten to the core, is the same as an apple with some spots on it.  So, I think we’re not in the same boat.  I wonder whether your boat might be a little dingy.  (Sorry, I couldn’t resist the pun.)

And while your statement, “... this “terrorism surveillance” wouldn’t even be “necessary” if our country wasn’t responsible for generating so much hatred in the Middle East. If you lived in Afghanistan and watched your brother get blown in another drone mishap, you’d want to join a terrorist group and blow up Americans too.”  seems to have face value, you can’t use it to differentially condemn Obama policies, as our “generating so much hatred in the Middle East” goes back to before Obama was even born.

The use of drones, resulting in the deaths of innocent is terrible.  Full blown war is more terrible. Obama came into power when we had 2 full blown wars going on.  (Not to mention an economy on the verge of a Great Depression.) Judging by McCain’s proclivities, if he had been elected instead of Obama, we might now be involved in other full blown Mid East wars.  Obama has clearly had the opportunities for getting us involved in such.

Your response summarized: “Obama is not as bad as Bush or Cheney or anyone else that came before him. He just continued what they started, is all. And it could have been worse, so be content.

I didn’t say “be content”.  By all means, rail against the machine.  Just don’t differentially blame Obama, as IMO, he is doing a pretty good job considering what he was given to work with.

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Posted: 12 June 2013 11:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
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TimB - 12 June 2013 09:51 AM

Exposing governmental secrets is a complicated issue.  It can fall anywhere on the spectrum from “treasonously endangering American lives” to “purposely leaking information for politically manipulative prposes” to “heroic whistleblowing that reveals governmental abuses”.

If there was a government secret that involved Obama eating children, the motives and outcomes of the whistleblower’s actions would be secondary, and you know that.

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Posted: 12 June 2013 11:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
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TimB - 12 June 2013 09:56 AM

I didn’t say “be content”.  By all means, rail against the machine.  Just don’t differentially blame Obama, as IMO, he is doing a pretty good job considering what he was given to work with.

This is what I’m trying to get you to do. Instead, you are still stuck on the idea that he’s “doing a pretty good job”. A corporate shill is a corporate shill, no matter how much slicker the package is than the last one.

Secondly, I could care less who started it. My concern is the person that is currently in office. We can talk about Bush all day long, but really, it’s been 2 freaking terms. What is the cut off point where we finally start holding Obama responsible for something? When his Wall Street bosses allow it?

[ Edited: 12 June 2013 11:48 AM by Cloak ]
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Posted: 12 June 2013 01:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
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TimB - 12 June 2013 09:56 AM

...(when will)...we finally start holding Obama responsible for something? When his Wall Street bosses allow it?

I think you hit the nail on the head. The particular person who holds the office of POTUS no longer matters. The underlying agenda continues. And sometimes members of an administration are actually part of the agenda-setters, like Cheney. So why fuss about blaming Obama. He’s a figurehead, like Bush Jr., and especially like Reagan. (Bush Sr and Clinton OTOH I have a feeling were more than just figureheads.)

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Posted: 12 June 2013 02:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
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CuthbertJ - 12 June 2013 01:28 PM
TimB - 12 June 2013 09:56 AM

...(when will)...we finally start holding Obama responsible for something? When his Wall Street bosses allow it?

I think you hit the nail on the head. The particular person who holds the office of POTUS no longer matters. The underlying agenda continues. And sometimes members of an administration are actually part of the agenda-setters, like Cheney. So why fuss about blaming Obama. He’s a figurehead, like Bush Jr., and especially like Reagan. (Bush Sr and Clinton OTOH I have a feeling were more than just figureheads.)

I actually agree wholeheartedly here, friend. This is actually what I’m trying to get people to see. It honestly annoys me to no end when I come across discussions in which one side bashes the “fearless leader” of the other side, as if either side is significantly less corrupt than the other. I used to do this, and I finally recognized the glaring hypocrisy in it. The fact of the matter is that 99% of politicians are just commodities like anything else, another product of the “glorious market”.

[ Edited: 12 June 2013 02:14 PM by Cloak ]
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Posted: 12 June 2013 02:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]
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The problem is it takes so much money to run for national office that anyone who holds onto his/her values cannot raise enough money to get elected, therefore we end up with the politicians who most successfully sell their souls.

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