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Nazi’s and the Christians (Coffee required)
Posted: 28 July 2013 04:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
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Dawes and Young bonds were sold by the German government to pay the debt they owed after WWI.  They were never issued by the churches.  If a church sold a bond to fund itself in some way, it wasn’t a Dawes or a Young bond, and it wasn’t a government bond.  The churches had no authority to tax people.  When a bond is sold, it is bought voluntarily because the buyer expects to be paid interest on the money he’s lending.  That isn’t a tax.  A bond is issued to raise money with the promise that it will be paid back with interest.

LilySmith,

Here are five Dawes Loan Bonds issued by the US banks for the churches, the German Government is not responsible for these bonds the Churches are. The credit the churches used to sell the bonds to the United States citizens was their ability to tax.

St. Petri Church, Bremen 1926
Beuron Benedictine Monastery
Protestant Church (Welfare Inst) 1926 $5M
Roman Catholic Church in Bavaria 1926 $5M
Roman Catholic Church Welfare Institution in Germany 1926 $6M

Bonds like these were not sold for American Churches because they had no proven way to pay back such large loans.

You don’t have to explain what a bond is to me.  I understand the concept very well.  What you do need to do is stop saying the church had anything to do with Dawes and Young bonds, and stop saying the church had the authority to tax people, because both of those are demonstrably false.

Wrong again. I just listed 5 Church bonds with the ability to tax. What more do you want? These bonds are part of the 125 issues of the Dawes and Young Loan.

I think it would help if you spent some time investigating the bonds and the Churches ability to tax. Once you understand the government of Germany in that time period you will understand all the functions conducted by the Church.


Christian churches provided Christian education and helped people as a part of their religion, not as a function of the government.

Wrong again.

How far back in history are we going now to talk about small kingdoms, and how does one town make up a lot of small kingdoms?  You are off on some tangent and I have no idea what you’re talking about, and don’t think I care to figure it out.  It has nothing to do with the rise of the Nazis, their hatred of the Christian Churches and the fact that the Catholic Church was a target of the Nazis not a co-conspirator that helped them run to So. America. The Nazis opposed the churches on ideological terms—both religious and political.  It’s demonstrated in the writings of the Nazis themselves.  You close your eyes to it because you enjoy the conspiracy theory you indulge yourself in.  But the facts and evidence are against you.

I was trying to explain how the churches taxing system came to be. You seen unable to deal with those facts. Just trying to help you out with a little history.
But now I am getting the feeling that you are just playing a game. When you start making statements that have no bearing on the subject and refuse to look at the facts presented then you are not helping discuss the issues. Try and leave your personal beliefs out. I have help write the book on these bonds and have been involved in the last four major lawsuits involving these bonds so if I do not agree with you, you now know why. 

Then you don’t understand the intent of the Nazis.  Let me quote again from the Trials, “The Nazi Party always was predominantly anti-Christian in its ideology. But we who believe in freedom of conscience and of religion base no charge of criminality on anybody’s ideology. It is not because the Nazi themselves were irreligious or pagan, but because they persecuted others of the Christian faith that they become guilty of crime, and it is because the persecution was a step in the preparation for aggressive warfare that the offense becomes one of international consequence. To remove every moderating influence among the German people and to put its population on a total war footing, the conspirators devised and carried out a systematic and relentless repression of all Christian sects and churches.

Again, you are making up you own history base up a prosecutors statement. This was a trial not necessarily the true facts of history. These trials were very politically motivated. 


“‘For the first time in German history the Fuehrer consciously and completely has the leadership of the people in his own hand. With the Party, its components, and attached units the Fuehrer has created for himself and thereby the German Reich leadership an instrument which makes him independent of the church.

This pretty much states that Hitler was able to make a government that was not under the control of the church, for the first time in Germany’s history. That does not say that the churches were still not part of the government. Just like the banks were run by the bankers but Hitler had political control.

All influences which might impair or damage the leadership of the people exercised by the Fuehrer with help of the NSDAP, must “be eliminated. More and more the people must be separated from the churches and their organs, the pastors. Of course, the churches must and will, seen from their viewpoint, defend themselves against this loss of power. But never again must an influence on leadership of the people be yielded to the churches. This (influence) must be broken completely and finally.

Again they are saying the Churches had power. But never again must an influence on leadership of the people be yielded to the churches.

“‘Only the Reich Government and by its direction the Party, its components, and attached units have a right to leadership of the people. Just as the deleterious Sequences of astrologers, seers, and other fakers are estimated and suppressed by the Estate, so must the possibility of church influence also be totally removed. Not until this has happened; does the State leadership have influence on the individual citizens. Not until then are people and Reich secure in their existence for all the future.’”

This is saying that the state and church should be separate. Just like in the U.S.

You said, “No, I said prior to 1941. That is when the Nazis started to move funds and families out of Germany because they knew the war was lost.”

Your timeline is wrong.  The end of the war didn’t come until 1945.  The D-Day invasion by the Allied forces took place on June 6th, 1944 and victory by the Allies was far from certain.

End of the German part of WWII was July 1945.

The people in the know, knew that if America entered the war, Germany would lose. America entered the war in 1941.

I stand by my statement. The bankers and industrialist started moving funds out of Germany in 1941, that’s because they knew the Nazi’s were going to lose. The Nazi’s according the SEC was moving large amounts of funds to places like South America in 1941 because they understood they could not win the war. This was also shown in the stock markets around the world. The price of the Dawes and Young Bonds also stop going down and starting go up in 1941 because it was known that Germany was going to lose the war.

In released documents from the Department of Treasure, the United States and Germany started working together in 1941 on the methods of welfare of food and money for the people of Europe to be ready to implement the minute the war was over. That way there would be less starvation and disruption. 


You said, “But what is not talked about is the pre-war years and the relationship between the Nazis and the Christian Churches.”

From the Trials:  “And how the Party had been securing the Reich from Christian influence, will be proved by such items as this teletype from the Gestapo, Berlin, to the Gestapo, Nuremberg, on July 24, 1938. Let us hear their own account of events in Rottenburg.

“‘The Party on 23 July 1939 from 2100 on carried out the third demonstration against Bishop Sproll. Participants about 2500-3000 were brought in from outside by bus, etc. The Rottenburg populace again did not participate in the demonstration. This town took rather a hostile attitude to the demonstrations. The action got completely out of hand of the Party member responsible for it. The demonstrators stormed the palace, beat in the gates and doors. About 150 to 200 people forced their way into the palace, searched the rooms, threw files out of the windows and rummaged through the beds in the rooms of the palace. One bed was ignited. Before the fire got to the other objects of equipment in the rooms and the palace, the flaming bed could be thrown from the window and the fire extinguished. The Bishop was with Archbishop Groeber of Freiburg and the ladies and gentlemen of his menage in the chapel at prayer. About 25 to 30 people pressed into this chapel and molested those present. Bishop Groeber was taken for Bishop Sproll. He was grabbed by the robe and dragged back and forth. Finally the intruders realized that Bishop Groeber is not the one they are seeking. They could then be persuaded to leave the building. After the evacuation of the palace by the demonstrators I had an interview with Archbishop Groeber who left Rottenburg in the night. Groeber wants to turn to the Fuehrer and Reich Minister of the Interior, Dr. Frick, anew. On the course of the action, the damage done as well as the homage of the Rottenburg populace beginning today for the Bishop I shall immediately hand in a full report, after I am in the act of suppressing counter mass meetings….

“‘In case the Fuehrer has instructions to give in this matter, I request that these be transmitted most quickly….’

“Later, Defendant Rosenberg wrote to Bormann reviewing the proposal of Kerrl as Church Minister to place the Protestant Church under State tutelage and proclaim Hitler its supreme head. Rosenberg was opposed, hinting that nazism was to suppress the Christian Church completely after the war (See also 098-PS).

“The persecution of all pacifist and dissenting sects, such as Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Pentecostal Association, was peculiarly relentless and cruel The policy toward the Evangelical Churches, however, was to use their influence for the Nazis’ own purposes. In September 1933 Mueller was appointed the Fuehrer’s representative with power to deal with the ‘affairs of the Evangelical Church’ in its relations to the State. Eventually, steps were taken to create a Reich Bishop vested with power to control this Church. A long conflict followed, Pastor Niemoller was sent to concentration camp, and extended interference with the internal discipline and administration of the churches occurred.”

Again you have proved that the Nazis did not know or have the ability to arrest the top management of the Church. The most they could do is hassle a few people. In a country of 67,000,000 people this is not a major event.
What you have is the Nazis closing down the political party of the Christians who would have been the direct competitors for leadership of Germany.

Kind of like what Obama has been doing with the IRS.

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Posted: 01 August 2013 10:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
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Just got this email from the lawyers today. This is a step in getting the information from the Catholic Church in working with the Nazis. 

VATICAN CITY: A formal request has been made to Vatican Bank president, Ernst von Freyberg, to audit approximately 30 current and former Vatican Bank accounts that were identified as having laundered Holocaust era assets from the Balkans.  The account information was gathered from several sources including government reports and the testimony of former Special Agent William Gowen who served in Rome in 1946-1947. The request comes immediately after the Vatican Bank’s current bid for transparency which includes a new website, an ongoing audit of private accounts and the appointment of several Vatican Commissions to combat money laundering at the tarnished institution.
Dr. Jonathan Levy, The attorney for several thousand claimants, Holocaust victims, their heirs, and organizations, has also asked the European Union Ombudsman and the European Commission to lend their good offices to the effort since the Vatican City State is an associate member of the Euro Zone.  The funds at stake were derived from the Ustasha Treasury, consisting of gold and valuable looted from Yugoslavia during the Second World War and deposited at the Vatican Bank in 1946.  The new Vatican Bank website states that the bank also known as Institute for Religious Works is under the jurisdiction and laws of the Vatican City and its courts.  Previously, the EU Commission had abstained from becoming involved claiming there were doubts as to the jurisdiction involved.

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Posted: 24 September 2013 09:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
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Austin Cline wrote in About.com
http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/p/NaziChristian.htm

Adolf Hitler & Christian Nationalism:

A popular image of the Nazis is that they were fundamentally anti-Christian while devout Christians were anti-Nazi. The truth is that German Christians supported the Nazis because they believed that Adolf Hitler was a gift to the German people from God. German Christianity was a divinely sanctioned religious movement which combined Christian doctrine and German character in a unique and desirable manner: True Christianity was German and True German-ness was Christian.

Christian anti-Semitism:

Anti-Semitism was an important aspect of the Nazi state, but the Nazis didn’t invent it; instead, they drew upon centuries of Christian anti-Semitism and extensive anti-Semitic theology in Germany’s Christian community. The Nazis believed that Jewishness was more than just a religion, a position which was supported by religious leaders who supplied the Nazis with baptismal and marriage records to help identify converted Jews.

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Posted: 28 September 2013 07:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
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MikeYohe - 17 June 2013 03:58 PM

Nazi’s and the Christians

In America we have Christian movements. But the Christian political parties are non-existent; they work quietly inside of the Republican and Democratic Parties. That because our government made a deal with them. They are allowed to be tax exempt only if they do not run political parties. A little bit of that separation of State and religion.

In Germany the Christians or mainly Germany’s Roman Catholic population controlled the Center Party. The Protestants stayed away from the Center Party. And it was this battle for political power that opened the door for groups like the Nazi Party.

The Nazi’s were not a religious movement, just a political party; therefore the Center Party did not look at the Nazis as having any strength behind them.

The Nazis started out as a political movement, just like the Zionist today. Nothing got done in Germany unless it had the backing of the Christian coalition. It is still that way today in Germany. These political alliances go back to the beginning of the Nazi Party.  In other words, if the Christian political parties did not want the Nazi Party to exist, they would have been gone.

After WWI , hyper inflation hit Germany. A lifetime’s retirement savings for a worker could only buy a cup or two of coffee. In a 10 month period the US Dollar went from 4 Marks to the Dollar to 4.2 billion Marks to the Dollar.

The greatest movement of wealth at that time in history was the money from the United States to Germany. The Dawes & Young Loans of 1924-30, over $2B went to Germany.

And not without strings attached.
  Many items the US made Germany comply with to get the loans went against the churches and governments management ways of Germany. I’ll list a couple big ones.
1.  Germany had to implement communist reforms in the workplace in that the labor unions had to be managed by the workers and not the company.
2.  Overtime for men only, after 40 hours of work in a week, another communist idea.
3.  Germany had to outlaw slavery all together in Germany, against the churches thinking.
4.  Germany had to move the banking system to the private sector like in the United States.
5.  No citizen was bound to disclose his religious convictions to the government.


Some of the money we loaned to the German Government went directly to the churches.
And there were a few loans made directly to the German churches. For example;
St. Petri Church, Bremen 1926
Beuron Benedictine Monastery
Protestant Church (Welfare Inst) 1926 $5M
Roman Catholic Church in Bavaria 1926 $5M
Roman Catholic Church Welfare Institution in Germany 1926 $6M

In reading the conditions of the loans to the churches I was surprised that the loans were backed by the churches ability to tax the people. If needed to pay the bonds the churches had the ability to raise the taxes on the people under their tax authority by up to 10 percent of their income for just the payment on the bonds.

How could this be?
In Germany the Churches are allowed to employ civil servants and to levy taxes on its members and to directly collect the tax. In other words Germany is sharing its sovereignty with the Churches. Today two-thirds of Germany’s population pays the church tax. And today other groups are allowed to charge a tax. Like Jewish synagogues, the Salvation Army, the Latter Day Saints, and the German Humanist Association. These taxes are deducted against the Federal income tax. Yes, I know what you’re thinking, German Humanist charging a church tax.

Point being that the churches and state was intertwined.

Now back to the topic, the first power move by the German Government (the Nazi party and the Christian Churches) was to take back the control of the independent banking system the US required Germany to setup. If the Christian Churches did not want the Nazi Party to take the banking back, Hitler would of never had enough power to do it on their own and without the banking he could not have started WWII.

History tells us that the Church Tax was use in the U.S., George Washington and others backed the tax. It was people like Thomas Jefferson that repelled the tax. Then other colonies followed, some took a long time to change.

It is my option that the German Churches were afraid to oppose the Nazi Party for fear of losing its tax system.  I think the churches always knew what was going on in Germany. They were to much involve in management and political issues not to know.

And the number of Christians did not go down because of the Nazi Political Party, so most of the Nazi’s were most likely Christians.

Point Being – Let’s keep the churches out of the political offices and elections in the U.S.

Am I missing anything?

Hi! ... Very interesting post. Being German, let me add my comments.

I totally agree that church / state separation is the best thing political ever. No European nation has this in written form. In some sense or another Europe is still “Christian”, despite its secularity.

In regard to WWII though, although you’re correct in everything you say, there are Christians and there are Christians. The ones you mention I call the “gray people”, as they go along at wish, and that’s the majority. But there were Christians, Protestant and Catholic, that resisted Hitler. In the Catholic instance, being an “international organization”, it was sooner, the resistance that is, but also less effective. The Vatican, and I always allow for the benefit of doubt, was not sure how to deal with Hitler, whether he was only, as hoped for, an enemy of communism and capitalism, or whether he was indeed evil. Protestants, on the other hand, tied to state and church, going back centuries in that mindset, were less repulsed at first, some even supporting the Nazis. The Confessing Church, when it split from the German Church, were the real Protestant Christians, willing to die, as they did.

Your point is a very good one though; church and state must not be mingled, and secondly, that “gray Christian majority” really did make things possible. Without them, Hitler would have kept painting postcards. - Fucked up reality. All these “nice people” really created the holocaust. - Very, very good thing to remember that. I think we Germans did. Sometimes even too much, wallowing in self-hatred. But it’s still good to remember these things, and very hopefully keep them from happening again.

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