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Detroit
Posted: 27 July 2013 02:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
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George - 26 July 2013 06:45 AM

Oh yes, Detroit, the consequences of white flight.

It wasn’t only whites who fled Detroit.  It was the failure of the American auto industry that caused the drop in population and everything followed from that.

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Posted: 27 July 2013 11:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
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It’s important to note that bankruptcy is being filed in the Detroit City limits. The incorporation of Detroit itself.
This doesn’t include the surrounding suburbs and towns which would be referred to as Metro Detroit.
Like every major city in the US practically, “White Flight” did occur in Detroit. It all started in the late 50s or so. 
Whites who had gained autos, more discretionary cash, and a desire to move out of crowded cities for example moved out to the burbs.
These would be the mainly white folk who reaped the benefits of a Post-WWII economic boom.
At the same time the centralization of the auto industry in Detroit also moved out. Moved out far and wide.
So less affluent people were left in a city that had less and less jobs.
Today almost nobody lives in Detroit(for purposes of this discussion).  Those that do certainly aren’t any real tax base.
White Flight alone doesn’t explain the decline. Job flight is also to blame.
The old way of having block upon block of streets with tightly crammed houses in the city limits only works when there are nearby factories to supply the
inhabitants with jobs. Today many of these type neighborhoods are now ghettos across the US.
That’s what you’re left with…a Detroit.
The people that moved into these houses that other people left slowly found that jobs just kept dwindling and dwindling.
In this instance, I mean blacks moving into the old white housing stock. It should have been a good progression, but by the time that was taking place
at a good pace(the 60s and 70s) the jobs were already steeply declining. So poor people without jobs makes for a bad tax base.
This is Detroit, Cincinnati, Toledo, Buffalo, Milwaukee, etc etc…
This is to say nothing of the existing city infrastructure(housing, sewers, bridges, electric, water etc) that was built between 1870 and 1930 or so.
Another massive burden on an incorporated city that is seeing it’s tax revenues decline.
Each of these places had their own adjustments and histories. They each attempted to adjust to the changing economy with varied results.
But they all have the same old “inner city” neighborhoods with the old crumbling white housing stock that is now “ghetto-ized”.
It’s really just a result of factories dispersing to other places:  Away from concentrated “industrial towns”, moving to more “labor friendly” areas, moving to other countries, or just closing down due to obsolescence.
This whole social engineering thing is a result of obsolescence.
Detroit is obsolete. Some cities have better luck in adjusting to obsolescence better than others.

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Posted: 28 July 2013 03:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
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VYAZMA - 27 July 2013 11:58 AM

Detroit is obsolete. Some cities have better luck in adjusting to obsolescence better than others.

This is so true.

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Posted: 28 July 2013 02:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
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Lois - 27 July 2013 02:49 AM
George - 26 July 2013 06:45 AM

Oh yes, Detroit, the consequences of white flight.

It wasn’t only whites who fled Detroit.  It was the failure of the American auto industry that caused the drop in population and everything followed from that.

No, the population loss was happening before the auto industry tanked. Sure, the declining auto industry didn’t help when it happened, but that wasn’t the only factor. As has been said already here, there was basically a confluence of tough events for the city.

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Posted: 28 July 2013 11:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
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TromboneAndrew - 28 July 2013 02:57 PM
Lois - 27 July 2013 02:49 AM
George - 26 July 2013 06:45 AM

Oh yes, Detroit, the consequences of white flight.

It wasn’t only whites who fled Detroit.  It was the failure of the American auto industry that caused the drop in population and everything followed from that.

No, the population loss was happening before the auto industry tanked. Sure, the declining auto industry didn’t help when it happened, but that wasn’t the only factor. As has been said already here, there was basically a confluence of tough events for the city.

That’s true. But the American auto industry made Detroit, it was its life’s blood.  As it died, Detroit began to die. There is always a “confluence of tough events,” but in this case we know what set them off. (We know what knocked down the first domino.) Do you think Detroit would be dying today if the auto industry had stayed viable there?

Lois

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Posted: 29 July 2013 09:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
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Lois - 28 July 2013 11:31 PM
TromboneAndrew - 28 July 2013 02:57 PM
Lois - 27 July 2013 02:49 AM
George - 26 July 2013 06:45 AM

Oh yes, Detroit, the consequences of white flight.

It wasn’t only whites who fled Detroit.  It was the failure of the American auto industry that caused the drop in population and everything followed from that.

No, the population loss was happening before the auto industry tanked. Sure, the declining auto industry didn’t help when it happened, but that wasn’t the only factor. As has been said already here, there was basically a confluence of tough events for the city.

That’s true. But the American auto industry made Detroit, it was its life’s blood.  As it died, Detroit began to die. There is always a “confluence of tough events,” but in this case we know what set them off. (We know what knocked down the first domino.) Do you think Detroit would be dying today if the auto industry had stayed viable there?

Lois

Yes.

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Posted: 29 July 2013 11:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
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How can you possibly think that Trombone?  I’m curious.

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Posted: 29 July 2013 11:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
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TromboneAndrew - 28 July 2013 02:57 PM

No, the population loss was happening before the auto industry tanked. Sure, the declining auto industry didn’t help when it happened, but that wasn’t the only factor. As has been said already here, there was basically a confluence of tough events for the city.

The population started declining in the late 50s.  The auto industry started declining at the same time.(not declining…just spreading out away from Detroit. the decline starts big time in the 80s.)
Much of that had to be relocating auto workers to newly opened plants like in Ohio, New Jersey, California to name some.

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Posted: 29 July 2013 11:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
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VYAZMA - 29 July 2013 11:23 AM
TromboneAndrew - 28 July 2013 02:57 PM

No, the population loss was happening before the auto industry tanked. Sure, the declining auto industry didn’t help when it happened, but that wasn’t the only factor. As has been said already here, there was basically a confluence of tough events for the city.

The population started declining in the late 50s.  The auto industry started declining at the same time.(not declining…just spreading out away from Detroit. the decline starts big time in the 80s.)
Much of that had to be relocating auto workers to newly opened plants like in Ohio, New Jersey, California to name some.

But the question was would Detroit have died if the auto industry had remained viable and IN Detroit.  We know what actually happened. The industry not only began dying, it was also moving out of Detroit, causing Detroit’s decline on two fronts. The question was would what have happened to Detroit if the auto industry had stayed viable and stayed in Detroit?

Lois

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Posted: 29 July 2013 12:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
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Lois - 27 July 2013 02:49 AM
George - 26 July 2013 06:45 AM

Oh yes, Detroit, the consequences of white flight.

It wasn’t only whites who fled Detroit.  It was the failure of the American auto industry that caused the drop in population and everything followed from that.

Was manufacturing junk designed to become obsolete success?

The Laws of Physics do not change style year to year and human beings do not change shape.  So how did good engineering mean redesigning cars?  The 21st century will see the crash of stupid consumerism.

What will these <$200 tablets do to the education industry?  Will they kill university towns within 20 years.

psik

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Posted: 29 July 2013 12:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]
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Lois-The question was would what have happened to Detroit if the auto industry had stayed viable and stayed in Detroit?

That’s obvious.  Detroit would still be thriving.
Detroit and Michigan in general have seen a massive decrease in jobs and especially manufacturing jobs.
Forget about just GM, Chrysler and Ford, there were thousands of other plants in that area that made auto parts.
Fasteners, glass, sheetmetal, tubing, hoses, tool and die, machinery-everything.
Detroit sprung up in the 30s. Concurrent with the car boom.
I think it’s reasonable to say that Detroit was not unlike a giant, industrial town a la USSR..say Magnitogorsk or others.
A large town, with a generally specialized industry that kept everyone working and prosperous. It also sprang in the 30s, an era of note for that kind of civil engineering I think. Be it USSR or US. Detroit was definitely a well spring of organized labor. A forerunner in many ways. Also current with those times.
A large bureaucratic system also grew with it too.
When for all of the different reasons, that industry started to decentralize, it slowly left more and more workers and bureaucrats and businesses out of jobs.
That system was destined to change.  It became obsolete.
All of this is to say nothing of another large dynamic…the importation of cars and parts from Japan starting in the mid 70s effectively.
Another nail in the coffin. Not just for Detroit.

[ Edited: 29 July 2013 01:00 PM by VYAZMA ]
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Posted: 29 July 2013 02:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]
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psikeyhackr - 29 July 2013 12:37 PM
Lois - 27 July 2013 02:49 AM
George - 26 July 2013 06:45 AM

Oh yes, Detroit, the consequences of white flight.

It wasn’t only whites who fled Detroit.  It was the failure of the American auto industry that caused the drop in population and everything followed from that.

Was manufacturing junk designed to become obsolete success?

The Laws of Physics do not change style year to year and human beings do not change shape.  So how did good engineering mean redesigning cars?  The 21st century will see the crash of stupid consumerism.

What will these <$200 tablets do to the education industry?  Will they kill university towns within 20 years.

psik

Manufacturing, the economy, the world, will comtinue to evolve, just as humans do.  There is nothing anyone can do to stop it or change it. Some interference might change it a little, but not enough to make a difference to its natural evolution. If manufacturing junk (your term) is what humans want to do, they will do it and the consequences of that will unfold. Que sera, sera.

If conditions lead to university towns dying, that’s what will happen, and humans will be forced to adjust, as has been the case since the beginning of human life.

What would you do to change it if one person could change the force of humanity?

Lois

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Posted: 29 July 2013 03:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]
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Lois - 29 July 2013 02:35 PM

What would you do to change it if one person could change the force of humanity?

Lois

Mandatory double-entry accounting in the schools.

With all of this talk about education for decades how is it that English Lit seems to be mandatory for four years in high school but I don’t even know if my high school had an accounting course way back when.

But accounting would mean that everyone would know what depreciation is.  So how is it that our economists don’t specify the total for Demand Side Depreciation every years?  They don’t even talk about NET Domestic Product though it gets about half a page in 400 page economics books.  Capitalism running on defective algebra.  LOL

http://www.spectacle.org/1199/wargame.html

If everyone knew to concentrate on Net Worth instead of income and jobs How much junk would have no market and therefore never be manufactured.  But then I went to engineering school and never heard about planned obsolescence though I had stopped going to auto shows before I graduated from high school.  But people refusing to buy junk would have affected Detroit anyway.  Difficult to extrapolate the effect though.  But it is also curious that we have cheap computers everywhere but accounting was one of the first things corporations were doing with computers in the 50s and 60s.  My Nexus 7 tablet is more powerful than any of the IBM computers I was trained on in the 80s.  But I am supposed to play Angry Birds with it.

A pretty fatalistic view you have there.

psik

[ Edited: 29 July 2013 04:04 PM by psikeyhackr ]
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Posted: 29 July 2013 09:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]
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Lois - 29 July 2013 11:32 AM
VYAZMA - 29 July 2013 11:23 AM
TromboneAndrew - 28 July 2013 02:57 PM

No, the population loss was happening before the auto industry tanked. Sure, the declining auto industry didn’t help when it happened, but that wasn’t the only factor. As has been said already here, there was basically a confluence of tough events for the city.

The population started declining in the late 50s.  The auto industry started declining at the same time.(not declining…just spreading out away from Detroit. the decline starts big time in the 80s.)
Much of that had to be relocating auto workers to newly opened plants like in Ohio, New Jersey, California to name some.

But the question was would Detroit have died if the auto industry had remained viable and IN Detroit.  We know what actually happened. The industry not only began dying, it was also moving out of Detroit, causing Detroit’s decline on two fronts. The question was would what have happened to Detroit if the auto industry had stayed viable and stayed in Detroit?

Lois

Of Detroit’s various problems of which I am aware:

Declining auto industry. Yes, a factor.
Racial segregation by neighborhoods. Detroit is the most racially segregated large city in the U.S., and has been for a long time. Segregated communities feel threatened by their surrounding communities, and people have been moving out to get away from Detroit’s race problems.
Unusually high city taxes.
Decades of unchecked political corruption. Kwame Kilpatrick was simply the worst at it; he got caught.
A too-easily-modified State constitution which makes it harder for make reforms in pro-union issues like pensions.
Exceptionally strong union political firepower. Except for the Detroit Musician’s Union, which is comparatively weak. The auto industry first began moving out to avoid the Michigan unions. Interestingly, the state is currently swinging in the opposite direction, toward weakening union powers.

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Posted: 20 August 2013 06:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]
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My work takes me into the heart of Detroit two or three time every week…while the decline of this once great city has many branches I can’t help but find this 6 part series on Youtube about Detroit in 1965 fascinating - it’s hard to believe that it all began to fall apart less than two years later when Detroit PD raided an after hours club on a “black day in July”!

http://www.youtube.com/embed/DPXL3iEVnCM

http://www.youtube.com/embed/Ga6xmbEmyOM

There are 5 more segments to the “Last Glory Days of Detroit”.

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