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“Evil” does not exist?
Posted: 18 August 2013 08:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 211 ]
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The science world also said the same statements about Avaris a couple years ago. Look at what is being said about Avaris today. Talk about a 180.

Mike;
New data is discovered every day, causing 180s. That does not speak to other theories at all. It would only be meaningful if new data was discovered about the Exodus. “Scientific consensus” is a tricky term because there is no exact amount of time that can be spent looking for something before it is considered unlikely it will be found. There is always a chance that everyone who has an opinion can be wrong. But there is a point where that chance gets so low, it gets kinda silly to keep saying “we don’t really know.”

That said, the consensus is that the exodus did not occur. There are alternate theories that have evidence and a lack of evidence for the Bible story.

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2010/12/david-and-solomon/draper-text

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Posted: 18 August 2013 09:02 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 212 ]
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Scott,
I totally agree with you. But take it one step farther. Look at what has been happening in the religious world as far as controlling the facts and data.

The Jews do not want any new finds.
The Christians do not want any new finds.
The Muslims do not want any new finds.
Israel does not want any new finds.

Not only do they cover up data. They lie and change data. That said, they do little stuff trying to get credit and people to believe they want new finds, totally misdirection. 

The religious world is afraid of what is coming out of the ground and has been for some time.

How would you go about getting the truth and facts?

Just look at the past 10 years of Jesus bone box.

You can not trust what Israel is calling science.

Though he suggests interesting ideas and possibilities, you have to be a little cautious.

Simcha Jacobovici is not a scientist, he never claimed to be. He is an investigative reporter.

Just look at what Simcha Jacobovici has given us with Jesus’ bone box.

Go back and review all the facts and you will see that it clearly shows that religion is not really about Jesus or God.  People do not really give a dam about Jesus as a deity.

It is all in the mind and self fulfillment.

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Posted: 18 August 2013 09:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 213 ]
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Lausten RE: Post #211

I thought you guys would have picked up the fact that Moses left Memphis and went to Avaris then left on the Exodus from Avaris.  No Avaris, no Exodus. The National Geographic was posted in 2010 therefore it is not up to date on Avaris.

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Posted: 18 August 2013 11:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 214 ]
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Oh come on Mike. 3 years does not wipe out a century of archeology. Don’t be so dismissive. The discovery of one city does not unravel all other data.

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Posted: 18 August 2013 12:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 215 ]
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Lausten,
What I think we would classify as scientific archeology is not that old. Older archeology finds are being restudied today with carbon dating and DNA.

Genesis 47:27 states that ancient Israelites lived in a land called Goshen.

But Egypt did not allow any digging to find an Israelite settlement in Egypt.  It was found from satellites. No religious or Government wants or supports the diggings at Avaris. 

The discovery of one city does not unravel all other data.

I posted on June 17 the “Port of Perunefer” in Religion and Secularism. It is the next step to uncovering the past.

The big question is how old is Avaris. The Fort may be less than 3,800 years old but the town may be as old as 10,000 years making it the oldest city in Egypt. What about the burial grounds. If no graves are found then it would not be Egyptian. Sky burial from India would be the most likely candidate. What types of boats were used for trade, just river or ocean going? Did the building use a measuring system? If so who’s system. What did they eat? How did they store their food? What types of clothes were worn? What was the first written language used in the city.

Lausten,
A point to remember is that the Nile River ran by Avaris. That’s why Avaris was built on islands. The river changed course and Avaris is now in the desert.  The thinking is that at the time of Avaris you could travel from the Mediterranean to Avaris then by a real short cannel to the Red Sea. This would have made the Port of Perunefer located at the key trade point from East to West, a much better choice than Memphis. 

We know that Salem, the City of Gods is an old city. That would have made Salem a lot closer to a key point of civilization. Q, what do we know today about Salem? There are huge gaps in history.

Before new understandings of the bible are accepted, new theories have to be introduced. I think we are coming to that stage now.

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Posted: 18 August 2013 02:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 216 ]
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DarronS - 17 August 2013 08:23 PM

And then there is Psalm 137:9

Happy is the one who seizes your infants
  and dashes them against the rocks.

Does this sound like a loving god?

In Psalm 137, the psalmist laments his people being taken into captivity and the atrocities committed against them by the Babylonians.  Here’s his lament:

By the rivers of Babylon we sat and wept when we remembered Zion.  There on the poplars we hung our harps, for there our captors asked us for songs, our tormentors demanded songs of joy; they said, ‘Sing us one of the songs of Zion!’  How can we sing the songs of the LORD while in a foreign land?  If I forget you, Jerusalem, may my right hand forget its skill.  May my tongue cling to the roof of my mouth if I do not remember you, if I do not consider Jerusalem my highest joy.  Remember, LORD, what the Edomites did on the day Jerusalem fell. ‘Tear it down,’ they cried, ‘tear it down to its foundations!’  Daughter Babylon, doomed to destruction, happy is the one who repays you according to what you have done to us.  Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.”

The psalmist wants revenge for what has happened to him and his people.  He wants Babylon to pay for their atrocities.  It’s a human emotion.  If you want to understand God’s revelation on this matter, read the Book of Habakkuk.

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Posted: 18 August 2013 02:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 217 ]
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I don’t remember Bob Marley singing that last part.

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Posted: 18 August 2013 04:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 218 ]
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Mike,
I recognize that it is not in the interests of the three Judaic religions to support certain new findings as well that they would encourage such findings to be as convoluted as well. But going on Simcha’s own findings and assumptions, I am most skeptical that the ossuaries discovered have such shoddy etchings of their names, not to mention that they were all varying in language. It seems just as likely to me that that early [Crusaders ?] had collected such material and placed them there together, using it as an early attraction site. I don’t think that there ever was a real particular ‘Jesus’. I favor Joseph Atwill’s interpretation that the New Testament was a creation relating the War of the Jews. Although I have some alternate particular views regarding its inception, the evidence presented by Atwill is pretty convincing (see Caesar’s Messiah by him).
   
I think that the Exodus was written with the facts that Egyptian society cannot be ignored in an important history of any human civilization story. You can’t just hide those magnificent monuments of stone that are so evident of their apparent powers in the day. The story of the Exodus was granted as having the Jews wander the desert for 40 years. This obviously is suspect if taken literal. Since a generation is normally understood to be 40 years, it may be missing particular original data, but I’m guessing that Moses, being Egyptian for “leader” (As in Tutmosis, for example), referred possibly to Akhenatan since he was the source of Egyptian dismay when he commanded all other Gods illegal except for the Aten. His followers were likely what the Jews were giving themselves credit to as they were banned once the old order was re-established with Tut.

If you follow the history of the times too, you will discover that both Akhenaten and Ramses later had cities with their structures moved to new isolated desert locations (a generation in the desert??). The ark was a symbolic representation of Egypt in transporting stone structures both through the desert as sleds as well as boats, where possible. I wouldn’t doubt that the original “covenant” of Moses was literally stone remnants of Egyptian monument scrap, like pieces of an obelisk, say, that had inscriptions of the laws that was purportedly handed down from God to Moses. It would have been clever to hide this ark (sled/boat with stone obelisk pieces) eventually from the regular public as it would obviously point to its actual Egyptian source and arouse too much skepticism. [Holy of holies] As the traditional Egyptian society faded, the colonial influences that may have originally been imposed on Palestine made some of the Egyptian past their own in a newer adaptation.

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Posted: 18 August 2013 05:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 219 ]
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Scott,
Ossuaries are not Judah Jewish, yet they are next to the temple mount. The ossuaries started decades before Jesus and ended after Jesus. James, Jesus brother was said to be a high priest.
If Jesus was Judah Jewish then you would not have Christianity.

I think that Jesus and James were sent to Israel to teach the type of the Jewish religion that was in Alexandria where the biggest Jewish population and other temples was located. The locals revolted and got rid of Jesus and James and then the Jews from Egypt and the Romans showed up and put down the revolt. 

The story of the Exodus was granted as having the Jews wander the desert for 40 years. This obviously is suspect if taken literal.

I agree with the forty years.  Moses could not go into Israel until Egypt stopped warring with the Hittites. The wars alone took twenty years. Then the Hittites won. Had Moses entered Israel the Hittites would had war with Moses. Moses died waiting to get into Israel and Ramses also died. Then the Hittite empire fell apart and only then was Abraham able to come to agreement with Ramses’ son to enter the Hittite land of Israel and have peace with Egypt.

Akhenaten, I agree on your understanding. A very key person in what beliefs became the Jewish religion.

If you follow the history of the times too, you will discover that both Akhenaten and Ramses later had cities with their structures moved to new isolated desert locations (a generation in the desert??).

Akhenaten city was Fort Avaris, the summer fort of the Hyksos ruler. Then the Hyksos left and Akhenaten built Memphis and Avaris became the city of trade.

The ark was a symbolic representation of Egypt in transporting stone structures both through the desert as sleds as well as boats, where possible.

I would bet on boats. Avaris was built on islands in the Nile Delta. Later Ramses and Avaris became stranded in the desert after the Nile River moved west.

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Posted: 18 August 2013 06:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 220 ]
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Did you misinterpret what “Judaic” meant in my context? Judaic religion is anything based on Judaism, like Christianity and Islam. I wasn’t referencing the original Palestinian kingdom of Judah.

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Posted: 18 August 2013 08:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 221 ]
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Scott,
I need to use the Judah country because I think that Israel and Egypt had different types of Jewish religion than Judah.  A couple hundred miles away from Jerusalem was the most sophisticated city and the greatest university in the modern world and close to the time of Jesus it almost became the capital of the Roman Empire. I would think that the big land holders of Judah lived in Alexandra and were Jewish. When Judah declared itself a country I bet the Jews in Alexandra were none to happy.
The wealth of Judah was the olive oil. The oil was the reason Moses wanted the land of Israel.

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Posted: 19 August 2013 04:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 222 ]
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The oil was the reason Moses wanted the land of Israel.

Where do you come up with this stuff?

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Posted: 19 August 2013 08:04 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 223 ]
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GdB - 17 August 2013 02:15 AM
brmckay - 16 August 2013 08:48 AM

For a “non-hobby” you all are certainly devoted to it.

No, not at all. It just strikes me that atheists are asked again and again to prove non-existence of God/Zeus/Jupiter/Krishna, whatever somebody happens to believe. The correct answer is just: I find no reason to believe in God/Zeus/Jupiter/Krishna. So make your point why you think God/Zeus/Jupiter/Krishna exists. What follows then is never based on science, reason, or whatever; what follows is just dialectical sophistry.

Tell me about this “whatever”.  I’ve been laying out my version of it and get nothing but grief.

GdB - 17 August 2013 02:15 AM
brmckay - 16 August 2013 01:16 PM

Hint: mathematics is a metaphor used to describe certain aspects of the reality experienced as our universe.

It is not a metaphor. It is an abstraction, but abstractions can be fully valid, can be correct or wrong, and if correct have something to say about aspects of empirical reality.

Are dreams then “abstractions” as well? (I am assuming some level of sincere and unbiased observation of the phenomena on your part here.)

I suppose that I can grant you that metaphors may be a subset of this phenomena of abstraction?

And,...God an abstraction of Infinite Potential.

[ Edited: 19 August 2013 08:29 AM by brmckay ]
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Posted: 19 August 2013 08:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 224 ]
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Scott Mayers - 18 August 2013 07:13 AM

A theist is not just the simple Deist; it is all of its beliefs about it too. So religion cannot be divorced from theism.

I find it fascinating that your definition of these terms relate to Christianity.  Even the term Deist for you only goes back to the 17th century rise of Deism rather than Deus being the Latin translation of the Greek word Theos. 

A religious person who is accepted within the law has an ability to absolve their actions, no matter how bad, to be unaccountable should they be acting within the confines of their beliefs; On the other hand, an atheist who acts similarly, is accountable by law according to themselves. Who would you trust better to be in control of a nuclear arms launch missile, an atheist or any arbitrary believer in some god? If, for example, I was religious and had such power, I might be willing to sacrifice my own soul to eternal hell in order to “save” what I perceive to be most innocent by killing them before they have a chance to become evil, thus sending them to an eternal heaven.

That’s the most convoluted thinking I’ve ever heard.  I think you are inventing ways to make Christians suspect.  The truth is Christians are taught to obey the laws of the country in which they live.  They are taught to love others.  They are taught to leave all judgment up to God.  If a Christian decided to “sacrifice” his own soul and do what is abominable to God based on Christian teaching, then he has not acted according to his religion, but has left it.  On the other hand, if a bunch of atheists decide to bring a Communist Utopia to the world and in order to do that they must kill multiple millions of people and suppress all religion—oh wait, they actually did that.

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Posted: 19 August 2013 08:26 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 225 ]
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brmckay - 19 August 2013 08:04 AM

Tell me about this “whatever”.  I’ve been laying out my version of it but get nothing but grief.

All I wrote was pointing at the fact that an atheist has not much to explain. She must first ask what the person calling her an atheist believes, and then she can say “oh, that is what you believe. No, I don’t believe in that, never even heard of it before”. So in what sense then is atheism a belief?

brmckay - 19 August 2013 08:04 AM

Are dreams then “abstractions” as well? (I am assuming some level of sincere and unbiased observation of the phenomena on your part here.)

I suppose that I can grant you that metaphors may be a subset of this phenomena of abstraction?

And,...God an abstraction of Infinite Potential.

No.

No.

No idea what ‘Infinite Potential’ is. Any empirical hint or clue that something like that exists? Any prospect of some observation that might lead to its empirical proof? Do abstractions exist empirically? Metaphors?

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