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Fast Food Employees on Strike
Posted: 05 August 2013 02:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 91 ]
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Cloak - 05 August 2013 01:05 PM
Lois - 05 August 2013 11:47 AM
Cloak - 04 August 2013 10:05 PM
Jeciron - 04 August 2013 08:10 PM

The people working in the fast food industry are not “kicking rocks”.  They’re human beings preparing and serving food, sustenance, to other human beings, working hard in a hot, greasy unpleasant, high pressure setting.

Again, it’s an analogy, and if you are trying to understand me, you will find a very important point in it. Bottom line (again): there are people who are asking for more than their market value. To a lot of people, that just translates to people asking for a goodwill handout. That’s fine too. If someone is willing to give you a handout, then that’s fine. Just asking for help is always an option. But let’s not disguise this as something else. And let’s also not ignore the fact that this could have unintended consequences as well, and not all of them are good.

Who’s to say what their market value is?  (Hint: it is not what the employer is willing to pay).

What is the market value of any supply the employer needs to continue his operation? Many business-owners are struggling or have gone out of business because they couldn’t aford the market value of gasoline.  How far would they get if they told their gasoline suppliers that what they are charging is not maket value and that they would not pay another penny? Would he cry crocodile tears that the gasoline suppliers are putting him out of business because they are charging more than he thinks they should? What does the business owner do when his own customers accuse him of charging too much? Does he lower the price for them?
Lois

1. The business owner can indeed whine about it. Sometimes he does. (this usually doesn’t fix anything, so after he’s done, he moves on to rest of his options, unlike some other people)
2. He can go to a competitor (if there is one available).
3. If there is no competitor, he can take a look at the option of cutting costs in order to stay in business while still making a reasonable profit. (of course, his employees may suffer and whine about it, but they’ve gotta follow the same list of options that he does).
4. If that’s not possible, he can quit the business and try something different.

Any questions?

Not at all. But the same goes if he can’t afford to pay his workers the price they set for their labor.

Any questions?

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Posted: 05 August 2013 02:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 92 ]
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VYAZMA - 05 August 2013 01:49 PM

Cloak-Wait a minute….so you’re telling me that that millions of burger flipping jobs have been outsourced? And who is the cause for this lack of “meaningful growth over the last decade? The guy who is hiring the burger flipper? Maybe it’s deeper.

No.  What is the market value of burger flipping jobs when millions of other type industry jobs are outsourced?
What part of that did you not understand?  Did I state that millions of fast food jobs have been outsourced?

Can you honestly keep up with this discussion? No you can’t.  You have dug yourself a jingoistic hole.  And now some of us have to suffer through as you
yet again modulate your argument to suit points you cannot even make, that aren’t relevant to this discussion.
Once again, you’re over your head.
The whole point of this thread was what people think about Fast Food Workers(FFWs) wanting to unionize.
Basically your point is that they should accept reality and that they are unskilled peons who don’t deserve a raise.
Then you went off on an uninformed elementary diatribe about the market value of labor. Using analogies that are too simple for 3rd graders.
Why don’t you take a shot at my question regarding the market value of labor when 10,000 FFWs become unionized?
Use your understanding of the market value of labor to explain the values then. Can you do that?

Can you explain the market value of labor when through a process of protest, education, information dissemination and public awareness a certain industry sector’s
labor base becomes disaffected?
Why don’t you take a crack at that Cloak.
By the way…here’s a hint. That’s the public, through unions, actively effecting and changing the market value of labor.
Try to avoid using analogies like: “Trading bottled faucet water for cars.”  That don’t do to good!
Same with imagining a job like “kicking rocks around”.
Also leave your jingoism and other parroted crap at the door.

Jingoism? Really? Did you check that term before you used it? What’s next? Hinduism? You should take about an hour and breathe before your next post, friend. Just a suggestion.

I asked about burger flipping jobs because that is exactly the particular job I’ve been talking about the entire time. If you want to ask me something that’s irrelevant to my points, then that’s your issue. I prefer to stay on topic. As I’ve said earlier, I am concerned about those people who want to make it out as if the big bad employer is always the evil guy in these transactions. People who want to oversimplify this aspect DO need to be educated on the issue.

Secondly, I never said that people can’t unionize or that they shouldn’t unionize. I think I’ve been quite consistent with that. And yes, unionizing can play a role in artificially changing the market value. That could be a good or bad thing, but while I’ve cautioned that unions can potentially become economically stagnating forces (see how teachers unions have practically handcuffed our schools), I’ve never spoken against unionizing in general. My father was a proud Teamster at UPS, by the way. I’ve also said that the concerns on both sides are valid. But, I’ve also said that raising wages can cause some people to get laid off. Do you not realize that the most heavily unionized industries are usually the ones that get automated the fastest? Unions are good, until they overreach. That is why Mike said that unions that get too powerful can be dangerous.  I simply concurred with him. Ask the union cashiers who got replaced by self-checkout systems, or perhaps you can ask your auto worker buddies who got replaced by machines, if you don’t know what I’m talking about. Automation, hiring freezes, and lay offs come most quickly to those unionized jobs where union overreach occurs. And you know what happens then? It’s no longer employer against laborer, but laborer against laborer. Why don’t you try to keep up with my posts by reading them with less confirmation bias, please?

What you don’t understand is that I know some of the people who are asking for more of this money. Many of them are people who consistently make bad choices in their lives, and complain when people refuse to give them a handout after it. The people who are responsible for hiring have to deal with people like this on a regular basis. And many of them are trying to KEEP them, regardless of how little value they bring. This is the type of stuff that MANY employers agonize over when they are debating whether to let insufficiently productive employees go, especially those who they care about.

If you could please take off your blinders for a moment and realize that I’m not insulting your precious unions, perhaps you’d understand what I’m saying (and what I’m not saying).

[ Edited: 05 August 2013 03:09 PM by Cloak ]
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Posted: 05 August 2013 02:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 93 ]
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Lois - 05 August 2013 02:09 PM
Cloak - 05 August 2013 01:05 PM
Lois - 05 August 2013 11:47 AM
Cloak - 04 August 2013 10:05 PM
Jeciron - 04 August 2013 08:10 PM

The people working in the fast food industry are not “kicking rocks”.  They’re human beings preparing and serving food, sustenance, to other human beings, working hard in a hot, greasy unpleasant, high pressure setting.

Again, it’s an analogy, and if you are trying to understand me, you will find a very important point in it. Bottom line (again): there are people who are asking for more than their market value. To a lot of people, that just translates to people asking for a goodwill handout. That’s fine too. If someone is willing to give you a handout, then that’s fine. Just asking for help is always an option. But let’s not disguise this as something else. And let’s also not ignore the fact that this could have unintended consequences as well, and not all of them are good.

Who’s to say what their market value is?  (Hint: it is not what the employer is willing to pay).

What is the market value of any supply the employer needs to continue his operation? Many business-owners are struggling or have gone out of business because they couldn’t aford the market value of gasoline.  How far would they get if they told their gasoline suppliers that what they are charging is not maket value and that they would not pay another penny? Would he cry crocodile tears that the gasoline suppliers are putting him out of business because they are charging more than he thinks they should? What does the business owner do when his own customers accuse him of charging too much? Does he lower the price for them?
Lois

1. The business owner can indeed whine about it. Sometimes he does. (this usually doesn’t fix anything, so after he’s done, he moves on to rest of his options, unlike some other people)
2. He can go to a competitor (if there is one available).
3. If there is no competitor, he can take a look at the option of cutting costs in order to stay in business while still making a reasonable profit. (of course, his employees may suffer and whine about it, but they’ve gotta follow the same list of options that he does).
4. If that’s not possible, he can quit the business and try something different.

Any questions?

Not at all. But the same goes if he can’t afford to pay his workers the price they set for their labor.

Any questions?

Yep, as I’ve already stated in parenthesis “the employees have to go through the same list of options”. So if the worker chooses to not budge, then the business owner either invests in more automated technology to replace them, enacts a hiring freeze, or just lays off a few and distributes the tasks among those that are remaining. Now you understand. Good job.

[ Edited: 05 August 2013 03:03 PM by Cloak ]
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Don’t get set into one form, adapt it and build your own, and let it grow, be like water. Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like water. Now you put water in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put water into a bottle it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.

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Posted: 05 August 2013 04:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 94 ]
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Cloak-If you could please take off your blinders for a moment and realize that I’m not insulting your precious unions, perhaps you’d understand what I’m saying (and what I’m not saying).

No, I really don’t think you are saying anything.  Like other threads you don’t have any points. You just like to argue.
So you are agreeing that other factors like unions also determine wages. Aside from this “market value” idea of yours.
Now that you have conceded this we can move onto your next hackneyed idea about unions over-reaching and negative consequences.
See all the pages you wasted trying to explain elementary “market forces” and “value of labor”?
Let’s recap too while we are at it.
People can legally form unions, and that will dictate what pay scale and benefits are. Unions and education and direct action and social/ political campaigns
adjust what employers will pay for wages and benefits.  Not just some idea about trading “bottled faucet water for cars” that you call “market value.”
It takes alot of hubris to come on here and attempt to explain economics and markets like you did.  Using 3rd grade analogies. And you don’t even know that you’re underwater. That’s the worst part!  It’s having to discuss this with you.
Secondly, now that we know you realize that Unions will dictate fairly, through a contract what employers are going to pay, we are left with your opinion on what
FFWs should be paid. You’ve been quite clear on this.

Obviously I hope we can move onto the next phase of your position.
That is that once Unions(and not your amorphous “market value”)determine what wages will be, you will counter that that is harmful still to your “amorphous market values” ideal.  The one you analogized with trading bottled water for cars.
So lets’ journey into your elementary ideas on how unions can be harmful and how they upset the market value of labor. Shall we?
Keep your posts shorter too.  Condense your main points. Then we can see how naked they are.  And ridiculous.
Also, if you feel that any of my points are wrong, or need further discussion, please point them out.

[ Edited: 05 August 2013 05:04 PM by VYAZMA ]
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Posted: 05 August 2013 05:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 95 ]
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Cloak-What you don’t understand is that I know some of the people who are asking for more of this money. Many of them are people who consistently make bad choices in their lives, and complain when people refuse to give them a handout after it. The people who are responsible for hiring have to deal with people like this on a regular basis. And many of them are trying to KEEP them, regardless of how little value they bring. This is the type of stuff that MANY employers agonize over when they are debating whether to let insufficiently productive employees go, especially those who they care about.

This is what you need to cull from your posts. Here’s an example above.
Is this supposed to be proof of something?  Is this indicative of the FFws?  Really?
I can’t take you seriously with this kind of garbage.
We are talking about a gigantic multi-billion dollar INDUSTRY, with thousands and thousands of employees in every state.  Not some folks you know down at the corner McD’s.
You bring too much anecdote and emotion into your discussions.
I’m talking history, economics and law.
You are talking about some friends you have at McDonalds and how FFWs deserve the low wages they get because they didn’t apply themselves.

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Posted: 05 August 2013 05:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 96 ]
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This is what you need to cull from your posts. Here’s an example above.
Is this supposed to be proof of something?  Is this indicative of the FFws?  Really?
I can’t take you seriously with this kind of garbage.

It’s posts like this as well as many others (e.g. “THIS IS JUST CONJECTURE AND WINDBAGGERY!!!!”) that show that you’re the one that’s getting emotional friend. Like I said, I think you need to take a break or something.

We are talking about a gigantic multi-billion dollar INDUSTRY, with thousands and thousands of employees in every state.

Yep.
 

I’m talking history, economics and law.

As am I. And stop freaking out whenever I bring in some personal examples. They aren’t the only things I’ve said, and you know that.

Seriously, you need to relax. You are taking this thing way too personally, friend.

[ Edited: 05 August 2013 07:33 PM by Cloak ]
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Don’t get set into one form, adapt it and build your own, and let it grow, be like water. Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like water. Now you put water in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put water into a bottle it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.

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Posted: 05 August 2013 05:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 97 ]
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VYAZMA - 05 August 2013 04:47 PM

No, I really don’t think you are saying anything.  Like other threads you don’t have any points. You just like to argue.

No, you just suffer from confirmation bias is all. And you don’t know how to have a civil engagement with people that you’ve decided that you don’t like. Not my problem.

So you are agreeing that other factors like unions also determine wages. Aside from this “market value” idea of yours.
Now that you have conceded this we can move onto your next hackneyed idea about unions over-reaching and negative consequences.
See all the pages you wasted trying to explain elementary “market forces” and “value of labor”?

Nope, I’ve conceded that from the very beginning. You’re the one who just got irked by the rest. That’s your problem. I didn’t invent the “market value” idea though. Thanks for the credit, but it wasn’t me.

It takes alot of hubris to come on here and attempt to explain economics and markets like you did.  Using 3rd grade analogies. And you don’t even know that you’re underwater. That’s the worst part!  It’s having to discuss this with you.

Nobody was talking to you in the first place friend. I was responding to comments by Jeciron and Lois. You’re the one that jumped in. If you are that upset over this, then find another forum. People like Lois obviously need to educate themselves on basic economic principles, and I demonstrated it. Perhaps you know better, but then again, I wasn’t addressing you, was I? YOU are the one who had a seizure after that. Maybe it was my “jingoism” that was showing, right (whatever the heck that actually means to you)? Is that what it was?

Secondly, now that we know you realize that Unions will dictate fairly, through a contract what employers are going to pay, we are left with your opinion on what
FFWs should be paid. You’ve been quite clear on this.

I didn’t say what I think they should be paid. It sounds like your confirmation bias is showing again. You need to do something about that, because it shows up in pretty much every thread in which we discuss anything.

So lets’ journey into your elementary ideas on how unions can be harmful and how they upset the market value of labor. Shall we?
Keep your posts shorter too.  Condense your main points. Then we can see how naked they are.  And ridiculous.
Also, if you feel that any of my points are wrong, or need further discussion, please point them out.

You are way too emotional to talk to. You have demonstrated, countless times that you cannot handle disagreement. You blow up all over the place. When you calm down, I’ll be ready to continue.

[ Edited: 05 August 2013 07:32 PM by Cloak ]
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Don’t get set into one form, adapt it and build your own, and let it grow, be like water. Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like water. Now you put water in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put water into a bottle it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.

- Bruce Lee -

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Posted: 06 August 2013 02:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 98 ]
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VYAZMA - 04 August 2013 11:53 AM

  However coal mines used to be the McDonald’s of today.

I get the analogy here, but I don’t think it’s accurate.

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Posted: 06 August 2013 03:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 99 ]
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StephenLawrence - 05 August 2013 05:03 AM
mid atlantic - 30 July 2013 07:34 PM

What are some thoughts on these revolutionary brothers and sisters? (sarcasm)

I’d need to know if $15 dollars an hour is an amount of money that people can live on up to standards they can reasonable aspire to?

If it isn’t then I’m on their side and I think we should all be.

Perhaps it is I dunno?

Stephen

It varies from city to city, but in NYC, $15.00 per hour is what they’re asking for. They make about $7.50 right now, which is the minimum wage in New York state - it’s not enough, they say.
NYC basically a place for the rich and poor, though. The middle class doesn’t belong there.

What are reasonable aspirational standards BTW?

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Posted: 06 August 2013 12:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 100 ]
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mid atlantic - 06 August 2013 03:01 AM

What are reasonable aspirational standards BTW?

To be able to feed yourself and your family With healthy food. To be able to afford accommodation to a decent standard.  To be able to plan for a good future, which means not being on a treadmill, but rather being able to end up owning your home (people can’t go on working to pay the rent forever). To be able to afford to pay for your childrens education and all that goes with it, uniforms, musical instruments e.t.c. To be able to pay for health care if needed. To be able to pay into a pension.

And finally to be able to have the occasional holiday.

Have I missed anything and would you want anything less for yourself?

Stephen

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Posted: 06 August 2013 03:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 101 ]
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You’re talking about the American Dream.

That dream is being regulated and taxed away.

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Posted: 06 August 2013 11:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 102 ]
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MikeYohe - 06 August 2013 03:05 PM

You’re talking about the American Dream.

That dream is being regulated and taxed away.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acLW1vFO-2Q

[ Edited: 06 August 2013 11:11 PM by mid atlantic ]
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Posted: 06 August 2013 11:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 103 ]
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StephenLawrence - 06 August 2013 12:57 PM
mid atlantic - 06 August 2013 03:01 AM

What are reasonable aspirational standards BTW?

To be able to feed yourself and your family With healthy food. To be able to afford accommodation to a decent standard.  To be able to plan for a good future, which means not being on a treadmill, but rather being able to end up owning your home (people can’t go on working to pay the rent forever). To be able to afford to pay for your childrens education and all that goes with it, uniforms, musical instruments e.t.c. To be able to pay for health care if needed. To be able to pay into a pension.

And finally to be able to have the occasional holiday.

Have I missed anything and would you want anything less for yourself?

Stephen

This is way too much; but it would be impossible to provide anyway.

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Posted: 07 August 2013 03:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 104 ]
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mid atlantic - 06 August 2013 11:09 PM
StephenLawrence - 06 August 2013 12:57 PM
mid atlantic - 06 August 2013 03:01 AM

What are reasonable aspirational standards BTW?

To be able to feed yourself and your family With healthy food. To be able to afford accommodation to a decent standard.  To be able to plan for a good future, which means not being on a treadmill, but rather being able to end up owning your home (people can’t go on working to pay the rent forever). To be able to afford to pay for your childrens education and all that goes with it, uniforms, musical instruments e.t.c. To be able to pay for health care if needed. To be able to pay into a pension.

And finally to be able to have the occasional holiday.

Have I missed anything and would you want anything less for yourself?

Stephen

This is way too much;...

Well, it’s not much to ask is it? Maybe you misunderstand. I can’t seriously imagine you asking for less.


1) To be able to feed yourself and your family With healthy food.

Is this too much?

2)To be able to afford accommodation to a decent standard.

By this I simply mean to have a shower and a toilet available, to have shelter from the elements which is safe and to have cooking facilities.

Is that too much?

3)To be able to plan for a good future, which means not being on a treadmill, but rather being able to end up owning your home

The point here is you have to stop working sometime and you’ll go on needing accomodation unless you drop dead on the day you die.

Is it too much to ask that you can have accomodation after you stop working?

4)To be able to afford to pay for your childrens education and all that goes with it, uniforms, musical instruments e.t.c.

Here I’m just talking about basic education, not anything special.

Is that too much to ask?

5) To be able to pay into a pension.

Again people have the same basic needs once they’ve stopped working so that has to be provided for somehow.

Is that too much to ask.

6) To be able to pay for health care if needed

Again I’m not talking about anything special. Just to be able get the treatment they need when sick.

Is that too much to ask?

but it would be impossible to provide anyway.

Well, it’s reasonable to want those things for people’s well being. And it’s reasonable to try to attain those people’s well being.

And it’s defeatist to say it’s impossible. It’s not impossible just hard to achieve.

What it would take is a great deal more fairness over division of wealth (amongst other things), which is, I suspect, why you don’t like the look of it.

[ Edited: 07 August 2013 03:58 AM by StephenLawrence ]
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Posted: 07 August 2013 04:26 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 105 ]
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Beautiful, StephenLawrence.  Well said.

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