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Why other countries are not playing along with the US regarding Snowden.
Posted: 29 June 2013 10:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 46 ]
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George - 29 June 2013 09:39 PM

Just like Chosky, you seem to understand policits—which probably doens’t account for much, except for politics. But I guess it’s fun.

Hi George,

Would you please elaborate?

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Posted: 30 June 2013 08:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 47 ]
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TromboneAndrew - 28 June 2013 09:34 PM

Maybe it’s just me, but whenever I see the word “neocon” I am strongly inclined to note a similarity to the Nazis of Godwin’s Law.


http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm
from 1997

You may find these pretty words, but, as they say,
the rest is history and it’s an ugly one
of compounding losses and damage that will never get healed.

Our aim is to remind Americans of these lessons and to draw their consequences for today. Here are four consequences:

• we need to increase defense spending significantly if we are to carry out our global
responsibilities today and modernize our armed forces for the future;

• we need to strengthen our ties to democratic allies and to challenge regimes hostile to our interests and values;

• we need to promote the cause of political and economic freedom abroad;

• we need to accept responsibility for America’s unique role in preserving and extending an international order friendly to our security, our prosperity, and our principles.

Such a Reaganite policy of military strength and moral clarity may not be fashionable today. But it is necessary if the United States is to build on the successes of this past century and to ensure our security and our greatness in the next.

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Posted: 30 June 2013 09:17 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 48 ]
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“neocon” (Neoconservative) refers to real people and real ideas and real bad influences and decisions

Bush and the Neocon Termites are Destroying the US Government from Inside and Out
by Rob Kall -  http://www.opednews.com/Kall_bush_and_neoconTermites_are_destroy.htm

Our military is now run by neocons who were formerly members of the Project for a New American Century (PNAC). It is no longer a fighting force designed to protect the US and friends. It is now an aggressive pre-emptive attack force, being redesigned so it is adept at implementing the urges to empire of egghead Zionist zealots. (This is no anti-semitic remark. I am Jewish. The actions of Perle, Wolfowitz, Feith and other radical, extremist zionist neocons are not consistent with the politics, policies or attitudes of any of the Jews I know. Most American Jews want a safe middle east where there is peace and fairness. The violence on both sides is intolerable.)

Here’s an interesting one that looks at the “neocon” label

Charles Krauthammer And The How Neocons Destroyed The GOP
FEBRUARY 18, 2013 BY CHRISTOPHER MANION

http://www.westernjournalism.com/charles-krauthammer-and-the-how-neocons-destroyed-the-gop/

more recently

M.J. Rosenberg: The Failed Neocon Attempt to Destroy an American Anti-war Organization  
May 5, 2013 |  by M.J. Rosenberg, Special Correspondent

http://www.washingtonspectator.org/index.php/BREAKING-VIEWS/epic-fail-the-neocon-attempt-to-destroy-an-american-antiwar-organization.html

and another blast from the past (2007)

The Neoconservative Threat to American Freedom
http://www.creators.com/opinion/paul-craig-roberts/the-neoconservative-threat-to-american-freedom.html

The Bush-Cheney White House, which told the American people in 2003 that the Iraqi invasion would be a three- to six-week affair, now tells us that the U.S. occupation is permanent. Forever.

Attentive Americans — of which, alas, there are so few — had already concluded that the occupation was permanent. Permanence is the obvious message from the massive and fortified U.S. embassy under construction in Iraq and from the large permanent military bases that the Bush regime is building in Iraq.

Bush regime propagandists have created a false analogy with “the Korean model” in their effort to sell the permanent occupation of Iraq as necessary for Iraq’s security…

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Posted: 30 June 2013 10:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 49 ]
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Cloak-I have no idea what really happened with 9/11. Evidence seems to lend more toward it being a straightforward terrorist attack that could have been easily prevented if so many different parties didn’t’ screw up along the way. There are some suspicious things here and there, but if I was backed into a corner and forced to give my assessment, I would have to say that it probably wasn’t an inside job. There are a lot of problems with the conspiracy version. Could they have known about it beforehand? Maybe, but there’s very little concrete evidence available to draw a conclusion on.

And your so self-centered enough to think that it really matters whether you know what really happened or not. As if your going to hold someones feet to the fire about it. No, like others you base all of your vitriol and subjective criticism on the idea that “America is consciously driven entity that is suffering from “blowback” that She deserves. And you get to stand by idly saying “I told you so!”. Even though, 1 you’re just another guppy in the Ocean, and 2…like I said your just as much a part of the system as the next guy. I went through this phase of thinking. I had the vitriol too. The misguided axe to grind. The idea that I was on the outside looking in.  No, I’m just another consumer like you and everyone else. 

I skipped the Noam Chomsky bit.  I’ve listened to him before.  I like his point of view.
I don’t follow video links.  Why would you think I’m going to sit and watch six minutes of Chomsky or anyone else.

Aside from all of that, when it comes to my perspective towards government, we have to start with the fact that our leaders (nearly all of them) have demonstrated, almost consistently, that they are VERY difficult to trust. This includes Obama.

What have they done to misplace your trust?  All of the things they do have been done since the times of the Romans at least.  What’s new?
Politics is ALWAYS  Back Room deals and secrets.

I had to take a look at the accumulation of the evidence presented by both radicals on the left and on the right to come to the conclusion….

Seriously re-read this statement of yours and re-analyze it.  Let me be more specific…you culled together the ideas of RADICALS from the left and right and came to a conclusion?  That is obvious in your expressions in this forum.  Earlier you wanted to know how people can come together. You are never going to get people to come together when you get your information from the radical left or right. Getting people together is going to come from the middle. Somewhere in the middle is where most of the truth lies. Hyperbole is a word derived from geometry..it means the farthest point away from the center. Hyperbolic.(maybe you knew this.)
The vast majority of people want to be contented consumers. That’s all. That’s in the middle. The ones on the hyperbolic points want to be the producers of what the people in the middle consume.

When people try to convince me that what the government is doing is for my best interest, I have to admit that it is EXTREMELY difficult to accept that sometimes. Sure, there are some times when they do help us, but my assessment of the situation is that it is becoming less and less the norm.

And I can assure you that you are going through a charged phase in your life, in your political social/consciousness.
In other threads and here I have tried to explain the reasons for this. It’s your age( late 20’s early 30s?) the amount of “information” you have access to, the actual changing dynamics of Real politics and economy. And this last one; the Real Politic and Economy thing; there is no sense bitching about it.
It’s like the tectonic plates moving under the crust of the Earth.
And I know this is all metaphysical. But it’s true. If you want to bring up specific current policy debates that actually may affect us that’s fine too.
But ranting about how you got sticker shock and buyers remorse about Obama, or how there’s a big bogeyman that no one can trust.
These type comments call for a metaphysical answer.

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Posted: 30 June 2013 11:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 50 ]
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I hear you, friend, and I respect your perspective.

Anyways….I didn’t realize that six minutes was so monstrously long. I thought it was reasonable, lol. Oh well.

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- Bruce Lee -

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Posted: 30 June 2013 11:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 51 ]
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Cloak - 30 June 2013 11:32 AM

I hear you, friend, and I respect your perspective.

Anyways….I didn’t realize that six minutes was so monstrously long. I thought it was reasonable, lol. Oh well.

Cool.  I’ve probably seen it anyways. or heard it. Or heard a parallel viewpoint.
Thanks for having patience with my patronizing tone.  I don’t think I’m better or smarter than you.
It’s just the way I argue.
I respect your perspective too.  I bet we agree on nearly everything.
Like you said….I think the vast majority of us common folks agree on everything that matters. 
But I have a feeling that you and I probably even agree on finer points.
It’s that hyperbole from the outside that keeps everyone from getting along.

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Posted: 30 June 2013 11:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 52 ]
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VYAZMA - 30 June 2013 11:47 AM

Thanks for having patience with my patronizing tone.  I don’t think I’m better or smarter than you.
It’s just the way I argue.

For a second, I thought I had wandered into a courtroom and was being shouted at by Col. Jessep.

If you don’t know what I’m talking about, PLEASE click here.

wink

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Don’t get set into one form, adapt it and build your own, and let it grow, be like water. Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like water. Now you put water in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put water into a bottle it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.

- Bruce Lee -

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Posted: 30 June 2013 03:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 53 ]
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Neoconservatism, IMO, is a highly misunderstood variant of conservatism. Personally, I’ll take neoconservatives over the far right-wing types who like to claim the mantle of “true conservatism” for themselves any day.

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Posted: 01 July 2013 01:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 54 ]
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LogicMan - 30 June 2013 03:09 PM

Neoconservatism, IMO, is a highly misunderstood variant of conservatism. Personally, I’ll take neoconservatives over the far right-wing types who like to claim the mantle of “true conservatism” for themselves any day.

I’d like to hear your further thoughts on the distinction. I think you would have some good insight into this. I hope.
But start a new thread.

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Posted: 02 July 2013 08:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 55 ]
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Meanwhile back in Russian:

Published: July 1, 2013 at 9:56 PM   |  UPI.com
Snowden breaks silence during asylum quest to slam Obama

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News/2013/07/02/Russia-says-NSA-leaker-Snowden-withdrew-request-for-asylum/UPI-69161372739400/


MOSCOW, July 1 (UPI)—Fugitive U.S. intelligence leak source Edward Snowden broke his silence Monday to accuse President Obama of using the “old, bad tools of political aggression.”

Snowden, who is holed up in Moscow while he seeks a country that will grant him political asylum, charged in a statement posted on WikiLeaks.com the leader of the world’s most powerful country has been “pressuring” other countries to shun him.

“On Thursday, President Obama declared before the world that he would not permit any diplomatic ‘wheeling and dealing’ over my case,” Snowden wrote. “Yet now it is being reported that after promising not to do so, the president ordered his vice president to pressure the leaders of nations from which I have requested protection to deny my asylum petitions.

“This kind of deception from a world leader is not justice, and neither is the extralegal penalty of exile. These are the old, bad tools of political aggression. Their purpose is to frighten, not me, but those who would come after me.”

He went on to say while the United States has a history of being “one of the strongest defenders of the human right to seek asylum,” the Obama administration “has now adopted the strategy of using citizenship as a weapon.”

“Although I am convicted of nothing, it has unilaterally revoked my passport, leaving me a stateless person,” Snowden continued. “Without any judicial order, the administration now seeks to stop me exercising a basic right. A right that belongs to everybody. The right to seek asylum.”

Snowden then put himself in the category of whistle-blowers Bradley Manning and Thomas Drake.

“We are stateless, imprisoned, or powerless,” he said, adding the Obama administration is “afraid of an informed, angry public demanding the constitutional government it was promised—and it should be.”

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Posted: 02 July 2013 12:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 56 ]
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CC, you really adore this guy huhn?
The title of this thread is rapidly changing to “Why other countries are not playing along with Snowden.”
The guy is a US citizen still…he can come home anytime he wants.  Why do I get the feeling that is what’s going to happen.

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Posted: 02 July 2013 03:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 57 ]
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VYAZMA - 02 July 2013 12:21 PM

The guy is a US citizen still…he can come home anytime he wants.  Why do I get the feeling that is what’s going to happen.

Try getting from Canada to the U.S. without a valid passport.

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Posted: 02 July 2013 06:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 58 ]
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VYAZMA - 02 July 2013 12:21 PM

CC, you really adore this guy huhn?
The title of this thread is rapidly changing to “Why other countries are not playing along with Snowden.”
The guy is a US citizen still…he can come home anytime he wants.  Why do I get the feeling that is what’s going to happen.

You are being unfair, perhaps even emotional

I simply don’t understand why he’s become USA’s enemy number one and I don’t think anyone can really explain
beyond: that’s the way it is son.

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Posted: 02 July 2013 07:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 59 ]
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Now the New American Century draft dodging maniacs

Founding Fathers:
Elliott Abrams   Gary Bauer   William J. Bennett   Jeb Bush

Dick Cheney   Eliot A. Cohen   Midge Decter   Paula Dobriansky   Steve Forbes

Aaron Friedberg   Francis Fukuyama   Frank Gaffney   Fred C. Ikle

Donald Kagan   Zalmay Khalilzad   I. Lewis Libby   Norman Podhoretz

Dan Quayle   Peter W. Rodman   Stephen P. Rosen   Henry S. Rowen

Donald Rumsfeld   Vin Weber   George Weigel   Paul Wolfowitz

summation WIKI (Project for the New American Century):

The Project for the New American Century (PNAC) was an American think tank based in Washington, D.C. established in 1997 as a non-profit educational organization founded by William Kristol and Robert Kagan. The PNAC’s stated goal is “to promote American global leadership.”[1] Fundamental to the PNAC were the view that “American leadership is both good for America and good for the world” and support for “a Reaganite policy of military strength and moral clarity.”[2] With its members in numerous key administrative positions, the PNAC exerted influence on high-level U.S. government officials in the administration of U.S. President George W. Bush and affected the Bush Administration’s development of military and foreign policies, especially involving national security and the Iraq War.[3][4]


That’s a whole ‘nother story mad

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Posted: 02 July 2013 07:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 60 ]
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citizenschallenge.pm - 02 July 2013 06:58 PM
VYAZMA - 02 July 2013 12:21 PM

CC, you really adore this guy huhn?
The title of this thread is rapidly changing to “Why other countries are not playing along with Snowden.”
The guy is a US citizen still…he can come home anytime he wants.  Why do I get the feeling that is what’s going to happen.

You are being unfair, perhaps even emotional

I simply don’t understand why he’s become USA’s enemy number one and I don’t think anyone can really explain
beyond: that’s the way it is son.

Yeah, I decided to leave it alone, because there doesn’t appear to be an answer that satisfies VYAZMA in either of these threads.

-shrugs-

[ Edited: 02 July 2013 07:12 PM by Cloak ]
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Don’t get set into one form, adapt it and build your own, and let it grow, be like water. Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like water. Now you put water in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put water into a bottle it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.

- Bruce Lee -

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