My own thoughts on imigration reform.
Posted: 23 July 2013 02:59 PM   [ Ignore ]
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With the consistent argument on the House and Senate floor its very clear immigration reform is needed but the current U.S. Congress like everything they touch is fouling this up as per the usual. At this point its not about left vs right at this point, its about freedom. I think that its up to U.S. citizens to submit ideas on how to repair the current mess we find ourselves in. I submit the following as a result:

Issues with the immigration debate abound. But the biggest
failings seem to be with the concept that its an all or
nothing deal. As an objectivist I believe man must be
free to follow his own judgement as he sees fit. However
this does not mean that we must let anyone who wishes just
walk into the U.S.as they please. Like a household we must
have the ability to properly check out those that wish to
become citizens of our country. The fact also stands that
we just cannot economically support every single person that
wants to come into this country. So how do we balance these
issues? I submit a 7 part plan to handle this.

* First the immigration process must be simplified so that a
person can have a social security number and citizenship in
a few weeks or less.
* All people entering the U.S. for citizenship must submit
to a background check and undergo some sort of test on basic
American history and values such as we have now. (However I
also submit that we ought to have American school children
be able to pass the same test.)
* The cost of immigration must be affordable otherwise
people of low income status will sneak in just as they do
currently
* Some limit must be set on the number of people flowing
into the country and my suggestion is that this be tied
to unemployment. The lower our unemployment the more people
we allow through. As the rate rises we slow our quota and
possibly give tax credits to those that agree to move to
low unemployment states for at least a year.
* Any violent criminal behavior on the record of someone
seeking citizenship or within the first year of immigration
should lead to auto deportation and being barred from ever
regaining citizenship.
* The language of all forms ought to be English and all new
immigrants must be strongly encouraged to adopt the major
language of their new home.
* This plan would also require all currently nonlegal
immigrants to submit to a background check and fill out a
form of work history that will determine a 1,2,or 3 year
tax return with holding as recompense for taxes not paid
during their time here.

This is a very basic concept of what I find to be a common
sense solution to a very evidently broken system that is
allowing the wrong people in and keeping the right people
out.

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Posted: 23 July 2013 05:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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* First the immigration process must be simplified so that a
person can have a social security number and citizenship in
a few weeks or less.

That is already done, any worker, citizen or not can get a number. Some are temporary numbers but they have all the power of the regular number.
 
* All people entering the U.S. for citizenship must submit
to a background check and undergo some sort of test on basic
American history and values such as we have now. (However I
also submit that we ought to have American school children
be able to pass the same test.)

Background checks are required.
American history is required for citizenship.
And values is something new and should we let the government tell us what values are?

* The cost of immigration must be affordable otherwise
people of low income status will sneak in just as they do
currently

The cost of immigration is still being covered mostly by the taxpayers.
They only come here for work, medical and to have children. The U.S. Government can stop the employers from hiring illegals anytime it wants. The reason it does not is that they are doing jobs U.S. citizens will not do. 


* Some limit must be set on the number of people flowing
into the country and my suggestion is that this be tied
to unemployment. The lower our unemployment the more people
we allow through. As the rate rises we slow our quota and
possibly give tax credits to those that agree to move to
low unemployment states for at least a year.

The Visa program is tied to the unemployment rate.
Most do not care about tax credits, the IRS is paying billions in tax refunds to illegal’s that do not qualify every year and they have been doing this for the last twenty years now.

* Any violent criminal behavior on the record of someone
seeking citizenship or within the first year of immigration
should lead to auto deportation and being barred from ever
regaining citizenship.

That is already the law.

* The language of all forms ought to be English and all new
immigrants must be strongly encouraged to adopt the major
language of their new home.

Yes that would be good. But English has not been declared out national language yet. That has to be done first.

* This plan would also require all currently nonlegal
immigrants to submit to a background check and fill out a
form of work history that will determine a 1,2,or 3 year
tax return with holding as recompense for taxes not paid
during their time here.

Most methods of background checks do not exist for most immigrants.
Most do pay taxes, State and Federal. Employers do this because of the liability of worker’s compensation insurance. 
The system now requires that if they have been working here then they must leave the country for 5 years or so before they can reapply for citizenship. Take that away and you will have millions of illegal immigrants here over night.

Q. Why must they be citizens to work here?
Most countries do not work that way.
We have the Guest Worker Visa Program.
That is all we need.
We could take the citizenship out of the loop altogether.

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Posted: 23 July 2013 05:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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MikeYohe - 23 July 2013 05:07 PM

* First the immigration process must be simplified so that a
person can have a social security number and citizenship in
a few weeks or less.

That is already done, any worker, citizen or not can get a number. Some are temporary numbers but they have all the power of the regular number.

That’s not what the Social Security site says. According to the .Gov site at best it takes 3 weeks IF they can verify your work visa via the DHS online network. My goal is fill out paperwork and a person can get a social security number prior to gaining full citizenship.
http://ssa-custhelp.ssa.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/1669/~/time-frame-for-processing-a-social-security-card-for-a-legal-alien
 
* All people entering the U.S. for citizenship must submit
to a background check and undergo some sort of test on basic
American history and values such as we have now. (However I
also submit that we ought to have American school children
be able to pass the same test.)

Background checks are required.
American history is required for citizenship.
And values is something new and should we let the government tell us what values are?

I could agree on the values part. Maybe I poorly phrased things really. I should have said the founding principles that the constitution was based on. Also I know a test is already mandatory. I was mostly meaning to add that we ought to ensure that Americans can pass this test not just people trying to become citizenship.

* The cost of immigration must be affordable otherwise
people of low income status will sneak in just as they do
currently

The cost of immigration is still being covered mostly by the taxpayers.
They only come here for work, medical and to have children. The U.S. Government can stop the employers from hiring illegals anytime it wants. The reason it does not is that they are doing jobs U.S. citizens will not do.

I was trying to imply that the cost of the paperwork and processing should be low enough that people coming over to become a citizen can afford the fees and and take away or lower the burden on current taxpayers for this.


* Some limit must be set on the number of people flowing
into the country and my suggestion is that this be tied
to unemployment. The lower our unemployment the more people
we allow through. As the rate rises we slow our quota and
possibly give tax credits to those that agree to move to
low unemployment states for at least a year.

The Visa program is tied to the unemployment rate.
Most do not care about tax credits, the IRS is paying billions in tax refunds to illegal’s that do not qualify every year and they have been doing this for the last twenty years now.

This is not about Visa’s. its about permanent residency being tied to unemployment rate. Saying that tax credits would not encourage people to move to a particular location is something Id like to see you back up with data. the fact that refunds are being given out poorly is a failing of the tax system not the immigration system.

* Any violent criminal behavior on the record of someone
seeking citizenship or within the first year of immigration
should lead to auto deportation and being barred from ever
regaining citizenship.

That is already the law.

Yes criminal behavior can block gaining citizenship you cannot LOSE it for ciminal behavior. Again .Gov website states only a very few actions can cause this as seen here: http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_778.html

* The language of all forms ought to be English and all new
immigrants must be strongly encouraged to adopt the major
language of their new home.

Yes that would be good. But English has not been declared out national language yet. That has to be done first.

Why would it need to be a law to mandate this?

* This plan would also require all currently nonlegal
immigrants to submit to a background check and fill out a
form of work history that will determine a 1,2,or 3 year
tax return with holding as recompense for taxes not paid
during their time here.

Most methods of background checks do not exist for most immigrants.
Most do pay taxes, State and Federal. Employers do this because of the liability of worker’s compensation insurance. 
The system now requires that if they have been working here then they must leave the country for 5 years or so before they can reapply for citizenship. Take that away and you will have millions of illegal immigrants here over night.

Q. Why must they be citizens to work here?
Most countries do not work that way.
We have the Guest Worker Visa Program.
That is all we need.
We could take the citizenship out of the loop altogether.

First of all Ive yet to meet someone not legally here paying taxes. I also am not suggesting that people must leave the country at all. I am suggesting that if you do not currently pay taxes and are working here illegally then you must submit a work history and lose tax refund for a set amount of time. Also I am not suggesting taking away the worker visa programs we currently have I am suggesting amending the path to full citizenship.
By the way as I stated this isn’t fully fleshed out. Thank you for helping me work out holes in it. Keep the questions and challenges coming.

[ Edited: 23 July 2013 06:05 PM by MadHatter ]
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Posted: 23 July 2013 08:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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That’s not what the Social Security site says. According to the .Gov site at best it takes 3 weeks IF they can verify your work visa via the DHS online network. My goal is fill out paperwork and a person can get a social security number prior to gaining full citizenship.

MadHatter,
Work visa’s do not have to have anything to do with citizenship. But our government politicians are mixing the two. 
Social Security deals with employment. The Social Security does not really get too involved with whether you’re a citizen or not. They deal with “workers” legal or illegal.


This is not about Visa’s. Its about permanent residency being tied to unemployment rate. Saying that tax credits would not encourage people to move to a particular location is something Id like to see you back up with data. the fact that refunds are being given out poorly is a failing of the tax system not the immigration system.

Permanent Residency is a Visa status. And you are correct the tax system is not part of the immigration system. The IRS has failed completely in giving out refunds to illegals.

Pay tax credits to move from one state to another is more regulations that the government will fail at managing.

Yes that would be good. But English has not been declared out national language yet. That has to be done first.

Why would it need to be a law to mandate this?

That is a major constitutional issue. 


We need to stop the amount of immigration into America until the government and the laws are correctly setup to handle the immigration. I was reading where one North County hospital in San Diego had 80% of new babies were from Mexico. They do this so the children are United State citizens and this helps them become US citizens.

First of all Ive yet to meet someone not legally here paying taxes.

Most illegal’s work in the agriculture, landscaping, hotel/motel, restaurant types of business and they all have to pay taxes. The laws are such that the employer must withhold taxes by law.  Just a guess, of the 20M illegal workers, I bet 70% are paying taxes, the other are working jobs and being paid under the table. But they would prefer full time work and pay the taxes.


Each one of these departments has it’s own laws and operates like it is it’s own country. Have you been following the IRS in the News? Even congress can not make them answer questions or get a straight answer anyway.

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Posted: 23 July 2013 08:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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That’s not what the Social Security site says. According to the .Gov site at best it takes 3 weeks IF they can verify your work visa via the DHS online network. My goal is fill out paperwork and a person can get a social security number prior to gaining full citizenship.

MadHatter,
Work visa’s do not have to have anything to do with citizenship. But our government politicians are mixing the two. 
Social Security deals with employment. The Social Security does not really get too involved with whether you’re a citizen or not. They deal with “workers” legal or illegal.

That however to me is an issue. If you dont have a visa or citizenship the moment you apply for such Social Security number ICE should be paying you a visit. However that would only be sensible IF we got things seriously cleaned up.


This is not about Visa’s. Its about permanent residency being tied to unemployment rate. Saying that tax credits would not encourage people to move to a particular location is something Id like to see you back up with data. the fact that refunds are being given out poorly is a failing of the tax system not the immigration system.

Permanent Residency is a Visa status. And you are correct the tax system is not part of the immigration system. The IRS has failed completely in giving out refunds to illegals. Pay tax credits to move from one state to another is more regulations that the government will fail at managing.

Ok you have me there. They would mismanage that just as badly as they do everything else. So step one fix tax code. step two lower taxes, step three profit…..

Yes that would be good. But English has not been declared out national language yet. That has to be done first.

Why would it need to be a law to mandate this?

That is a major constitutional issue.

How so? Please explain what article would would make this a constitutional issue. 


We need to stop the amount of immigration into America until the government and the laws are correctly setup to handle the immigration. I was reading where one North County hospital in San Diego had 80% of new babies were from Mexico. They do this so the children are United State citizens and this helps them become US citizens.

I agree even if this is unlikely to happen.

First of all Ive yet to meet someone not legally here paying taxes.

Most illegal’s work in the agriculture, landscaping, hotel/motel, restaurant types of business and they all have to pay taxes. The laws are such that the employer must withhold taxes by law.  Just a guess, of the 20M illegal workers, I bet 70% are paying taxes, the other are working jobs and being paid under the table. But they would prefer full time work and pay the taxes.
Each one of these departments has it’s own laws and operates like it is it’s own country. Have you been following the IRS in the News? Even congress can not make them answer questions or get a straight answer anyway.

Can you link some hard data on those numbers?
Also Congress is failing up because we allow it. If they did their job they would have easy tools to fix this. Its simple really. ” Ok so you dont want to answer us? Well we have cut all funding until you do.” Im betting they would work with Congress fairly fast.

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Posted: 23 July 2013 09:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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The issue of National language has come up several times in my lifetime.
Going further back German miss being our main language by only 2 votes.
The issue would be free speech. Free speech means in any language.


There are no solid numbers on illegal workers. It is said that Mexico’s second largest city is Los Angeles.

MadHatter,
There is nothing wrong with workers coming to America to do work that Americans will not do. There are systems that handle this same thing in Europe and other countries.  Our country did not use to have these problems when it was not run by lawyers.

Also, it is best if you do not use red for highlighting text. I think that is a reserved color. 

You can not cut funding for Congress. They print all the money they want.

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Posted: 23 July 2013 09:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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MikeYohe - 23 July 2013 09:14 PM

The issue of National language has come up several times in my lifetime.
Going further back German miss being our main language by only 2 votes.
The issue would be free speech. Free speech means in any language.


There are no solid numbers on illegal workers. It is said that Mexico’s second largest city is Los Angeles.

MadHatter,
There is nothing wrong with workers coming to America to do work that Americans will not do. There are systems that handle this same thing in Europe and other countries.  Our country did not use to have these problems when it was not run by lawyers.

Also, it is best if you do not use red for highlighting text. I think that is a reserved color. 

You can not cut funding for Congress. They print all the money they want.

First the language thing is NOT an issue of free speech. Mandating all government forms be in English in no way limits the individuals right to free speech.

Secondly the issue is breaking the laws to get here in the first place even if said laws need to be changed. And cut the work Americans wont do crude because you cannot back that up with anything. The only reason people that are not here legally are doing those jobs as they are likely at massively low wages that insult Americans. While Ive no issue with people working at whatever wage they are willing to take they ought to follow the rules and pay into the economy to do so.

I was not talking cutting funding to congress. I was talking Congress cutting funding to the IRS to gain compliance. Along with any other department that didn’t want to play ball.
Oh and thanks for the heads up on the color. I didnt know it was reserved or even that any color was reserved….

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Posted: 23 July 2013 09:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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No, I disagree with you, agriculture wages for illegal’s or legal start at 12/hr and go up from there.
What you are saying, is what I have heard for years, but it is not true. I have not seen these low wages you are talking about.
Labor is the most important item of any business and most of the time the biggest cost for the business. Agriculture is different; labor is not the biggest cost of business, running from 12-15% of operational costs.

I missed the IRS cutting funding, your right; you know they are talking about doing that very thing on the news today. Three congressmen even want to close the IRS altogether.

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Posted: 23 July 2013 10:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
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MikeYohe - 23 July 2013 09:44 PM

No, I disagree with you, agriculture wages for illegal’s or legal start at 12/hr and go up from there.
What you are saying, is what I have heard for years, but it is not true. I have not seen these low wages you are talking about.
Labor is the most important item of any business and most of the time the biggest cost for the business. Agriculture is different; labor is not the biggest cost of business, running from 12-15% of operational costs.

I have first hand experience that illegal workers get paid less all over the board. My family has many illegals and they all are paid far less then even what is even legal. Its all under the table crap because they have no legal recourse due to their legal status. If i’ve seen so much of it just due to half my family’s status how much more wide spread is it?

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Posted: 24 July 2013 01:02 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
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MikeYohe - 23 July 2013 05:07 PM

* First the immigration process must be simplified so that a
person can have a social security number and citizenship in
a few weeks or less.

That is already done, any worker, citizen or not can get a number. Some are temporary numbers but they have all the power of the regular number.
 
* All people entering the U.S. for citizenship must submit
to a background check and undergo some sort of test on basic
American history and values such as we have now. (However I
also submit that we ought to have American school children
be able to pass the same test.)

Background checks are required.
American history is required for citizenship.
And values is something new and should we let the government tell us what values are?

* The cost of immigration must be affordable otherwise
people of low income status will sneak in just as they do
currently

The cost of immigration is still being covered mostly by the taxpayers.
They only come here for work, medical and to have children. The U.S. Government can stop the employers from hiring illegals anytime it wants. The reason it does not is that they are doing jobs U.S. citizens will not do. 


* Some limit must be set on the number of people flowing
into the country and my suggestion is that this be tied
to unemployment. The lower our unemployment the more people
we allow through. As the rate rises we slow our quota and
possibly give tax credits to those that agree to move to
low unemployment states for at least a year.

The Visa program is tied to the unemployment rate.
Most do not care about tax credits, the IRS is paying billions in tax refunds to illegal’s that do not qualify every year and they have been doing this for the last twenty years now.

* Any violent criminal behavior on the record of someone
seeking citizenship or within the first year of immigration
should lead to auto deportation and being barred from ever
regaining citizenship.

That is already the law.

* The language of all forms ought to be English and all new
immigrants must be strongly encouraged to adopt the major
language of their new home.

Yes that would be good. But English has not been declared out national language yet. That has to be done first.

* This plan would also require all currently nonlegal
immigrants to submit to a background check and fill out a
form of work history that will determine a 1,2,or 3 year
tax return with holding as recompense for taxes not paid
during their time here.

Most methods of background checks do not exist for most immigrants.
Most do pay taxes, State and Federal. Employers do this because of the liability of worker’s compensation insurance. 
The system now requires that if they have been working here then they must leave the country for 5 years or so before they can reapply for citizenship. Take that away and you will have millions of illegal immigrants here over night.

Q. Why must they be citizens to work here?
Most countries do not work that way.
We have the Guest Worker Visa Program.
That is all we need.
We could take the citizenship out of the loop altogether.


It’s not true that they are doing jobs that US citizens will not do. There may be a few exceptions but the vast majority of jobs would be filled by US citizens if the employers would pay at least minimum wage.  Undocumented immigrants from Mexico and Central America are desperate and know they face deportation, so they will work below minimum wage. Employers take advantage of this.  If they are paid under the table neither the workers nor the employers pay employment taxes, nor do the employers have to provide even mimimal benefits,  which means the undocumented worker is even more attractive to the employer.  The employers would have to pay these taxes and provide benefits if they were paying an American. This not only creates unemployment among Americans, but allows the employer to exploit the undocumented worker. Often employers refuse to pay for work done or pay less than was agreed upon because they know the immigrant has no recourse.  They can force immigrants to work long hours without overtime pay.  Employers also ignore expensive safety rules when it comes to undocumented workers. 

Don’t buy into the cruel lie that Americans won’t take the jobs immigrants take.  The jobs are given to undocumented immigrants because they cost the employer less on all fronts and increase the employers’ profits. This is squarely where the undocumented immigrant problem lies. If every undocumented worker here now were to be given guest worker status or citizenship, there would still be undocumented workers sneaking across the border and employers who will be glad to hire them.  And we will have millions more people, now documented,  who can’t get jobs unless they are wlling to work for the same pay under the table with no benefits just as they were willing to work for when they were undocumented.

Lois

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Posted: 24 July 2013 09:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
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Lois,

The problem is that in most business labor is the biggest cost of doing business. Even in agriculture where labor is only 12-15% of the cost. How do you work with a cash payment that is not deductible on your taxes and get away with that in business?  You might for a month or so. But no standard business can build have a business structure on cash payment to its workers.

Then what business man would risk his whole business to save a few dollars on labor? If a worker got hurt at work, you would be sued and the government would have frozen you business and all personal belongings. It’s not worth it.

Now are there a few doing cash payments and avoiding all taxes. Yes there are, but the percentage of the overall numbers is quite low.

Years ago, I use to Red Line areas that were using cash under the table payments. For example in San Diego I would not let the salesmen sign up any companies below University Avenue and the Mexican Border without my review because of the cash payment problems. The same with Los Angeles I used Red Line areas but not just because of cash, but because of fraud too.

In areas like Denver and Saint Paul and other cities I did not see enough of a problem to need to Red Line. But I stayed away form Mexican boarder towns altogether.

What employers are doing! They are telling the new hires that they must provide the proper paper work and have taxes withheld to be able to work.

What are the employees doing! They are buying the needed paperwork or using a relatives or friends papers. I hear the cost is from eighty to two hundred dollars for new paperwork.

I brought up the Mexican Counsel from Mexico City so that the young Mexican workers could signup for military service. By Mexico law all males have to sign up at eighteen years old or it goes on their record and there were guys over thirty-five who had not signed up because they would have to go to Mexico to signup.  It was funny, they all had several ID’s with pictures but when it came to signing up with Mexico they all used their real names, which did not match the ID’s at all.  I did this at the county fair grounds, I had sponsored a Mexican rodeo and thousands showed up from all over the area. 

Now as far as the type of work.  Yes I am seeing a lot of workers in places like McDonnell’s and other business. Most of these workers are not illegal. They are in the process of becoming U.S. citizens. That is part of the programs the government is talking about. Most are what you would call Resident Aliens. 

Resident Aliens do work in the cities in all trades. The government can control the illegal’s but they have seemed to lost control of the Resident Aliens. The Resident Aliens can take up to 15 years or more to get citizenship. At a million plus a year coming into the United States over several years you got a big problem if you do not get the people processed. And I think that is what you are seeing. But they are not illegal’s they are here legally. 

I might add that one year I called a guy I knew to see if he was having the same problems that I was seeing. That problem was that many of the guys coming up from Mexico to work in agriculture did not like working agriculture and would quite. My friend would bring up over 8,000 workers to help with the orange harvest in Florida each year. And yes he was having the same problems. And he was doing the same as me, bring guy from Central and South America up to work. It seemed that a lot of the young Mexican workers were of the new generation and were becoming more like the American workers and would not do certain types of work.

An example of pay. In the dairies the lowest paying job was 12/hr, the average pay back then was about 16/hr. Today it is closer to 20/hr. Some of the dairies that had workers closer to 12/hr also included housing and sometimes food. We had local Americans also working, and the wages were always the same. I called on several young right out of high school workers who had quite and ask them why they quite the agriculture work. They all told me the same thing. They did not like the type of work. A couple I know quite jobs paying 16/hr to work in town making 7/hr because they did not like agriculture work.

Take all the day labors who will work for any amount and add them up and you will not have over a couple percentage of the alien workforce. And you only see them in the cities, not in the rural agriculture areas. 

Lois, I think the main problem is not the undocumented foreign workers but the documented foreign workers.

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Posted: 24 July 2013 09:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
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I have first hand experience that illegal workers get paid less all over the board. My family has many illegals and they all are paid far less then even what is even legal. Its all under the table crap because they have no legal recourse due to their legal status. If i’ve seen so much of it just due to half my family’s status how much more wide spread is it?

MadHatter,
Illegal or legal workers have the power of the government departments behind them. Any one of them can turn you family into the government and it could end up being quite costly for your family.
And yes they do have recourse. I will bet you that most of those illegal’s you are talking about know more about American labor laws than you do.
The reason is that they listen to Spanish speaking radio stations that have speakers talking about labor laws and rights all the time. The main advertisers of these radio stations are lawyers who represent illegal’s in lawsuits against American employers who break the laws.

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