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Posted: 29 January 2014 06:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
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Lausten and so many others, Where do you get these ideas from?  It’s obviously just regurgitated opinion with no basis in truth or fact.  Why don’t some folks here make an honest attempt and effort to learn the truth about the historical and archealogical evidence for the Bible being true?  Not to mention the EYE WITNESS expert testimony of the Apostles.  Ask any good court judge about the way the bible gives its testimony.  It’s rock solid with excellent corroboration.  (sp)

1)  “Absolutely everything you said was created well after the time of the original writing of the gospels, except the virgin birth and the resurrection, which were not in the first gospel written, Mark.”

Overcomer gave the basic tenants of true belief for salvation as preached/given by Jesus himself as well as the Apostles backing them up.  This is a consistent message by Jesus and all twelve He authorized to spread His gospel.  Once a person is saved then the Epistles kick in to guide the new believer in spiritual growth and godly speech/conduct/behavior.  This was all laid down early in the book of Acts (of the Apostles.  The Bible we have today is preserved by God from the Textus Receptus also known as the majority text which the King James Bible team used with some info from previous bibles like the Geneva, etc.

The NIV, NKJV, ESV, the Latin Vulgate and most non-KJV bibles are sourced from a very poor set of older docs called the minority text that has literally thousands of errors compared the MajTxt.  The minority text version originated in Alexandria, Egypt.  The whole Bible was done being written around 80-90 AD with John’s Book of Revelation.
He was the last survivor and died of natural cases.  Most of the others were martyred for their faith and that should say volumes for the books and the experience of walking with the actual God in person.  If you met Him and you can through His word and Spirit you would understand this unflinching unique Christian faith.

2)  Baptism is a work of faith meaning once a person believes and is Holy Spirit indwelled by faith (not works) then they will desire to be obedient and genuine by following Christs command to do so.  Repent(change your mind and I’ll add… with heartfelt sorrow for the past way of life and error)  about the above basic tenents and begin to conform to the instructions given by believing and be baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit by a pastor of a Bible believing church.

3)  “If you forced everyone who goes to church today to really declare their relationship with God, publicly witness to it, the number of “real” Christians would drop dramatically.” 

I’ll reword the above as ” If persecution were going on in America (it is going on like this elsewhere today) now like it was during the early church times in the Roman Empire you would see who the real Christians are and the number would surely drop when death and/or torture is right in one’s face as a reality.”  The time will come soon enough when every knee will confess Jesus Christ is God.  The time is now not later to believe.  God in the OT said my people are destroyed/perishing for lack of knowledge and today its DOCTRINAL ERROR.  This is the most common reason for so much confusion, denominationalism and liberal theology.  (edit/correction)  Hosea 4:6

4)  OT and NT both have scriptures that say “Man is not meant to lead his own life/path.  Every man/woman does what is right IN THEIR OWN EYES”  That is the basis for all the variety of beliefs/religions and most of the psudo intellectualism in forums all over the net who propose to be “free thinking”.  It’s as old a problem as man himself.  Trust the Word of God literally and that means Jesus who is the Word incarnate.

Peace and Love to you all.

[ Edited: 29 January 2014 11:30 AM by rodin46 ]
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Posted: 29 January 2014 07:11 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
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rodin46 - 29 January 2014 06:30 AM

Lausten and so many others, Where do you get these ideas from?  It’s obviously just regurgitated opinion with no basis in truth or fact. 

<sarcasm>I watched a bunch YouTubes and read some of that stuff by Archarya S</sarcasm>
What are your sources? And if you use the Bible, you need some additional evidence to back up your “EYE WITNESS” claims. The archaeological and textual evidence indicates the dates of the gospels you stated, but we don’t have any actual copies until the 3rd century.

[ Edited: 29 January 2014 07:14 AM by Lausten ]
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Posted: 29 January 2014 07:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
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Sorry ..what can I say ...paper-parchment doesn’t age well.  Maybe try reading what courts of law use as a guide to understand the circumstances of eye witness testimony.

You might start with the Dead Sea scrolls and other ancient preserved texts also. The copy of Isiah from then matches what we have today very closely.  I did my own homework. I didn’t sit in a forum trying to manipulate others into doing my footwork/homework.  smile  sarcasm   Not that you personally are doing that.

I’ll throw a bone…these are classics.  Halley’s Bible Handbook and Wilmington’s Guide to the Bible.  Buy and read them cover to cover.
Not to mention Luke was in his time was an outstanding historian and physician. 

You will receive a new education and that’s a good start.  Best companions to a KJV (no I’m not an onlyist).  They will help clear away all the garbage that you have believed about the Bible, Jesus,  the Christian faith, the world, the devil, angels, doctrines, can’t forget sin, man meaning myself, family and societies/cultures and much more.

[ Edited: 29 January 2014 07:41 AM by rodin46 ]
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Posted: 29 January 2014 08:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
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rodin46 - 29 January 2014 07:23 AM

Sorry ..what can I say ...paper-parchment doesn’t age well.  Maybe try reading what courts of law use as a guide to understand the circumstances of eye witness testimony.

Hmmmm,
about those eye witness accounts

Why Science Tells Us Not to Rely on Eyewitness Accounts
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/do-the-eyes-have-it/
~ ~ ~

The Problem with Eyewitness Testimony
http://agora.stanford.edu/sjls/Issue One/fisher&tversky;.htm
~ ~ ~

How reliable is eyewitness testimony?
Psychologists are helping police and juries rethink the role of eyewitness identifications and testimony.
http://www.apa.org/monitor/apr06/eyewitness.aspx

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

And eye-witness accounts from long dead people, handed down through many generations, adds a whole bunch more complexity,
don’t you think?

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Posted: 29 January 2014 08:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
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But, you know rodin,
the thing that amazes me the most about faith in a personal god -
is the ego it must take to believe a petty human can actually be in communion with and understand the Will of the Creator of all of creation.

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Posted: 29 January 2014 08:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
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rodin46 - 29 January 2014 06:30 AM

3) God in the OT said my people are perishing for lack or knowledge and today its DOCTRINAL ERROR.  This is the most common reason for so much confusion, denominationalism and liberal theology.

That lack of knowledge statement in the OT. Do you know where I could find it? Subject of interest for me. As I know more about religion than about the bible, I have just been to busy studying religion to find the time to read the bible.

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Posted: 29 January 2014 09:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
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rodin46 - 29 January 2014 07:23 AM

Sorry ..what can I say ...paper-parchment doesn’t age well.  Maybe try reading what courts of law use as a guide to understand the circumstances of eye witness testimony.

I don’t think you’ll find much precedent in law for accepting the 2,000 year old written testimony. That would be the science of history.

rodin46 - 29 January 2014 07:23 AM

You might start with the Dead Sea scrolls

from the 4th century.

rodin46 - 29 January 2014 07:23 AM

Not to mention Luke was in his time was an outstanding historian and physician. 

And what would be your source for that statement? Other than the book of Luke itself.

and one more…

I’ll throw a bone…these are classics.  Halley’s Bible Handbook

Is this quote from Halley’s accurate?

“Accept the Bible just as it is, for exactly what it claims to be. Don’t worry about the theories of the critics. The ingenious efforts of modern criticism to undermine the historical reliability of the Bible will pass…”

Sooooo, you want me to read a study guide that tells me to ignore other study guides. Kinda the opposite of open-minded inquiry, wouldn’t you say?

[ Edited: 29 January 2014 09:25 AM by Lausten ]
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Posted: 29 January 2014 12:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
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Mike Yohe:  Hosea 4:6 is the ch/verse.  I exhort you to follow up on reading the Bible.  Get 1 or 2 friends to try it.  Struggle with it…try praying…do you’re own or go to a Independent Baptist church that has a class in the basement where you don’t have to mix with the regulars much until you are feeling ok with being there.  A good one is Faith Bible Institute(.com).  They are all over the world and the Pastor John Yates is a pretty solid teacher/pastor with 25 yrs experience.  Every week I went for 3 yrs straight and I was never bored, confused or misled by that program.

Sit under a man chosen by God to teach like John Yates and you will be in for the time of your life.  When/if the Spirit removes the blinders the Bible will become slowly but increasingly FASCINATING, marvelous and precious beyond gold and silver.  I say if because a person can study the Bible but still hold a giant grudge, remain skeptical or have a wrong motive from hardness of experience that they have misattributed to God being unfair, etc. 

Interesting… that so many atheist/agnostics know so much about the worlds religions but can’t make a simple confession like Mike did.  That was the right attitude and a humble truth about himself and I assure you God responds to that kind of person….always.  Might be yes, no or wait but He answers that person.  Your answer is the first thing in this reply. 
Science does not trump the Bible.  There is plenty of science in the Bible from God.  Example: “The sphere of the earth hangs on nothing”== Gravity

Scientists in the dark ages thought the earth was flat and barbers let out blood (humors) killing many not helping. The Bible says the heavens and earth declare His glory.  If we didn’t believe and ask for salvation He said then “the rocks would cry out!” 

I hope you feel my enthusiasm and love for Jesus and all people in my replies.  I was an ass of a man (atheist) for most of my 50+ years.  Intellectual PRIDE which makes no sense because each has their talents and gifts. I am being changed into His image.  Sometimes quick and sometimes slowly which produces spiritual character and patience. 

Sanctification and its free. My sins have been forgiven and I am adopted by the Most High true God.  You shall surely be made free.  Yes! 

There are some tough passages about atheists like “only a fool says there is no God”  and “Even the demons know there’s a God and they shudder”  So don’t close your mind to what the good book says. 

Halley was a bit of a stickler and from a time that didn’t mess around.  As we are serious about these truths.  It’s serious stuff.  He was talking about the “literary critics”.  Just remember that the Bible holds some of the worlds most sublime outstanding writing ever committed to vellum/parchment/stone/paper…anywhere in any time…the honest critic has to bow to the quality of its prose.  Psalms, Job and Ecclesiates are unequaled in world literature says many famous authors themselves.

Handed down ?  The books were sealed and done by ~90 AD There’s been not one jot or tittle written since then.  Now man will play with the book yes and he is accountable to God for it.  There was a guy on one of the Bible committees for an NIV type of version and when he learned the truth later about his false contribution he was contrite and afraid for what he had help publish. 
And it doesn’t take ego to know God…it takes the opposite…humility which many here lack in there writing/passing and agreeing with opinions of so called experts and wrong dates.  Shouldn’t expect anything from God when that’s the attitude and that’s what He said not me. “You don’t receive because you ask amiss (with wrong motives like lust and covetousness).


Radio Carbon dating puts the scrolls in a range ~2000 yrs ago not a specific century like 4 AD.  The above comment is an example of playing loose with science facts which is typical but I digress.

http://dwb4.unl.edu/Chem/CHEM869Z/CHEM869ZLinks/www.physics.arizona.edu/physics/newsletter/summer95/deadsea2.html

.

[ Edited: 29 January 2014 12:44 PM by rodin46 ]
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Posted: 29 January 2014 02:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
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Okay, I might have been hasty about the dating of the scrolls. They are all OT and apocryphal works though, so I’m not sure how they relate to Christianity.

And get it over already about my reference to the NIV Bible. This is commonly discussed among scholars.

Biblegateway states it, seemingly without controversy

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+16:9-20

Several scholars have opinions here

http://www.bible-researcher.com/endmark.html

Even those who agree with you at least agree that it is something that needs to be addressed

https://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=13&article=704

I found other references that refer to “earlier writings” and other slippery language. Those are most likely the references you would prefer.

This one at least included dates, which are mostly well past your 90 AD FYI.

http://studylight.org/com/guz/view.cgi?book=mr&chapter=016

It includes Christian writers appearing to be aware of these verses. But even there it has only one that is dated 100 AD and others later, mostly much later. And honestly, every other time I have taken the time to track down claims like this, I’ve found strong proof they are bogus.

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Posted: 29 January 2014 06:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
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rodin46 - 29 January 2014 12:33 PM

Mike Yohe:  Hosea 4:6 is the ch/verse.  I exhort you to follow up on reading the Bible. 

Rodin46,
Thanks for the reply on “knowledge”.  It made a lot of sense to me. It would make better sense if they would have use Gnostic, which means “Knowledge”. I will have to check up on the translation. On the timeline it is almost too early to be Greek in meaning.

As far as reading the bible, the greatest book ever written. Nobody should try and comprehend the bible unless they understand religion first. That’s hooking the cart in front of the horse like the American belief system.

First I had to figure out which “God” and which religion Hosea was talking about. The religion was one of the “Religion of the Children of Abraham” at a time of great difficulties for the area. It was more in the Samaria branch of the religion, before the Jewish religion was formed.

At this time period this “God” of Hosea was depicted as the lion, leopard, bear and many others. It is more in line with the Egyptian Gods. The other main God of the people in Hosea’s time and area was the god Baal.
Hosea was a title name, meaning “salvation”. And Hosea was preaching that man should make a contract with “God”, very Egyptian.

What I got from just from a quick look. Greed had taken ahold of Samaria people in the country of Israel. Hosea was trying to bring the people in to a religion that did not allow “greed”. And that would have been the Amen religion out of Egypt. Mostly the same rules and same laws because Moses designed his religion on Amen. So Hosea was wanting the people to embrace and make a contract. This would create a strong government and loyal army. But local Baal religion was giving him trouble and before he got his task done, Samaria (Israel) fell to the larger empire. The people were allowed to continual their religion which developed into the Samaritan religion and is still active today, but very small. 
Thanks, Mike

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Posted: 30 January 2014 02:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]
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Well Mike you have some true info in your reply however you have a lot of it misapplied and misinterpreted. 

1)  Gnosticism was present during the coming of Christ and clearly preached against but the knowledge gained was mystical in origin.  That’s part of why the freemasons use a big G in their symbol.  Not plain knowledge like read this book and attempt to comprehend and understand it’s meanings of the authors intent.

2)  “Nobody should try and comprehend the bible unless they understand religion first. That’s hooking the cart in front of the horse like the American belief system.”

Bull poop.  Comparative religion classes/study will produce confusion by attempting to shift belief origins and consequently inhibit clarity.  In my research that is by design and its evil obfuscation of truth.  The Bible itself explains what it wants to and what He wants us to know.  It is sufficient as it states.  Right now we are on a need to know basis with God as children.

  No one will ever understand the Bible and it’s God completely ever.  He is beyond our full understanding in the flesh.  In the Spirit we will know Him as we should and in the flesh with the Spirit we do get a good understanding and it’s plenty good enough for the true believer. 

3)  On all the remaining stuff you wrote about:  You would need a good OT bible class on the Hebrew fathers, the Exodus, the promised land, Judges, the Kingdom, and especially the Exile and Restoration.

Otherwise you will be given explanations like the kind you gave for that time in history. i.e Some true facts but twisted with historical Egyptian paganism.  The main problem for Israel then was that they wanted to be like the other surrounding neighbors and their culture and not be Gods people.  That was partly what brought them down as a holy nation.  Sounds familiar don’t it.  I want to do what I want to do. Not do what God wants done in and with my life.

Another part was the prophets and kings had been corrupted too and that led to Baal worship amongst other evils.  A nearly complete breakdown in leadership and governance ensued.  Not unlike Rome, Greece, Assyria and Babylon.  The four sections of Daniels statue vision/dream and the major past and one present world great civilizations.  The Holy Roman Empire is still in obvious operation.

[ Edited: 30 January 2014 03:02 AM by rodin46 ]
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Posted: 30 January 2014 12:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]
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rodin46 - 30 January 2014 02:41 AM

Well Mike you have some true info in your reply however you have a lot of it misapplied and misinterpreted. 

Rodin46, I disagree. But I will agree that in the belief system you cannot apply many of the true historical facts that we are now aware of today.

rodin46 - 30 January 2014 02:41 AM

1)  Gnosticism was present during the coming of Christ and clearly preached against but the knowledge gained was mystical in origin.  That’s part of why the freemasons use a big G in their symbol.  Not plain knowledge like read this book and attempt to comprehend and understand it’s meanings of the authors intent.

Rodin46, I hear you, but why do you think that we have 30,000 different religious entities in the United States alone. Ask ten people to read the bible and they will have different ideas.

Belief is in the mind. I can tell you that the color of an orange is blue and we could argue for many years and never settle the argument. That is because we are talking about my belief. And if you are going to argue belief, then CFI is the wrong site. If you want to argue facts and theories, then this is a subject of interest to me. Get me truth and knowledge, that’s what I seek.

I did not know that the Freemasons used the big “G”. That is really cool.

All conversations should start from a good base.  You use the bible and I want to fully understand religion first, so that I can properly read a book that is written in another time of history and get the idea and thoughts that the book was trying to communicate.  I did read the bible once, but it was fifty years ago and I really don’t remember anything other than a bunch of crazy ideas, so I can’t count that as really reading the bible. And I have trouble spelling and most of the names I could not pronounce back then.

rodin46 - 30 January 2014 02:41 AM

1)  Gnosticism was present during the coming of Christ

No kidding, Jesus was Gnostic.

rodin46 - 30 January 2014 02:41 AM

{and clearly preached against but the knowledge gained was mystical in origin.}

Jesus preached for Gnostic, the bible preached against Gnostic. Just try reading the bible in Gnostic format and you will really begin to understand the teachings of Jesus.

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Posted: 30 January 2014 12:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]
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rodin46 - 30 January 2014 02:41 AM

2)  “Nobody should try and comprehend the bible unless they understand religion first. That’s hooking the cart in front of the horse like the American belief system.”

Bull poop.  Comparative religion classes/study will produce confusion by attempting to shift belief origins and consequently inhibit clarity.  In my research that is by design and its evil obfuscation of truth.  The Bible itself explains what it wants to and what He wants us to know.  It is sufficient as it states.  Right now we are on a need to know basis with God as children.

What do you want to learn? The teachings of Jesus or the teachings of the Christian religion (a belief system).

This brings us to the point of “God”. Don’t you understand that “God” varied a little in the different religions, even if those religion evolved from the same “God”?

This is why if you want to learn the religion of Jesus you need to first understand what “God” is. And to do that you will need a timeline with the evolution of “God”.

rodin46 - 30 January 2014 02:41 AM

  No one will ever understand the Bible and it’s God completely ever.  He is beyond our full understanding in the flesh.  In the Spirit we will know Him as we should and in the flesh with the Spirit we do get a good understanding and it’s plenty good enough for the true believer.

Religion is easy to understand, so is “God”. What you are saying is totally a Christian cop-out and if you believe that we need to get together about some swamp land in Florida. 

You’re trying to make religion and God fit into your belief system and you’re having trouble. I had no trouble understanding God or religion, and I like what the old God and religious system has done for mankind. God created earth for mankind. Then mankind changed God and things went to hell. Jesus was just trying to go back to the old Gnostic type of God and system that was good for mankind.

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Posted: 30 January 2014 12:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]
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rodin46 - 30 January 2014 02:41 AM

3)  On all the remaining stuff you wrote about:  You would need a good OT bible class on the Hebrew fathers, the Exodus, the promised land, Judges, the Kingdom, and especially the Exile and Restoration.

Rodin46, the more you learn about religion the more you will understand that the bible clearly shows the evolution of religion and that there is not one original idea in the bible. A lot of the stories are not even original. You should broaden you knowledge base outside of the bible and try and understand the people and the laws and how they lived.

rodin46 - 30 January 2014 02:41 AM

Otherwise you will be given explanations like the kind you gave for that time in history. i.e Some true facts but twisted with historical Egyptian paganism.

 
Egypt had one main god, Amen-Ra. And this “Egyptian paganism” as you call it is the base for the religion and customs in the bible that are still being use today.

rodin46 - 30 January 2014 02:41 AM

The main problem for Israel then was that they wanted to be like the other surrounding neighbors and their culture and not be Gods people.  That was partly what brought them down as a holy nation.  Sounds familiar don’t it.  I want to do what I want to do. Not do what God wants done in and with my life.

A little muddy here. I’ll try and clear it up. The time we were taking about “Hosea”, Israel was mainly “the religion of the Children of Abraham”. The bible did not follow the Israel branch but instead evolved from the Judea branch of religion. Israel only existed for 103 years, so it was a young startup nation that got taken over before it got its act together. And Hosea was trying to implement a change in religion that would put more balance in the wealth of the nation. The poor had no reason to fight for Israel.

rodin46 - 30 January 2014 02:41 AM

Another part was the prophets and kings had been corrupted too and that led to Baal worship amongst other evils.  A nearly complete breakdown in leadership and governance ensued.  Not unlike Rome, Greece, Assyria and Babylon.  The four sections of Daniels statue vision/dream and the major past and one present world great civilizations.  The Holy Roman Empire is still in obvious operation.

I think you are wrong here, the Baal religion had always been a main Canaan religion, and Abraham brought in the new Egyptian religion to the area. Baal had been around and was widely used in many nations long before Hosea and Abraham, and long after.

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Posted: 30 January 2014 10:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]
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All I can say is your imagination is pretty vivid.  God evolving?  Egypt was pantheistic.  That is proven by still standing antiquities and museum pieces. 

” And this “Egyptian paganism” as you call it is the base for the religion and customs in the bible that are still being use today. ”  Lol   That would make Christianity a mixture of pantheism and monotheism which is abjectly false and disproved by the Scriptures themselves. 

You’re simply trying to fit your ideas, and I suspect they aren’t yours but some other person or groups ideas that you agree with, with the Bibles historical writings. 

Like this statement for example:  “The bible did not follow the Israel branch but instead evolved from the Judea branch of religion.”

Like I said read the Exile and Restoration books. There is no evolution of ideas in the Bible at all.  They are a series of events that took place as a result of the disobedience of Hebrew people and the resulting punishment that always accompanies such human decisions with a just God being sovereign over His creation.

Hey as an aside,  Ever wonder or research why America has an obelisk as its national monument?  smile

[ Edited: 30 January 2014 10:18 PM by rodin46 ]
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