2 of 6
2
Muslims promote Sharia law. Why do Christians not promote their law?
Posted: 01 August 2013 12:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  6166
Joined  2009-02-26

All religions which espouse a “Kingdom of Heaven” are incompatible with democracy to begin with.

“I believe in Democracy but my god is my King”?  Odd.

 Signature 

Art is the creation of that which evokes an emotional response, leading to thoughts of the noblest kind.
W4U

Profile
 
 
Posted: 01 August 2013 12:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3256
Joined  2011-08-15

Did I say it was OK?  The question was why do Christians not promote their law.  In pointing out the Inquisition was based on ancient Roman law, I’m pointing out it was not based on any Christian law. 

This statement is completely false. The roots of the inquisition began with the Council of Nicea convened by Constantine to sort out the doctrinal differences Among the various bishops who espoused their own views of the divinity of Jesus, and to establish a standard dogma for xtianity. Constantine merely presided over the Council in 325 CE and let the bishops sort it out. Thus began the “heresies” of the Arians and ManIcheans and many others to follow. This in no way had a link to Roman law. Even Constantine declared an end to xtian oppression but did not solidify xtianity as the State religion. That came much later with the Emperor Theodocius. It did however set the stage for the inquisition in the 11th Century and Pope Gregory IX issued a decree demanding secular authorities to persecute heretics by burning at the stake. The Spanish went a step further by creating their own persecution of Jews and dissenters. Pope Paul III In 1542 CE set up an official council to prosecute heretics and this continued through the 17th Century; the Dominican Order was heavily involved. So, even though there was no biblical declaration except the proscriptions for blasphemy (punishable by death, or gathering sticks on the sabbath, same etc.) you can’t separate the inquisition from xtianity by mislabeling it’s origins. Many people were burned for pubically stating that Jesus wasn’t divine or born of a virgin.


Cap’t Jack

 Signature 

One good schoolmaster is of more use than a hundred priests.

Thomas Paine

Profile
 
 
Posted: 01 August 2013 12:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  604
Joined  2011-08-10
Write4U - 01 August 2013 12:02 PM

All religions which espouse a “Kingdom of Heaven” are incompatible with democracy to begin with.

“I believe in Democracy but my god is my King”?  Odd.

If no theology has a democratic heaven then you are right.

Are all the religions with a human type God tyrannies?

Regards
DL

Profile
 
 
Posted: 01 August 2013 12:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  6166
Joined  2009-02-26
Greatest I am - 01 August 2013 12:10 PM
Write4U - 01 August 2013 12:02 PM

All religions which espouse a “Kingdom of Heaven” are incompatible with democracy to begin with.

“I believe in Democracy but my god is my King”?  Odd.

If no theology has a democratic heaven then you are right.

Are all the religions with a human type God tyrannies?

Regards
DL

You cannot have democracy in a kingdom, it’s a kingdom, with a supreme divine ruler who can send you to hell if you’ve not been good, in His (as translated by priests) eyes.

No, I am speaking of the Abrahamic religions/

 Signature 

Art is the creation of that which evokes an emotional response, leading to thoughts of the noblest kind.
W4U

Profile
 
 
Posted: 01 August 2013 03:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  448
Joined  2012-02-02
DarronS - 01 August 2013 10:44 AM

Many of the teachings attributed to Jesus in the Bible predate the Jesus myth by five centuries and more, including the Sermon on the Mount.

I studied the Bible when I was younger. That is what led to me losing my faith and studying science and philosophy instead. Darwin had the answers I was seeking in the bible, and philosophers exhibit better moral reasoning than anything found in the Bible or Koran.

It was hearing the Sermon on the Mount in church when I was a teenager that convinced me Christianity was crap.  The parents of my girlfriend at the time were going through a bitter divorce and in the sermon Christ condemns divorce.  I heard that, and knowing that there was no way her parents could resolve their differences (her dad was a bitter psycho), along with Christ saying that anyone who looked at another person with lustful thoughts would be condemned to hell, realized that anyone who would say such a thing had absolutely zero understanding of human nature.  (The fact that the church had no problem with divorce also told me that the folks in charge didn’t buy it, either, also contributed to my realization.)

 Signature 

“There will come a time when it isn’t ‘They’re spying on me through my phone’ anymore. Eventually, it will be ‘My phone is spying on me’.” ― Philip K. Dick

The Atheist in the Trailer Park

Profile
 
 
Posted: 01 August 2013 04:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  296
Joined  2013-07-25
Thevillageatheist - 01 August 2013 12:06 PM

The roots of the inquisition began with the Council of Nicea convened by Constantine to sort out the doctrinal differences Among the various bishops who espoused their own views of the divinity of Jesus, and to establish a standard dogma for xtianity. Constantine merely presided over the Council in 325 CE and let the bishops sort it out. Thus began the “heresies” of the Arians and ManIcheans and many others to follow. This in no way had a link to Roman law.

The Council of Nicea was convened to discuss and settle matters of Church doctrine.  It had nothing to do with any form of legal system.  If Christianity is to mean anything it must have a set of teachings, otherwise anyone can call anything “Christianity.” So the Bishops, the individual church leaders, met together to settle matters of Christian doctrine and determine what Christians believe based on the teachings handed down from the Apostles. 

A legal system is the codification of laws set for all citizens to follow and used by judges to enforce those laws and determine punishment.  Christianity has no earthly legal system—it has no set of laws—and it has no authority that presides over anyone—no judges.

The Catholic Church traditionally didn’t claim authority over anyone who was not a Christian, but when men decided they needed to enforce certain beliefs and codified a law to do so, they used the inquisitorial system of law as opposed to the adversarial system, and that was based on ancient Roman law.  It was not a model that had any basis in Christian teaching.  There is a big leap between determining Christian doctrine at the Council at Nicea, and the later use of an inquisitional from of law to judge church heretics.  The Spanish Inquisition went beyond the church.  That was done by the Monarchs who had returned to power in Spain after defeating the Muslim conquerors of their land.  They were sending out of their realm Muslims and the Jews who supported them—not all Jews.  The Inquisitions have no basis in Christian teaching.

Christianity is a different covenant from the Mosaic Law, so no, there is nothing punishable by death, there is no earthly authority given the power to judge and condemn anyone.  You will not find that in the Christian Scriptures. 

It is true that the only King of the Christian Church is Christ himself, and only he has the authority to judge—that being given to him by God.  The worst a Christian Church can do to anyone is stop having fellowship with them if they will not repent of sin.  If they repent, they are to be welcomed back. 

From the Christian Scriptures:  “Brothers and sisters, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against a brother or sister or judges them speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it.  There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?”

Those who organized and perpetrated the Catholic Inquisitions against other Christians and if they involved non-Christians will face the only Lawgiver and Judge in the end.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 01 August 2013 04:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  6166
Joined  2009-02-26

Closing abortion clinics (by law) is a religious position which is being implemented in several states.  Fortunately it is already protected by Federal Law and every one of those state laws will be struck down by the SCOTUS.

Look at Utah and its religiously restrictive laws. Religion is pervasive in our society and many state laws are not secular in nature.
Even insurance companies have a (legal) clause that “acts of God” are exempt from insurance liability.
“In God we trust” is on our currency. We open Congress with a prayer. And today especially one cannot get elected to public office if you are a known atheist. Just look at the hate speech against Obama calling him a Muslim, or Communist (atheist). In fact religion is used in politics everywhere, either to endorse or condemn.

Religious laws and practices not being promoted and enforced (in certain states) is a false statement. How many constitutional amendments with religious implications have been introduced?  The term ” under God” did not appear in the Pledge of Allegiance but was added later at the insistence of religious people. By definition that would make an atheist unable to become a citizen if he/she refused to recite it verbatim.

[ Edited: 01 August 2013 04:25 PM by Write4U ]
 Signature 

Art is the creation of that which evokes an emotional response, leading to thoughts of the noblest kind.
W4U

Profile
 
 
Posted: 01 August 2013 04:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  296
Joined  2013-07-25
Greatest I am - 01 August 2013 11:29 AM

I see your view of Christians but if they do become Christ-like, they would denounce their own religion as it is based on human sacrifice and the notion that it is somehow just to punish the innocent instead of the guilty.

If Jesus returned, Christian is the last label he would take.

You are right that in Christianity the penalty for sin is death and Jesus, being a righteous man, took that penalty for the sins of the guilty.  In Christianity that’s called love.  “Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.”

The best part came when death couldn’t hold him because of his righteousness and he defeated death’s hold for all mankind.  But hey, if you’d rather face justice for your sins than to accept his gift of forgiveness, that’s your choice and no one has the right to stand in your way.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 01 August 2013 04:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  6166
Joined  2009-02-26
LilySmith - 01 August 2013 04:30 PM
Greatest I am - 01 August 2013 11:29 AM

I see your view of Christians but if they do become Christ-like, they would denounce their own religion as it is based on human sacrifice and the notion that it is somehow just to punish the innocent instead of the guilty.

If Jesus returned, Christian is the last label he would take.

You are right that in Christianity the penalty for sin is death and Jesus, being a righteous man, took that penalty for the sins of the guilty.  In Christianity that’s called love.  “Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.”

The best part came when death couldn’t hold him because of his righteousness and he defeated death’s hold for all mankind.  But hey, if you’d rather face justice for your sins than to accept his gift of forgiveness, that’s your choice and no one has the right to stand in your way.

Jesus (if he indeed existed) is physically dead. Only his memory survives as a dubious example of “tough love”. Apparently God was ok with this as “He gave his only begotten son”. Now there is a lot of love. Don’t give up your own life, but just send your son to die.

Oh, how easy life becomes when you “just believe”. All will be forgiven and you will be saved for eternity. At least atheists are stuck with their guilt and regrets. This is how one learns morals, not being able find absolution from committed atrocities.

Lily, with respect, I would urge you to read the “Skeptics Annotated Bible” to get an idea of “confounded language” in all 3 Abrahamic religions.
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/

 Signature 

Art is the creation of that which evokes an emotional response, leading to thoughts of the noblest kind.
W4U

Profile
 
 
Posted: 01 August 2013 05:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3256
Joined  2011-08-15

The Council of Nicea was convened to discuss and settle matters of Church doctrine.  It had nothing to do with any form of legal system.  If Christianity is to mean anything it must have a set of teachings, otherwise anyone can call anything “Christianity.” So the Bishops, the individual church leaders, met together to settle matters of Christian doctrine and determine what Christians believe based on the teachings handed down from the Apostles. 

A legal system is the codification of laws set for all citizens to follow and used by judges to enforce those laws and determine punishment.  Christianity has no earthly legal system—it has no set of laws—and it has no authority that presides over anyone—no judges.

No where did I mention in my post that the Council of Nicea established any legal system to punish heresy. I did state that the heresies were clearly defined there, thus setting the stage for the inquisition to begin. As I said, it wasn’t until 1542 that an OFFICIAL council was established by the Catholic Church to prosecute heretics for religious crimes against the church. For some reason you want to completely divorce xtian doctrine from the very institution that promoted it and formed the dogma that later led to the deaths of thousands who disagreed with the established doctrine as it evolved from the Council until the Inquisition was officially banned. Xtianity had no Earthly legal system? How about the church courts set up all over Europe during the Middle Ages and not just for heresy trials. These courts could try any legal case from murder to divorce under a legal code called Canon law. Some aspects of canon law survive today. these courts may mirror Roman Law but their power derives from mother church supposedly established by the disciple Peter, thus linking it to a biblical personage and founder of the xtian church, at least in Rome. James formed the original church in Jerusalem.

 

Cap’t Jack

 Signature 

One good schoolmaster is of more use than a hundred priests.

Thomas Paine

Profile
 
 
Posted: 01 August 2013 06:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2602
Joined  2012-10-27
LilySmith - 01 August 2013 09:49 AM
Greatest I am - 30 July 2013 05:20 PM

Why do Christians not promote their law?

Christians don’t have a law.  The idea in Christianity is that when a man is made righteous through faith in Christ, meaning his heart is changed to know what is right and do it, then he has no need for a law.  Christianity promotes love.  When you love God and love your brother, neighbor and even your enemy, then you will do what is right by them.

It is my understanding that the inquisitorial system used by the Catholic Church was based on ancient Roman law.

If it’s true that Christians have no law, why are they at the forefront of the political process every time a law is proposed that goes against one of the tenets of their religion? Why do we have restrictive abortion laws? Why are Christians getting involved in whether Intelligent Design or creationism can be taught in public schools?  Why is there an outcry from Christians who don’t want sex education in the schools? Why is there political pressure from Christians when condoms were to be handed out in schools?  Why was there political pressure from Christian groups when states wanted to require HPV injections for girls? There are many political issues where Christians and Christian groups try to force their religious views on everyone. Sometimes they succeed, often to the detriment of society as a whole. If, as you say here, Christians have no need for a law, why do they get involved as a voting bloc to either support or go against certain laws? Christians push their political agendas constantly.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 01 August 2013 06:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3256
Joined  2011-08-15

The Catholic Church traditionally didn’t claim authority over anyone who was not a Christian, but when men decided they needed to enforce certain beliefs and codified a law to do so, they used the inquisitorial system of law as opposed to the adversarial system, and that was based on ancient Roman law.  It was not a model that had any basis in Christian teaching.  There is a big leap between determining Christian doctrine at the Council at Nicea, and the later use of an inquisitional from of law to judge church heretics.  The Spanish Inquisition went beyond the church.  That was done by the Monarchs who had returned to power in Spain after defeating the Muslim conquerors of their land.  They were sending out of their realm Muslims and the Jews who supported them—not all Jews.  The Inquisitions have no basis in Christian teaching.

Christianity is a different covenant from the Mosaic Law, so no, there is nothing punishable by death, there is no earthly authority given the power to judge and condemn anyone.  You will not find that in the Christian Scriptures. 

So we just sweep the persecution of the Jews under the rug and pretend it didn’t happen? They obviously weren’t xtian. once again you attempt to divide xtian doctrine as the basis of the inquisition from those evil monarchs who ruled by “divine Right” as sanctioned by god’s representative on Earth? Not possible. And both court systems operated simultaneously, one pagan and one religious. And there is no leap here; the link is an unbroken chain from determining what is heresy and what would become accepted doctrine derived from three hundred years of mistranslations and oral traditions. And once again you obviously misread my original post as I specifically stated that the inquisition began in the 11th Century and NOT with Torquemada in Spain after the expulsion of the Jews in 1492. Xtianity as no link to Mosiac Law? Hmm, what to do with that quote from Matthew 5: 18-19 about keeping the law, or Luke 16:17 concerning Heaven and Earth to pass than “one tittle of the LAW to fail” or Ecclesiastes 12:13 “fear god and keep his Commandments”. Sounds like a link to Mosiac Law to me. Or how about Jesus’ supposed quote that he came to fulfill the law? I’m sure that you could find some biblical quote to refute them. The bible is after all self contradictory.


Cap’t Jack

 Signature 

One good schoolmaster is of more use than a hundred priests.

Thomas Paine

Profile
 
 
Posted: 01 August 2013 06:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4860
Joined  2007-10-05
Coldheart Tucker - 01 August 2013 03:09 PM

It was hearing the Sermon on the Mount in church when I was a teenager that convinced me Christianity was crap.  The parents of my girlfriend at the time were going through a bitter divorce and in the sermon Christ condemns divorce.  I heard that, and knowing that there was no way her parents could resolve their differences (her dad was a bitter psycho), along with Christ saying that anyone who looked at another person with lustful thoughts would be condemned to hell, realized that anyone who would say such a thing had absolutely zero understanding of human nature.  (The fact that the church had no problem with divorce also told me that the folks in charge didn’t buy it, either, also contributed to my realization.)

Out of curiosity I looked up the Sermon on the Mount because I haven’t read the entire speech in decades. I love this part:

the universe itself shall pass away, before the smallest detail of God’s law revealed in Scripture comes to be out of date

Well, Del Rio must have frozen over, because most Christians consider slavery immoral despite the Bible’s laws on how to treat slaves.

 Signature 

You cannot have a rational conversation with someone who holds irrational beliefs.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 01 August 2013 07:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  296
Joined  2013-07-25
Write4U - 01 August 2013 04:58 PM
LilySmith - 01 August 2013 04:30 PM

Lily, with respect, I would urge you to read the “Skeptics Annotated Bible” to get an idea of “confounded language” in all 3 Abrahamic religions.
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/

Okay, I went to the web site.  You didn’t specify anything, so I started in Romans 1.  They mostly asked questions which I had no problem answering.  Then I came to this:

(2:11) “There is no respect of persons with God.”
Does God respect anyone?

Perhaps another translation will clarify:  Rom 2:11 “For God does not show favoritism.”

I suggest that the individual who is trying to critique the bible on this web site try an easier translation than that written in King James English.  He also seems to have a difficult time trying to figure out if salvation is by faith or works.  Seriously, this is basic stuff that he doesn’t understand.  What makes you think he has any ability to understand those things which are more complex?

Is there anything specific you would like an answer to?  Do you see anything that looks like Christianity set up a legal system with earthly judges and punishments? 

Perhaps it isn’t the bible that is confounded.  Perhaps the reader on this site lacks understanding.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 01 August 2013 07:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4860
Joined  2007-10-05
LilySmith - 01 August 2013 07:12 PM

Do you see anything that looks like Christianity set up a legal system with earthly judges and punishments?

You want to talk about earthly judges and punishments? I’d like you to address the history of the early Christian church. See my post at #9 in this thread. In addition to answering your criticism of my biblical knowledge I added a reference to early Christians fighting each other over theological differences and the winners writing what became modern Christian theology. Those winners were, by modern standards, murderers.

 Signature 

You cannot have a rational conversation with someone who holds irrational beliefs.

Profile
 
 
   
2 of 6
2