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Whoa!  Lay Off the Vitamins!
Posted: 12 June 2013 05:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 61 ]
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Lois, that opinion article didn’t explain the difference between the two.  It just said that people taking A, C, E, etc had an increase mortality, but didn’t relate it to the difference between vitamin fortified foods and taking a vitamin supplement.  By all rights, people should be dying from vitamin fortified foods too, because, from what I can tell, it’s the same thing, just put in our foods, sort of like me taking my 14 y.o. cat’s arthritis medication, opening the capsule, and pouring the powder inside it into his can cat food.  Doesn’t seem like any difference to me.

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Posted: 12 June 2013 06:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 62 ]
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Mriana - 12 June 2013 05:27 PM

Lois, that opinion article didn’t explain the difference between the two.  It just said that people taking A, C, E, etc had an increase mortality, but didn’t relate it to the difference between vitamin fortified foods and taking a vitamin supplement.  By all rights, people should be dying from vitamin fortified foods too, because, from what I can tell, it’s the same thing, just put in our foods, sort of like me taking my 14 y.o. cat’s arthritis medication, opening the capsule, and pouring the powder inside it into his can cat food.  Doesn’t seem like any difference to me.

The point of the original OP was “People taking vitamin supplements can have a dramatically increased risk of death.” so I think Lois’ post is certainly appropriate for the topic. I am not sure I would call it an opinion piece either. It simply recaps a bit of the history of vitamins in this country and refers to a couple of sentinel articles concerning vitamin research that address the OP’s statement.

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Posted: 12 June 2013 06:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 63 ]
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macgyver - 12 June 2013 06:35 PM
Mriana - 12 June 2013 05:27 PM

Lois, that opinion article didn’t explain the difference between the two.  It just said that people taking A, C, E, etc had an increase mortality, but didn’t relate it to the difference between vitamin fortified foods and taking a vitamin supplement.  By all rights, people should be dying from vitamin fortified foods too, because, from what I can tell, it’s the same thing, just put in our foods, sort of like me taking my 14 y.o. cat’s arthritis medication, opening the capsule, and pouring the powder inside it into his can cat food.  Doesn’t seem like any difference to me.

The point of the original OP was “People taking vitamin supplements can have a dramatically increased risk of death.” so I think Lois’ post is certainly appropriate for the topic. I am not sure I would call it an opinion piece either. It simply recaps a bit of the history of vitamins in this country and refers to a couple of sentinel articles concerning vitamin research that address the OP’s statement.

However, the article Lois copied and pasted does say “Opinion”.

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Posted: 12 June 2013 06:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 64 ]
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In total, I think the the piece suggested that MEGA-doses of the vitamins were unsafe (and that this is probably because too much antioxidants is not a good thing).  AFAIK, vitamins that are added to foods are not extraordinarily high amounts.

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Posted: 12 June 2013 07:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 65 ]
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Mriana - 12 June 2013 05:27 PM

Lois, that opinion article didn’t explain the difference between the two.  It just said that people taking A, C, E, etc had an increase mortality, but didn’t relate it to the difference between vitamin fortified foods and taking a vitamin supplement.  By all rights, people should be dying from vitamin fortified foods too, because, from what I can tell, it’s the same thing, just put in our foods, sort of like me taking my 14 y.o. cat’s arthritis medication, opening the capsule, and pouring the powder inside it into his can cat food.  Doesn’t seem like any difference to me.

Well, a professional would have to look at the studies, but, presumably, all of the participants were eating fortified foods, but only the ones also taking supplements had the higher mortality rates, so the supplements must be doing something worse than the fortified foods are doing. 

I have to admit that I was one of the people who figured a vitamin pill would make up for not eating 3 squares a day.  I certainly wasn’t eating 3 or 4 servings of vegetables every day.  I never took megadoses and wasn’t all that good at even taking an ordinary MDR vitamin pill every day, so maybe for once my recalcitrance did me some good!

Lois

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Posted: 13 June 2013 03:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 66 ]
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Mriana-By all rights, people should be dying from vitamin fortified foods too, because, from what I can tell, it’s the same thing, just put in our foods, sort of like me taking my 14 y.o. cat’s arthritis medication, opening the capsule, and pouring the powder inside it into his can cat food.  Doesn’t seem like any difference to me.

That’s exactly what it is. As a truck driver I delivered 35 to 55 gallon fiber and steel drums of the stuff to a handful of large, easily recognized
food processors/manufacturers.  Usually 35 gallon fiber drums, filled with a plastic bag that is filled with powders and clearly labeled what chemical it is on the
outside of the barrel along with it’s trade name, and usually it’s vitamin name.
From, the loading dock it goes right to the lab for a quick double check, and then right to the line.
Vitamins.  They’re in our foods, both enriched and purely natural and they’re in our vitamins.  If certain amounts of some chemical causes cancer your getting it one way or the other. 
So the next time someone dies of cancer and everyone says: “Gee, he lived a healthy life no drugs, no junk food, no smoking, didn’t ever go to the doctor.”
The guy probably ate too much kale or peanuts or salmon.
The fortification of our food in the US and other developed nations probably has reduced the amount of disease, underdeveloped children etc to such
an extent that it probably far outweighs any possible risks from cancer. All the children and mothers in ghettos and rural poverty in our nation.
It’s probably cereal, milk and some processed dinner foods keeping them from rickets or other diseases.

All the italicized parts are just my conjecture.

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Posted: 13 June 2013 05:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 67 ]
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VYAZMA - 13 June 2013 03:48 AM

Mriana-By all rights, people should be dying from vitamin fortified foods too, because, from what I can tell, it’s the same thing, just put in our foods, sort of like me taking my 14 y.o. cat’s arthritis medication, opening the capsule, and pouring the powder inside it into his can cat food.  Doesn’t seem like any difference to me.

That’s exactly what it is. As a truck driver I delivered 35 to 55 gallon fiber and steel drums of the stuff to a handful of large, easily recognized
food processors/manufacturers.  Usually 35 gallon fiber drums, filled with a plastic bag that is filled with powders and clearly labeled what chemical it is on the
outside of the barrel along with it’s trade name, and usually it’s vitamin name.
From, the loading dock it goes right to the lab for a quick double check, and then right to the line.
Vitamins.  They’re in our foods, both enriched and purely natural and they’re in our vitamins.  If certain amounts of some chemical causes cancer your getting it one way or the other. 
So the next time someone dies of cancer and everyone says: “Gee, he lived a healthy life no drugs, no junk food, no smoking, didn’t ever go to the doctor.”
The guy probably ate too much kale or peanuts or salmon.
The fortification of our food in the US and other developed nations probably has reduced the amount of disease, underdeveloped children etc to such
an extent that it probably far outweighs any possible risks from cancer. All the children and mothers in ghettos and rural poverty in our nation.
It’s probably cereal, milk and some processed dinner foods keeping them from rickets or other diseases.

All the italicized parts are just my conjecture.

I’m with you, VYAZMA, on this one.  It would seem anyone capable of reason could see this one, yet we are the ones being accused of not using reason. Interesting and seems more like group think, diverting us from seeing this capsule being opened and poured into our food.  “Hey, Suga’Ray, look over there at the catnip mouse while I pour this capsule of (fill in the blank) into your food and mix it together.”  We’re not advocating mega-doses of supplements, but we are saying there isn’t much difference between supplements and vitamin fortified foods.  Before the vitamins were poured into milk, cereals, etc, there were more cases of rickettes, anemia, etc., and at the same time, other things get “poured” into meats, but at the same time, not everyone eats such foods, leaning more towards other things that aren’t fortified, including and esp vegans.

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Posted: 13 June 2013 06:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 68 ]
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While clearly science has an understanding of carcinogenic dosimeter rates in regards to contracting the disease, it isn’t anything closely resembling an exact science.
In fact I think they have radiation more standardized than they do chemicals in regards to dosimeter ratings regarding cancer affliction.
They also know that carcinogenic affliction from chemicals is usually from long term exposure either chronic or sporadically through time.
Exposure to what amounts is less well known…Certainly more is worse, I won’t dispute that.
But what percentage of “more” is worse? Especially when there is no baseline to bounce percentage factors off of?
There is no baseline for Vitamin E being carcinogenic is there? A minimum dose? No I doubt it.
So I repeat it again…who’s to say people aren’t getting cancer from the “natural” vitamin E they have been moderately consuming their whole lives through
unfortified, “natural” foods?
The counter to this again is that, “Well then reason should tell you to eat just the bare essential amount of Vitamin E. Why would you take more?”
Me personally, I don’t see the risk.  First off, I don’t know what my baseline Vitamin E intake is before I take a multi-vitamin. Let’s say it is 100% RDI before my multi.
So then I take a multi-vitamin, effectively doubling my RDI%.  That’s still nowhere close to 400 IUs of Vitamin E as was cited in this study.
So if the study is attempting to create a baseline of Vitamin E toxicology, I’m still nowhere near it with my multi-vitamin.

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Posted: 13 June 2013 06:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 69 ]
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One more thing…that’s if Viatmin E is even carcinogenic in the first place. Did they prove that Vitamin E was carcinogenic?

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Posted: 13 June 2013 09:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 70 ]
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I can’t keep repeating myself here. I have made my points and Mriana and Vyazma, the two of you keep missing them entirely.  Macgyver out.

Edit: Incorrectly singled out Lois when I meant Mriana

[ Edited: 13 June 2013 11:36 AM by macgyver ]
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Posted: 13 June 2013 09:16 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 71 ]
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MacGyver-The point of the original OP was “People taking vitamin supplements can have a dramatically increased risk of death.

What point am I missing?  I think you meant Mriana-not Lois.  Lois is in your camp.
What point?  Dramatically increased chance of death?  We all have a 100% dramatic chance of death.
Death from what? Dramatically increased? Really?
Please tell me what point I’m missing McGyver.  If I am, I want to try to address my inattention please.  Thanks. Sincerely.

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Posted: 13 June 2013 09:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 72 ]
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Mckenzie-I really don’t understand the tone of hostility here. As MacGyver said, you can eat whatever you like and I honestly don’t care. The subject of the thread is whether or not there is reasonable evidence to support the use of vitamin supplements and what are the relative risks and benefits. Having an opinion on that subject, and providing evidence to support that opinion, isn’t telling you how to live or debunking something I don’t like or understand. If you don’t appreciate reasoned and reasonable critique of beliefs you happen to hold, then I think you’re in the wrong forum.

I do appreciate reasoned and reasonable critiques of beliefs I hold. I haven’t seen any truly reasonable critiques.
All I have seen is yet another article extolling or castigating the food or drugs people use. Then it was revealed that the “guinea pigs” were given high doses
of Vitamin E.  Effectively poisoning them.
What does that have to do with me? And my mild multi vitamins?
Nobody has yet touched upon my musings about a baseline carcinogenic dosimeter rate for vita E….

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Posted: 13 June 2013 02:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 73 ]
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Vyazma,

I agree that you don’t seem to be seeing the actual argument MacGyver and I are putting forward. It isn’t that you’re an idiot, that we know what’s good for you better than you, that vitamins are poisons and vitamin-fortified foods are good for you, or that Vitamin E is inherently carcinogenic. All of those are things you seems to be reading into what we’re saying which I don’t honestly believe are there. So I’ll try to make the basic point once more.

1. Most people get the minimum requirement of essential nutrients through their ordinary diet, even if it isn’t an especially healthy diet. There is very little evidence that there is a deficiency that a supplement might fix.
2. Supplements are therefor probably unnecessary and have no benefits for most people. You’ve said in this thread that even if they have some risk down the road, “At least I’m healthy now.” The point is, there is no good reason to think the supplements contribute anything to your health.
3. There is some evidence to support the idea that not only is more not better, more might even be worse. Of course, there is a dose-response relationship, so mega-doses probably carry more risk than smaller doses. If the amount of extra Vitamin Whatever you get is truly small, it likely has no effect on you for good or ill. However, the bottom line is that you seem to think it is helpful and probably not harmful, when the evidence suggests it is probably neither but could just as easily be harmful as beneficial.
4. The bottom line is that the current evidence suggests multivitamin supplements are useless for most people and might carry some risk proportional to dose. Knowing that, everyone is free to do whatever they like. It just sees like the more accurate the information behind our decisions is, the better those decisions are likely to be in achieving our goals. I once took multivitamins because I believed that they would compensate for any deficiencies in my diet. I stopped once I became convinced that the evidence didn’t support that idea. You can do whatever you like.

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Posted: 13 June 2013 03:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 74 ]
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Mriana - 12 June 2013 06:45 PM
macgyver - 12 June 2013 06:35 PM
Mriana - 12 June 2013 05:27 PM

Lois, that opinion article didn’t explain the difference between the two.  It just said that people taking A, C, E, etc had an increase mortality, but didn’t relate it to the difference between vitamin fortified foods and taking a vitamin supplement.  By all rights, people should be dying from vitamin fortified foods too, because, from what I can tell, it’s the same thing, just put in our foods, sort of like me taking my 14 y.o. cat’s arthritis medication, opening the capsule, and pouring the powder inside it into his can cat food.  Doesn’t seem like any difference to me.

The point of the original OP was “People taking vitamin supplements can have a dramatically increased risk of death.” so I think Lois’ post is certainly appropriate for the topic. I am not sure I would call it an opinion piece either. It simply recaps a bit of the history of vitamins in this country and refers to a couple of sentinel articles concerning vitamin research that address the OP’s statement.

However, the article Lois copied and pasted does say “Opinion”.

Yes it did, but it isn’t really an opinion piece.  Articles can land anyplace there’s space for themin a newspaper.  Sometimes where they land can be misleading,  as in this case. (I worked in newsrooms for many years.)

[ Edited: 13 June 2013 03:53 PM by Lois ]
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Posted: 13 June 2013 04:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 75 ]
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mckenzievmd - 13 June 2013 02:16 PM

Vyazma,

I agree that you don’t seem to be seeing the actual argument MacGyver and I are putting forward. It isn’t that you’re an idiot, that we know what’s good for you better than you, that vitamins are poisons and vitamin-fortified foods are good for you, or that Vitamin E is inherently carcinogenic. All of those are things you seems to be reading into what we’re saying….

Yes, I’ve seen that point. I’ve seen that argument on the preceding pages.  Clearly. Just because I don’t subscribe to it doesn’t mean I haven’t seen it or understood it.
I would think my rebuttals are mainly counter point to your arguments…which shows I have understood your main argument.
I think this transcends what we want to consider as evidence.  It’s about lifestyle and how we view apparent or presumed risks towards mortality.
It’s about what each individual wants to put in their body. You’re on a crusade to extinguish what you see as societal errors or whatever.
You’ve got your elaborate phrases about “evidence seems to suggest…”
You flat out ignore the facts.  It’s evidence in your statement about how “even a poor diet ensures all the vitamins and nutrients someone would need.”(paraphrase)
How ridiculous.  Does that include developing children?  Does that take into consideration the fact that that poor diet contains the very same artificially fortified foods that contain the supplements you rail against?
Are you sure you’re even certain you believe the body needs vitamins and minerals?
What do I think would happen to me if I stopped taking my multi-vitamin tomorrow? Nothing.  I get off vitamins for months at a time.  Been off of them for years in the past.  I’d like to think they are doing me good, but I can’t be certain.  Maybe my nails grow a little faster. I never get sick. 
But who knows…maybe they are doing nothing for me.  But somehow I doubt that. Seeing as how Vitamins A B C D E K Iron, Iodine, etc etc are all things we need.
That’s a fact. That we know is a fact! Wow, a little chewable pill that has that stuff in it. Just like cereal or flour or Juice. Whoopie…

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