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Your fearless “leader”....
Posted: 12 June 2013 03:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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I actually agree wholeheartedly here, friend. This is actually what I’m trying to get people to see. It honestly annoys me to no end when I come across discussions in which one side bashes the “fearless leader” of the other side, as if either side is significantly less corrupt than the other. I used to do this, and I finally recognized the glaring hypocrisy in it. The fact of the matter is that 99% of politicians are just commodities like anything else, another product of the “glorious market”.


At the expense of sounding like a pure cynic that’s the way the system was created from the beginning. As I’ve stated many times politics is an amoral system but the juniors who enter it have the naive idea that they will somehow live up to their campaign promises until experience rounds their corners and internal deals are made, plus the pressure from lobbies and PACS to conform to the usual compromising, then abandonment of their ideals. the voters who back them, myself included as I campaigned for Obama both times become disillusioned when those promises aren’t met, forcing the pendulum to swing to the opposite political philosophy in the hopes that the party out of power will somehow break the deadlock. The problem now is the ever growing polarization of parties as the extreme wings try to pull the moderates away from the center and true compromise. And the further away we get the more ineffective the congress will be in finding a solution to the economy and our involvement in the Middle East. Our political system is getting dangerously close to breaking unless cooler heads prevail and drag the wingnuts back to the center. I blame the trolls.


Cap’t Jack

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Posted: 12 June 2013 03:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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DarronS - 12 June 2013 02:52 PM

The problem is it takes so much money to run for national office that anyone who holds onto his/her values cannot raise enough money to get elected, therefore we end up with the politicians who most successfully sell their souls.

Yeah I know. This is why I think our political system’s problem is more of an economic one than anything else. Money has a way of stratifying and distorting everything.

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Posted: 12 June 2013 03:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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Thevillageatheist - 12 June 2013 03:01 PM

I actually agree wholeheartedly here, friend. This is actually what I’m trying to get people to see. It honestly annoys me to no end when I come across discussions in which one side bashes the “fearless leader” of the other side, as if either side is significantly less corrupt than the other. I used to do this, and I finally recognized the glaring hypocrisy in it. The fact of the matter is that 99% of politicians are just commodities like anything else, another product of the “glorious market”.


At the expense of sounding like a pure cynic that’s the way the system was created from the beginning. As I’ve stated many times politics is an amoral system but the juniors who enter it have the naive idea that they will somehow live up to their campaign promises until experience rounds their corners and internal deals are made, plus the pressure from lobbies and PACS to conform to the usual compromising, then abandonment of their ideals. the voters who back them, myself included as I campaigned for Obama both times become disillusioned when those promises aren’t met, forcing the pendulum to swing to the opposite political philosophy in the hopes that the party out of power will somehow break the deadlock. The problem now is the ever growing polarization of parties as the extreme wings try to pull the moderates away from the center and true compromise. And the further away we get the more ineffective the congress will be in finding a solution to the economy and our involvement in the Middle East. Our political system is getting dangerously close to breaking unless cooler heads prevail and drag the wingnuts back to the center. I blame the trolls.


Cap’t Jack

No, I don’t see you as a cynic. Just a realist, which I believe to be one of the first steps to locating viable solutions.

When you speak of our political system “breaking”, what exactly do you have in mind?

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Don’t get set into one form, adapt it and build your own, and let it grow, be like water. Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like water. Now you put water in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put water into a bottle it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.

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Posted: 12 June 2013 03:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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When you speak of our political system “breaking”, what exactly do you have in mind?

We now have, and this hasn’t happened since Strom Thurmond’s Dixiecrats, extreme right wing Southerners touting secession, teabaggers who want to return to lassez faire Capitalism and unplugging governmental watchdog agencies, ultra liberals who object to firearm ownership ( personally a moderate on this issue) and both sides screaming about the fourth amendment violations of the present POTUS and previous others to name a few hot button issues all the while millions of dollars are pouring into the campaign chests of both parties in order to push each pet agenda. We used to laugh at the campaign term “gridlock” but now it’s a reality and these issues will never be resolved until the politicians reach a consensus on how to procede. The Reps have the House and the Dems hold the Senate and the Prez is thwarted at envy turn with the exception of Obamacare which the right vows to fight to the death and they have made over 38 attempts so far. And this latest fiasco of government surveillance has everyone on edge, now creating a new crises of fear of our own govnment let alone the terrorists! I don’t think we’ll run amok in the streets but the next election is going to be a slaughterhouse unless the loose ends are tied up, we move on the budget, shut down Gitmo, get the hell out of Afganistan all the while watching China’s interests in the region, cut waaay back on drone use and more tightly control the program, and do something about government and commercial spying on our personal lives. It’s too close to 1984 tactics. As much as I hate to admit it I’m siding with the libertarians in this issue. This is still supposed to be the “land of the free”.

 

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Posted: 12 June 2013 07:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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Thevillageatheist - 12 June 2013 03:40 PM

When you speak of our political system “breaking”, what exactly do you have in mind?

We now have, and this hasn’t happened since Strom Thurmond’s Dixiecrats, extreme right wing Southerners touting secession, teabaggers who want to return to lassez faire Capitalism and unplugging governmental watchdog agencies, ultra liberals who object to firearm ownership ( personally a moderate on this issue) and both sides screaming about the fourth amendment violations of the present POTUS and previous others to name a few hot button issues all the while millions of dollars are pouring into the campaign chests of both parties in order to push each pet agenda. We used to laugh at the campaign term “gridlock” but now it’s a reality and these issues will never be resolved until the politicians reach a consensus on how to procede. The Reps have the House and the Dems hold the Senate and the Prez is thwarted at envy turn with the exception of Obamacare which the right vows to fight to the death and they have made over 38 attempts so far. And this latest fiasco of government surveillance has everyone on edge, now creating a new crises of fear of our own govnment let alone the terrorists! I don’t think we’ll run amok in the streets but the next election is going to be a slaughterhouse unless the loose ends are tied up, we move on the budget, shut down Gitmo, get the hell out of Afganistan all the while watching China’s interests in the region, cut waaay back on drone use and more tightly control the program, and do something about government and commercial spying on our personal lives. It’s too close to 1984 tactics. As much as I hate to admit it I’m siding with the libertarians in this issue. This is still supposed to be the “land of the free”.
Cap’t Jack

As a Libertarian-Socialist, I say let it collapse, then. We’re at the point where it’s almost completely useless now. The way we do things now is so backwards and outdated that it would be laughable if it wasn’t so tragic. Both major parties are like two gangs fighting over territory. It has nothing to do with the people who live in that territory, just the money and power that comes from controlling it. Perhaps a collapse would allow us to rebuild the system in a manner that benefits the people, and not a small group of ruling elite.

[ Edited: 12 June 2013 07:25 PM by Cloak ]
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Posted: 12 June 2013 07:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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Cloak - 12 June 2013 07:21 PM
Thevillageatheist - 12 June 2013 03:40 PM

When you speak of our political system “breaking”, what exactly do you have in mind?

We now have, and this hasn’t happened since Strom Thurmond’s Dixiecrats, extreme right wing Southerners touting secession, teabaggers who want to return to lassez faire Capitalism and unplugging governmental watchdog agencies, ultra liberals who object to firearm ownership ( personally a moderate on this issue) and both sides screaming about the fourth amendment violations of the present POTUS and previous others to name a few hot button issues all the while millions of dollars are pouring into the campaign chests of both parties in order to push each pet agenda. We used to laugh at the campaign term “gridlock” but now it’s a reality and these issues will never be resolved until the politicians reach a consensus on how to procede. The Reps have the House and the Dems hold the Senate and the Prez is thwarted at envy turn with the exception of Obamacare which the right vows to fight to the death and they have made over 38 attempts so far. And this latest fiasco of government surveillance has everyone on edge, now creating a new crises of fear of our own govnment let alone the terrorists! I don’t think we’ll run amok in the streets but the next election is going to be a slaughterhouse unless the loose ends are tied up, we move on the budget, shut down Gitmo, get the hell out of Afganistan all the while watching China’s interests in the region, cut waaay back on drone use and more tightly control the program, and do something about government and commercial spying on our personal lives. It’s too close to 1984 tactics. As much as I hate to admit it I’m siding with the libertarians in this issue. This is still supposed to be the “land of the free”.
Cap’t Jack

As a Libertarian-Socialist, I say let it collapse, then. We’re at the point where it’s almost completely useless now. The way we do things now is so backwards and outdated that it would be laughable if it wasn’t so tragic. Both major parties are like two gangs fighting over territory. It has nothing to do with the people who live in that territory, just the money and power that comes from controlling it. Perhaps a collapse would allow us to rebuild the system in a manner that benefits the people, and not a small group of ruling elite.

Maybe, but in the meanwhile it would probably be a lot worse, and just as likely, similar problems would crop up again, once some of us were able to crawl back up from the collapse.

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Posted: 12 June 2013 07:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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Depends on what the cause of those problems are. I say that it has more to do with the design of our current system itself, more than anything else. We just can’t break out of it right now, because not enough people have found a way to profit from it. That, in a nutshell, explains virtually every single major problem that we are dealing with right now. Profit . Profit. Profit. It doesn’t matter if we have the available resources or labor to efficiently meet the need or solve the problem. No, somebody needs to get paid. A lot. That is what’s wrong. That is what’s always wrong. Until we change this economic system, then nothing will ever happen. Trying to appeal to government is a massive waste of time. It’s just another aspect of the market now. Appealing to government for change really translates to begging Goldman Sachs to stop raping you.

But hasn’t every major sociological evolution been this difficult throughout history? Feudalism, monarchies, all of these systems had a small group of individuals that were benefitting from it, so they fought tooth and nail to keep it that way. I don’t imagine that it will be any easier, but it has to happen, especially if we plan on surviving some of the coming economic and ecological crises around the corner.

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Posted: 12 June 2013 11:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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Also, if we were really following the Nuremburg Principles, most of our presidents would have already been tried, and many of them likely hung.

[ Edited: 12 June 2013 11:38 PM by Cloak ]
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Don’t get set into one form, adapt it and build your own, and let it grow, be like water. Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like water. Now you put water in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put water into a bottle it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.

- Bruce Lee -

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Posted: 13 June 2013 01:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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Was anybody actually surprised about this though? I’m in Canada and even all my rights are delegated to the U.S.‘s privilege to my privacy (phone & Internet). It’s not just any one leader, like Obama, who shoulders any guilt on this behavior. It definitely is partly (mostly) due to our political and economic systematic drive for profit. I don’t see a viable solution to preventing spying from anyone against our will. However, we all can do some things to preserve some lead in preventing private information from being used unfairly.

Dr Phil McGraw suggests that we take a default “false-positive” position to any person accused of child-abuse regardless of its reversal of onus of innocent-until-proven-guilty status we so highly value. When you see some of the examples he gives through his program of how it appears to be something that could have saved many children throughout time, it seems understandable if only you limited the accusation as a cause to motivate investigation. I would disagree that this should hold through justice within a court that follows the accused, however.

So, one way to address the issue and satisfy most, if not all, would be to allow or encourage police forces to be able to have a right to use private information as a motive to initiate investigation but make it illegal in all cases for such evidence gathered by such means to incarcerate or convict anyone its based on. This would put pressure on police to learn how to properly apply real external justifications for their actions. This is already done to some degree. Making it stricter can assure an evolution of the best procedures by trial and error where they lose locking up or convicting real bad people for an adjustment period. This could be extended to all internal and external affairs of the country’s domain of power.

As for corporate spying, we are truly fucked in every area of interest. For example, in every new software EULA, they all unilaterally agree to make them in ways to eliminate privacy rights for everyone. And every EULA declares the right to change their EULA without notice! A revolutionary stance would have to be made to eliminate small-prints and trolling, etc.
This would truly be the harder issue to deal with.

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Posted: 13 June 2013 01:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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Also…

Social evolution will likely steal some of the thunder away from how we eventually perceive personal information. When enough people everywhere publishes their private issues or phone conversations, the inevitable public discoveries of many of them will eventually numb people to the point of the mundane normalcy of accepting each other in the nude, scars and all.

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Posted: 13 June 2013 01:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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Oh… and by then, we can demand that upon agreeing to represent us, our leaders must forgo their own privacy by having cameras installed in every room and follow them everywhere they go—even to the washroom—with free live feeds for anyone to watch 24/7!

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Posted: 13 June 2013 05:00 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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I’m gonna add my $0.02…
And I’m going to add it from a different angle. From this angle:
Do you believe that today’s partisan politics and partisan divides in general are the most amplified since 1859?
The whole nutshell..politicians, religions, small business owners(not large corporations), small people, middle class people, moderately wealthy people,
entertainers, media outlets, etc etc..
I guess I kind of see this.  I certainly see and hear it in the media and from politicians and just plain peers. It appears that it is.
The other night I got to thinking about this and I finally asked myself the most important question on this issue.
Why?  Why are these fundamental partisan/sociological divides hyper-activated now? All the issues are nothing new…None of them!!
So why are the issues becoming more radicalized, more amplified?
This would take several pages, I’ll try to make it brief.
In the above conversation we have seen mention of “it’s all the same, all the Presidents are the same, the agenda is unchanged, Dems or Repubs are just like
Pepsi or Coke.  That’s true enough to be a dynamic in this discussion.  Politics is about business and production and consumerism. Whether your Dem or GOP.
But all the rest is where alot of the side issues have been partisanized. Social issues, labor issues, health issues and economic issues too..like taxes or
regulation.
But it’s always been that way.  So why now is it so radicalized? Why are the issues in your face and my face?
The answer is simple.
The amount of prosperity to go around in this country is shrinking for various reasons. That alone is why people are throwing elbows the way people do in a crowded subway train.
Some of the reasons the amount of prosperity is shrinking are:
1. Through control of legislation the rich are claiming more wealth and treasure(partly automatically because there is less to go around-see the following)
2. The population is getting bigger both nationally and internationally.(and we are getting less of a share in providing for it.)
3. Globalization of economy, and the rise of large developing countries consumers and economies. This is a major factor, that requires it’s own thread.
4. Through No. 3 a sharp decrease in one of the historic economic bulwarks of this country’s economic engine-manufacturing. Or put another way..dependable, decent paying jobs. Wealth is now less tangible and labor created. It is now more based on international investment and trading. Complex trading.
5. Less focus on Nationalism and more focus on partisan issues. From both sides. As we have seen-we have Right-wingers that plan for an uprising or defense against some bogey-man tyrant.(this feeling isn’t that fringe either) And from the Left we have many people who embrace an influx of foreign immigrants based on World Community Values. Both of these are generalized examples. There are more…but they are prevalent. The immigrant case has always been around, but we were always able to absorb them economically. Nationalism is Key to any Nations fitness- Obviously! This has been overshadowed by so many of today’s dynamics on culture and politics.
So..in conclusion…all of these partisan issues have always been around. Religion, social status, labor, culture, taxes, health, sexuality, Race, legislation etc..
They’re more amplified now because the house is getting crowded and there’s less to go around.
Anytime in the past, we as a nation were willing to get along more because there was always going to be more growth. More expansion. I believe that is coming to an end. At least in the foreseeable future…if not permanently.
When everyone has busy hands and food on the table, arguing seems tertiary.
Lot’s of these issues, such as this surveillance thing become major issues because that’s all there is to talk about. There is no real good news coming out of Congress or the Oval Office. They’re stumped!  They got nothing.  Nothing to offer.
So we are going to dwell on The Robert Zimmerman trial. Gun rights. Or the Immigration Bill. Or gay marriage.
Do you know what these four things have in common? None of them are going to benefit any Americans in any tangible way. They’re aren’t going to solve any of the real problems like poverty, crime, unemployment, environment, international relations.
But that’s what our leaders have now.  Just the wedge issues.  Because that’s all there is left. They know the real issue is economic growth.
But they got nothing there…the well is tapped dry.

edited to remove the word “attenuated”.  I thought that meant amplified or more in the forefront.

[ Edited: 13 June 2013 11:40 AM by VYAZMA ]
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Posted: 13 June 2013 11:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
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Social stratification, which is the result of governments and capitalism is the reason for basically everything you’ve just listed. It has taken every problem you’ve mentioned, and accelerated it to ridiculous levels.

While capitalism (of the regulated variety, albeit poorly) has helped to raise the standards of living more equitably, the very opposite is starting to happen now. I think we’ve reached the end of its usefulness, and it is now overstaying its welcome, and causing more harm than help. The same goes for flawed constructs like our government, which is really nothing more than a massive corporation with a huge monopoly. Globalization and consumerism, probably the very thing that’s going to kill us off in the end, is a result of the two above factors.

[ Edited: 15 June 2013 01:06 PM by Cloak ]
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Posted: 13 June 2013 01:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
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Cloak - 07 June 2013 01:28 PM

Obama Admin’s Secret Surveillance Policies

Obama’s Drone Policies and the Many Innocent Deaths (which includes children) It Has Caused

What exactly does it take for people to stop defending this guy? I swear, even if a report came up which said “Obama is now eating children”, some of his loyal fans would still find some way to justify it…..

Just as some people would continue to criticize him if he came up with a cure for cancer. Republicans would say it will raise taxes.

Lois

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Posted: 13 June 2013 04:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
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Lois - 13 June 2013 01:39 PM
Cloak - 07 June 2013 01:28 PM

Obama Admin’s Secret Surveillance Policies

Obama’s Drone Policies and the Many Innocent Deaths (which includes children) It Has Caused

What exactly does it take for people to stop defending this guy? I swear, even if a report came up which said “Obama is now eating children”, some of his loyal fans would still find some way to justify it…..

Just as some people would continue to criticize him if he came up with a cure for cancer. Republicans would say it will raise taxes.

Lois

I’m not a Republican or a Democrat, but I can promise you, most assuredly, Obama will NEVER produce anything as helpful to the people as the cure for cancer. Whatever he produces, if anything at all, will be designed, filtered, watered down, and ultimately corrupted, by his Wall Street bosses who are responsible for giving the final approval for his decisions.

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- Bruce Lee -

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