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Fast Food Employees on Strike
Posted: 04 August 2013 02:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 76 ]
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VYAZMA - 04 August 2013 11:47 AM

I don’t even know what this means.  Why would someone want to trade me a bottle of water for my car?
I can easily tell that this statement is one gigantic “straw-herring” or whatever.

It’s an analogy, and it’s based on very basic economic principles. The guy with the bottle has something of a certain value, and wants to trade for something of another value. The guy with the bottle can beg and plead all day long that the guy with the car is being unfair for not trading with him, but the guy with the car will only see it as a stupid trade, in which he is basically just giving his stuff away to another guy for essentially nothing.

This is a very basic analogy and is fairly straightforward. Both Jack and mid atlantic understand what I’m saying here. Why are you not able to make the connection?

Well you guys basically have said “Screw ‘em”. You have.

Call it what you want. I call it reality. Once you try to understand the above analogy, you’ll understand what I’m saying.

I don’t think anyone is asking to be paid as much as anyone else is?  What gives you that impression?

Sure, they may not directly ask for that, but that’s essentially what they are doing. Fact is, there are people getting paid $15 for doing way more than merely flipping a burger or sweeping a floor. Their pay is based on the value of their labor, which is tied to the supply and demand of that particular skillset. The demand for the skillset is still high, but the supply is even higher, thus reducing the market value of their labor. Basically, there are a lot of people that are willing to do the job for the same pay or less, so there is not much of an incentive to just give the guy extra money unless one was doing it strictly out of goodwill. That’s up to the individual, though.

They are trying to agitate, and collectivize to possibly unionize. If that happens, they will get a raise and some perks perhaps.
I’m sure the pay scale they agree on with McDonald’s for example will be something that all parties agree is commensurate with their skills, abilities and time…........This ain’t hard dude.  People have rights to collective bargain.  It doesn’t matter what you think they deserve…...

Nope, it doesn’t matter what I think. It also doesn’t matter what you think either. If it works out, all power to them. Good luck with it.  I’m not sure how many times I have to say this to you people, but if they want to unionize, and are able to pull it off, then that is their right. I can assure you that I won’t be losing any sleep over the issue.

I’m just saying that those who want to make this out as if all employers are just a bunch of evil pricks who want to do nothing more than fleece you (like Lois apparently thinks) need to understand that the reason that they don’t make more than what they do now is fairly basic.

Just get ready for the value of such labor to go down even further, because the supply will increase dramatically beyond the demand. More and more people will realize that you can now be paid $15 dollars just for flipping burgers. Why take a job that requires more skills than that? This will make the whole thing seem even sillier and more arbitrary.

You need to stop looking at anyone who is looking for a raise and better work environment as greedy and wanting to be paid like Donald Trump.

Exaggeration.

[ Edited: 04 August 2013 03:01 PM by Cloak ]
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Posted: 04 August 2013 04:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 77 ]
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Cloak: Many of the wealthiest people I know could give you a sad sob story, because many of them started out poor and uneducated, have lost everything at least once or twice, or at least came from broken homes.

Either you know an atypical group of wealthy people or you’re just making that up. It is less likely a poor worker in the United States will do better than their parent than workers in Europe.  http://www.economist.com/node/15908469http://www.huffingtonpost.com/howard-steven-friedman/class-mobility_b_1676931.html

Right now, there are tons of fast food workers who are way more valuable (have college educations, have a long list of acquired skills, or just do all of the basic tasks better than the rest) than most of these people asking for more money, but are not demanding higher pay. You know why? Because they know that such a demand is silly. These are people who paid attention in economics class and understand why what is being asked is not going to work. And quite frankly, many of those same people, who are having to settle for jobs that are far below their skillsets, feel insulted when the guy who is ten times less valuable (marketwise) asks to be paid more than him.

I’d really like to meet tons of college educated fast food workers who would turn down a living wage because they felt they were being amply rewarded for their unskilled work and and their integrity wouldn’t allow them to accept a raise.  Actually, I’d like to meet just one.

I can’t believe that anyone in this discussion believes that fast food workers are going to ever be paid some ridiculously high wage.  But a person who works an honest 40 hours should be making a living.  If they’re not, and so, must be supported by the government, than both the business owners and the customers are passing some of the true cost of their product or service to the taxpayer.  It is a subtle, but very real form of corporate welfare. http://money.msn.com/now/post.aspx?post=96788602-ad1c-46a7-b7f5-23416977b75e.

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Posted: 04 August 2013 05:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 78 ]
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MikeYohe

Now look at Wendy’s or McDonald’s, or Kentucky Fried Chicken.

The employees want more of a stake in that business.

There is something that not right here.

There are some unions that deal with fast food and they are connected with the restaurant and bar unions that have been around a long time. This one is not. I would guess that this is a movement by a group of lawyers.

Vyazma
That’s a guess that is at least partly right.  I’m sure there are lawyers involved.  That goes without saying.
The rest is pure speculation.

Mikeyohe/Vyazma,
What was the last union started by workers.

One of the best known and celebrated union leaders is Cesar Chavez for organizing the National Farm Workers Association. Workers would come up from Mexico and pick grapes. Each year they would negotiate the wage for picking. The farmers would worry each year that the picking crew would not show up for picking on time. What the Union did was organizing the workers was fill the need for the supply and demand of grape pickers and the result was the union workers end up working for the same money the next twenty years

Cesar Chavez was an American farm worker, labor leader and civil rights activist, who, with Dolores Huerta, co-founded the National Farm Workers Association

Now look at what Cesar Chavez accomplished for the workers. Lower wages, because he did not understand the whole picture and how the demand and supply system works with wages. Then he created more strikes and cause the grape growers to invest in machinery the replaced the grape pickers.
Overall he did more damage for the workers than good, yet he is thought of as a hero today for the grape pickers.

.............................................................

MikeYohe

There are a fair percentage of fast food workers that would lose income by getting a raise. Many are on relief and minimum wage and less than forty hours lets them qualify for relief. They might make say $560.00 a month more and take home $450.00 of that after taxes, but they would lose $600.00 a month in food stamps. So I do not see this movement coming from all the workers.

Vyazma
This is just conjecture and windbaggery.  I bet if you polled 10,000 fast food workers and asked them if they wanted their salaries doubled and health benefits etc.. they would say yes. Probably on the order of say…99.99%.
It’s about raising people up.  I would have thought you preferred them to make a living wage with some benefits and get off of food stamps.
People don’t want to be on food stamps.
Why would I even have to emphasize this?!?!?

mikeyohe/Vyazma,
Ask people if they want double their wage and health benefits, are you going to throw in a new car too? Please keep the facts straight. No body is adding health benefits. That is one of the reason people are on relief, is they get full medical.
Add medical to part time workers and the cost goes from $28.00/hr to $31.80/hr. Add full medical like the state and it would be closer to $35.00\hr. Right now their cost for a guy earning $7.25/hr is $13.54/hr. You think it is ok to pass a law raising the overhead cost by $18.26/hr to $28.00/hr.

Now the question is the $5.00 hamburger will now cost $8.50. Are you willing to pay $8.50 for a fast food hamburger?

........................................................................
mikeyohe

I started a union one time. And it’s not that hard. I did it for the reason that unions can get around most labor laws to a point. The state let injured workers go to these worker’s compensation medical clinics for treatment and spent six weeks before we could get them to a real doctor and heal the injury. These clinics were known as millionaire mills and were jointly run by the attorneys and doctors. When an employee is hurt the best thing you can do is get him to the best specialist and doctors you can find as quickly as possible. It will be cheaper in the long run and better for the employee.

Vyazma
Ok, do you think is really fairly admissible in this discussion?


mikeyohe/vyazma
Sorry, I some times forget the basic labor laws are not very well known by the public.

Yes, the point being is that most labor laws are enforced by attorneys.

Point, labor laws are most of the time enforced by attorneys representing workers in lawsuits against the business.

Companies like McDonalds, KFC, Jack in the Box and most of the big companies are set up with self insurance. But the cost of lawsuits by workers can be quite costly.

What I was trying to point out is that the business may be behind the creation of the union, just like I did years ago. They know the $15.00/hr will not pass. But just the talk about it may get the union in.

Who will be against the union, all the attorneys but a few? The reason is that unions are under federal laws. Therefore 98% of the attorneys are not qualified to work in federal courts. And unions can have mandatory arbitration. In mandatory arbitration the employee can have an attorney, but the employee must pay for the attorney. 

So, Vyazma, I do think that these points are fairly admissible in this discussion.

It is quite possible that the business are willing to deal with the unions to be able to stop fraudulent lawsuits, thus the business would be willing to pay the workers more if they can save costs on the employee lawsuits.

Today, some unions can be more beneficial to the employer than to the employee.

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Posted: 04 August 2013 07:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 79 ]
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Jeciron - 04 August 2013 04:29 PM

Either you know an atypical group of wealthy people or you’re just making that up. It is less likely a poor worker in the United States will do better than their parent than workers in Europe. 

Both me and my wife have family members and friends who have started out or at one point, ended up very poor, but are now quite wealthy. They range from cotton farmers, to car salesmen, to investors. ALL of them have been poor at one or more points in their lives. And yes, they are atypical. That’s my point.

I’d really like to meet tons of college educated fast food workers who would turn down a living wage because they felt they were being amply rewarded for their unskilled work and and their integrity wouldn’t allow them to accept a raise.  Actually, I’d like to meet just one.

Nobody is saying that the worker would reject the offer. But someone who really knows how things works would not demand $15.00 for flipping a burger.

I can’t believe that anyone in this discussion believes that fast food workers are going to ever be paid some ridiculously high wage. 

I never said that it’s “ridiculously high”. I stated continuously that what they want is way more than their market value.

But a person who works an honest 40 hours should be making a living.

Think about that for a moment. What if my job was to kick a rock repeatedly all day long. Sure, it’s a job, but I would look silly asking for 10-15 dollars an hour for it.

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Posted: 04 August 2013 08:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 80 ]
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The people working in the fast food industry are not “kicking rocks”.  They’re human beings preparing and serving food, sustenance, to other human beings, working hard in a hot, greasy unpleasant, high pressure setting. They’re striking in New York city, a city where the basic cost of living for a family of four is $93,500 http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-tops-new-living-expenses-article-1.1390134.  Fifty, forty hour weeks at $7.50 is $15,000 one sixth of that amount, and $15/ hour is only about $30,000.  The workers are not even asking for a living wage, at least not in New York city.  Sure, where I live $15/hr would be very good money for unskilled work, but I’m a long way from New York.

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Posted: 04 August 2013 10:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 81 ]
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Jeciron - 04 August 2013 08:10 PM

The people working in the fast food industry are not “kicking rocks”.  They’re human beings preparing and serving food, sustenance, to other human beings, working hard in a hot, greasy unpleasant, high pressure setting.

Again, it’s an analogy, and if you are trying to understand me, you will find a very important point in it. Bottom line (again): there are people who are asking for more than their market value. To a lot of people, that just translates to people asking for a goodwill handout. That’s fine too. If someone is willing to give you a handout, then that’s fine. Just asking for help is always an option. But let’s not disguise this as something else. And let’s also not ignore the fact that this could have unintended consequences as well, and not all of them are good.

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Don’t get set into one form, adapt it and build your own, and let it grow, be like water. Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like water. Now you put water in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put water into a bottle it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.

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Posted: 05 August 2013 04:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 82 ]
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Cloak, comparing someone providing a valid service to someone performing a pointless task is a poor analogy to illustrate your point with. You seem to believe that the market should be allowed to place people who perform a needed task, reasonable competently, in a position of penury; that those people shouldn’t have the right, or, at least, are somehow immoral for trying to bargain for a fair wage.  You also seem to believe that there may be drastic consequences for society if this is not allowed to occur.

I don’t think you’re right, and I don’t think history agrees with you.  In the U.S., before the Civil War the South was far poorer than the north, even though it had an extreme form of what you are proposing.  Even after the war during the Jim Crow era, much of the south remained a economic wasteland compared to the north.  It was a very productive era in America during the 1950s and 60s when there was a much smaller divide between the working class and the wealthy. I believe that most of Europe has greater economic equality, and by many measures a higher standard of living.  There is a very strong argument to be made that underpaying labor is very damaging to societies.

On the other hand, should free market forces allow someone possess infinite wealth? Bloated executive salaries may well have a damaging effect on the economy. Are the CEO’s making hundreds of millions really worth that sort of cost to society?  How do you evaluate the worth of a man like Donald Trump who has run a number of businesses into bankruptcy?  Many of these people are clearly asking for more than their market value.  Are you outraged by this, too?  Or, at the other end of the scale, is the proper attitude, “If they can get it, they must be worth it”? If that’s so, why are the wealthy so privileged but not the poor?

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Posted: 05 August 2013 05:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 83 ]
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mid atlantic - 30 July 2013 07:34 PM

What are some thoughts on these revolutionary brothers and sisters? (sarcasm)

I’d need to know if $15 dollars an hour is an amount of money that people can live on up to standards they can reasonable aspire to?

If it isn’t then I’m on their side and I think we should all be.

Perhaps it is I dunno?

Stephen

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Posted: 05 August 2013 06:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 84 ]
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Jeciron - 04 August 2013 08:10 PM

The people working in the fast food industry are not “kicking rocks”.  They’re human beings preparing and serving food, sustenance, to other human beings, working hard in a hot, greasy unpleasant, high pressure setting. They’re striking in New York city, a city where the basic cost of living for a family of four is $93,500 http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-tops-new-living-expenses-article-1.1390134.  Fifty, forty hour weeks at $7.50 is $15,000 one sixth of that amount, and $15/ hour is only about $30,000.  The workers are not even asking for a living wage, at least not in New York city.  Sure, where I live $15/hr would be very good money for unskilled work, but I’m a long way from New York.

Thanks for the information Jeciron.

I’m staggered that anyone is arguing that they are being unreasonable.

There is no need for this excessive inequality in our societies.

Stephen

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Posted: 05 August 2013 08:17 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 85 ]
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Jeciron - 05 August 2013 04:56 AM

Cloak, comparing someone providing a valid service to someone performing a pointless task is a poor analogy to illustrate your point with.

Give me a break. You’re not even trying. The job is only “pointless” if someone is not willing to pay you money for it. Stop focusing on how you feel about the activity and listen to what I’ve been trying to tell you: it is about the market value of your skillset. That is it. If you are poor, and have no other options, then kicking that freaking rock is about survival. If you are determined, you will also figure something out and find a way. Until then, in the meantime, if you are smart, you will shut up and kick that rock so you can feed your family today. Sure, you can try to bargain for more money. But you need to be very careful in your negotiations, because there’s always the possibility that the “employer” may say, “Ya know, screw this, there’s someone down the road who will do this thing for much less.” You can call him immoral as much as you want, but he didn’t have to offer you anything in the first place.

You seem to believe that the market should be allowed to place people who perform a needed task, reasonable competently, in a position of penury; that those people shouldn’t have the right, or, at least, are somehow immoral for trying to bargain for a fair wage. You also seem to believe that there may be drastic consequences for society if this is not allowed to occur.

I never said anything about it being “immoral” for someone to try to bargain for a bigger cut. I’ve argued consistently that the laborer has that right, just as much as the employer. The problem is that its you who are trying to say that the guy who chooses not to give the laborer more free stuff is immoral. And yes, in negotiations, there can always be unintended consequences. Those should always be considered in the negotiation. The truth is that there are many low skilled employees who cost their employers far more than the value they bring, yet the employers, OUT OF SHEER GOOD WILL eat the costs and keep them there, usually because they know that firing them could really hurt that individual. Do you know what happens when those employers are told to pay this worker even more, or to offer him higher benefits? That’s when the employer has to let him go and assign his tasks among those who are remaining.

What you people fail to recognize is that there are many people that are being allowed to remain in their job positions simply because the employer doesn’t have it in his/her heart to let that person go. Nobody ever considers this aspect. What’s ironic is that the majority of you know just those kinds of people. Instead, we continue to push and push for more free stuff, not realizing that there could be adverse effects.

I don’t think you’re right, and I don’t think history agrees with you.  In the U.S., before the Civil War the South was far poorer than the north, even though it had an extreme form of what you are proposing.  Even after the war during the Jim Crow era, much of the south remained a economic wasteland compared to the north.  It was a very productive era in America during the 1950s and 60s when there was a much smaller divide between the working class and the wealthy. I believe that most of Europe has greater economic equality, and by many measures a higher standard of living

By “many measures” a higher standard of living? Not sure about that one. If that’s the case, then Europeans wouldn’t have been rushing to come live over here. In reality, the “standard of living” issue is a very complex one, and depending on who’s performing the study and what that study is particularly focused on, you will get different answers. Some even say that we have a higher standard of living than in Europe. But really, even if you’re right, I don’t care about any of that. My main concern is for the little guy that you are claiming to want to help, because whenever “free stuff” policies get enacted, it’s the little guy that tends to get hit the hardest.

There is a very strong argument to be made that underpaying labor is very damaging to societies.

If by “underpaying”, you mean “below one’s market value”, I can understand that. However, that doesn’t appear to be what’s happening here. What people are doing is asking to be paid far above their market value. Completely different situation.

On the other hand, should free market forces allow someone possess infinite wealth? Bloated executive salaries may well have a damaging effect on the economy. Are the CEO’s making hundreds of millions really worth that sort of cost to society?  How do you evaluate the worth of a man like Donald Trump who has run a number of businesses into bankruptcy?  Many of these people are clearly asking for more than their market value.  Are you outraged by this, too?  Or, at the other end of the scale, is the proper attitude, “If they can get it, they must be worth it”? If that’s so, why are the wealthy so privileged but not the poor?

I don’t know much about Donald Trump, or exactly how he obtained his fortune. Personally, I think he’s a prick. But if he got where he is through honest hard work, then that’s his thing. And if you are concerned about people making “infinite wealth” and “bloated salaries”, then ask the government to stop favoring rich people over everyone else and even the playing field by backing off. It is the policies of your “heroes” that tends to allow certain classes of people to have unfair advantages. Wasn’t it you just a couple of posts earlier, who was complaining about “corporate welfare”? If so, I agree wholeheartedly.

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Posted: 05 August 2013 11:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 86 ]
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Cloak - 04 August 2013 10:05 PM
Jeciron - 04 August 2013 08:10 PM

The people working in the fast food industry are not “kicking rocks”.  They’re human beings preparing and serving food, sustenance, to other human beings, working hard in a hot, greasy unpleasant, high pressure setting.

Again, it’s an analogy, and if you are trying to understand me, you will find a very important point in it. Bottom line (again): there are people who are asking for more than their market value. To a lot of people, that just translates to people asking for a goodwill handout. That’s fine too. If someone is willing to give you a handout, then that’s fine. Just asking for help is always an option. But let’s not disguise this as something else. And let’s also not ignore the fact that this could have unintended consequences as well, and not all of them are good.

Who’s to say what their market value is?  (Hint: it is not what the employer is willing to pay).

What is the market value of any supply the employer needs to continue his operation? Many business-owners are struggling or have gone out of business because they couldn’t afford the market value of gasoline.  How far would they get if they told their gasoline suppliers that what they are charging is not market value and that they would not pay another penny? Would he cry crocodile tears that the gasoline suppliers are putting him out of business because they are charging more than he thinks they should? What does the business owner do when his own customers accuse him of charging too much? Does he lower the price for them?

Lois

[ Edited: 05 August 2013 02:06 PM by Lois ]
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Posted: 05 August 2013 01:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 87 ]
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Lois - 05 August 2013 11:47 AM
Cloak - 04 August 2013 10:05 PM
Jeciron - 04 August 2013 08:10 PM

The people working in the fast food industry are not “kicking rocks”.  They’re human beings preparing and serving food, sustenance, to other human beings, working hard in a hot, greasy unpleasant, high pressure setting.

Again, it’s an analogy, and if you are trying to understand me, you will find a very important point in it. Bottom line (again): there are people who are asking for more than their market value. To a lot of people, that just translates to people asking for a goodwill handout. That’s fine too. If someone is willing to give you a handout, then that’s fine. Just asking for help is always an option. But let’s not disguise this as something else. And let’s also not ignore the fact that this could have unintended consequences as well, and not all of them are good.

Who’s to say what their market value is?  (Hint: it is not what the employer is willing to pay).

What is the market value of any supply the employer needs to continue his operation? Many business-owners are struggling or have gone out of business because they couldn’t aford the market value of gasoline.  How far would they get if they told their gasoline suppliers that what they are charging is not maket value and that they would not pay another penny? Would he cry crocodile tears that the gasoline suppliers are putting him out of business because they are charging more than he thinks they should? What does the business owner do when his own customers accuse him of charging too much? Does he lower the price for them?
Lois

1. The business owner can indeed whine about it. Sometimes he does. (this usually doesn’t fix anything, so after he’s done, he moves on to rest of his options, unlike some other people)
2. He can go to a competitor (if there is one available).
3. If there is no competitor, he can take a look at the option of cutting costs in order to stay in business while still making a reasonable profit. (of course, his employees may suffer and whine about it, but they’ve gotta follow the same list of options that he does).
4. If that’s not possible, he can quit the business and try something different.

Any questions?

[ Edited: 05 August 2013 01:08 PM by Cloak ]
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Posted: 05 August 2013 01:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 88 ]
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Who’s to say what their market value is?  (Hint: it is not what the employer is willing to pay).

What is the market value of any supply the employer needs to continue his operation? Many business-owners are struggling or have gone out of business because they couldn’t aford the market value of gasoline.  How far would they get if they told their gasoline suppliers that what they are charging is not maket value and that they would not pay another penny? Would he cry crocodile tears that the gasoline suppliers are putting him out of business because they are charging more than he thinks they should? What does the business owner do when his own customers accuse him of charging too much? Does he lower the price for them?

Lois

Lois, you have a few “collegiates” here who are trying to explain the market value of labor using analogies that are base-level.
The simplicity of their analogies is an indicator of their poor grasp on these type values, not on their impetus to explain something simply.
That is the main issue. One analogy used was comparing these market dynamics to trading “bottled faucet water for a car.” or “kicking rocks around”.
The market value of labor is a quantifiable dynamic.  However it is not a market dynamic that can be explained by using “Lemonade Stand economics”.
For example, what happens to the market value of labor if 15,000 McDs employees suddenly became unionized?
What happened in the 1930s when 10s of thousands of Auto workers became unionized?  What became the market value of labor then?
What becomes the market value of labor when the US bleeds jobs off-shore by the millions(literally)?
The issue is far more complex then using jingoistic analogies that don’t even warrant a response!!
What is the market value of Labor when a country experiences no meaningful growth in a decade? When maybe that will stretch out to 2 decades? 3?
What is the market value of labor in these conditions when the Nasdaq or NYSE experiences record highs? How is that Market Value of Labor explained or quantified?

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Posted: 05 August 2013 01:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 89 ]
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VYAZMA - 05 August 2013 01:13 PM

Who’s to say what their market value is?  (Hint: it is not what the employer is willing to pay).

What is the market value of any supply the employer needs to continue his operation? Many business-owners are struggling or have gone out of business because they couldn’t aford the market value of gasoline.  How far would they get if they told their gasoline suppliers that what they are charging is not maket value and that they would not pay another penny? Would he cry crocodile tears that the gasoline suppliers are putting him out of business because they are charging more than he thinks they should? What does the business owner do when his own customers accuse him of charging too much? Does he lower the price for them?

Lois

Lois, you have a few “collegiates” here who are trying to explain the market value of labor using analogies that are base-level.
The simplicity of their analogies is an indicator of their poor grasp on these type values, not on their impetus to explain something simply.
That is the main issue. One analogy used was comparing these market dynamics to trading “bottled faucet water for a car.” or “kicking rocks around”.
The market value of labor is a quantifiable dynamic.  However it is not a market dynamic that can be explained by using “Lemonade Stand economics”.
For example, what happens to the market value of labor if 15,000 McDs employees suddenly became unionized?
What happened in the 1930s when 10s of thousands of Auto workers became unionized?  What became the market value of labor then?
What becomes the market value of labor when the US bleeds jobs off-shore by the millions(literally)?
The issue is far more complex then using jingoistic analogies that don’t even warrant a response!!
What is the market value of Labor when a country experiences no meaningful growth in a decade? When maybe that will stretch out to 2 decades? 3?
What is the market value of labor in these conditions when the Nasdaq or NYSE experiences record highs? How is that Market Value of Labor explained or quantified?

Wait a minute….so you’re telling me that that millions of burger flipping jobs have been outsourced? And who is the cause for this lack of “meaningful growth over the last decade? The guy who is hiring the burger flipper? Maybe it’s deeper. Or perhaps the solution IS to give more free stuff to people who aren’t likely going to do anything economically productive with it, but squander it away?. I’m guessing that’s what fixes economies? Perhaps we should go ask Detroit for more economic advice.

But I won’t worry about it, because my comment won’t “warrant a response” anyways….

[ Edited: 05 August 2013 01:36 PM by Cloak ]
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Posted: 05 August 2013 01:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 90 ]
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Cloak-Wait a minute….so you’re telling me that that millions of burger flipping jobs have been outsourced? And who is the cause for this lack of “meaningful growth over the last decade? The guy who is hiring the burger flipper? Maybe it’s deeper.

No.  What is the market value of burger flipping jobs when millions of other type industry jobs are outsourced?
What part of that did you not understand?  Did I state that millions of fast food jobs have been outsourced?

Can you honestly keep up with this discussion? No you can’t.  You have dug yourself a jingoistic hole.  And now some of us have to suffer through as you
yet again modulate your argument to suit points you cannot even make, that aren’t relevant to this discussion.
Once again, you’re over your head.
The whole point of this thread was what people think about Fast Food Workers(FFWs) wanting to unionize.
Basically your point is that they should accept reality and that they are unskilled peons who don’t deserve a raise.
Then you went off on an uninformed elementary diatribe about the market value of labor. Using analogies that are too simple for 3rd graders.
Why don’t you take a shot at my question regarding the market value of labor when 10,000 FFWs become unionized?
Use your understanding of the market value of labor to explain the values then. Can you do that?

Can you explain the market value of labor when through a process of protest, education, information dissemination and public awareness a certain industry sector’s
labor base becomes disaffected?
Why don’t you take a crack at that Cloak.
By the way…here’s a hint. That’s the public, through unions, actively effecting and changing the market value of labor.
Try to avoid using analogies like: “Trading bottled faucet water for cars.”  That don’t do to good!
Same with imagining a job like “kicking rocks around”.
Also leave your jingoism and other parroted crap at the door.

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