Australian Chiropractors warned about anti vaccine advice
Posted: 13 August 2013 09:58 AM   [ Ignore ]
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Australian chiropractors warned against opposing vaccination

In an attempt to make chiropractors comply with scientific views about vaccination, the Chiropractic Board of Australia has (a) ordered practitioners to remove all anti-vaccination material from their Web sites and clinics, (b) removed several courses from the list of approved continuing education programs, and (c) introduced random audits of practitioner compliance with the Board’s registration standards. In a press release, board president Dr. Phililp Donato said, “‘We will not tolerate registered chiropractors giving misleading or unbalanced advice to patients, or providing advice or care that is not in the patient’s best interests.” [The Chiropractic Board of Australia cracks down to protect the public. Media release, Aug 8, 2013]

http://www.chiropracticboard.gov.au/News/2013-08-08-media-release.aspx

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Posted: 13 August 2013 11:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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That is a novel approach to the problem but I’m not sure its the best approach. People who are anti-vaccine are inherently suspicious and believe in the big business/ big government conspiracy meme. I am concerned that this edict may just feed into that and lend credence to that whole idea in the minds of some.

I think it wold be better to try and educate chiropractors during training. They could more easily adjust the core curriculum of chiropractic schools to promote the idea of vaccination and eliminate the anit-vaccine ideology so at least young chiropractors would be entering practice with a better understanding of the subject and be less susceptible to the pseudos-cientific arguments.

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Posted: 14 August 2013 08:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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Seems to me that if someone’s going to dismiss facts because they buy into Big Brother conspiracies, they’re also going to dismiss it when it’s part of a curriculum.  Probably just assuming it’s more propaganda from the Ministry of Truth.  A lot of these folks are just lost causes.

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Posted: 14 August 2013 08:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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I’m not sure chiropractic students are all lost causes. Most of them believe what they believe not because they were big believers prior to their training. I can’t speak for al of them but I think a fair number have simply been manipulated to believe this in school and once out of training their livelihood depends on them continuing this belief system.

A lot of students who go to chiropractic school don’t go because they always wanted to be a chiropractor. Many of them go because they could not get into medical school. I think a lot of them would actually prefer more traditional training.

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Posted: 14 August 2013 12:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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Unfortunately, there is a persistant, entrenched connection between chiropractic and other forms of alternative therapy. While chiro may be effective for very limited conditions (though not all research supports this), it is based on a fundamentally false theoretical premise (the vertebral subluxation), and it is routinely employed far beyond anything that can reasonably be justified by research. Anyone trained in chiropractic, therefore, is almost automatically practicing based on either a fundamental ignroance or misunderstanding of science, or simply a lack of concern for what science has demonstrated to be true or false. It is not surprising, then, that the number of chiropractors who practice strictly limited manipulative therapy for musculoskeletal pain, which can be justified scientifically, is quite small. Anti-vaccine activism, nonsensical nutritional supplement and herbal remedy use, colonics, and all other manner of quackery are also commonly employed or recommended by chiropractors.

While I think it worthwhile to try and change this culture thorugh better education, I am not optimistic that this will dramatically reduce the sympathy for pseudoscience among chiropractors. So it seems reasonable to me to also place legal and regulatory restrictions on their promotion of such practices. The growing trend towards expanding the scope of licensure for chiropractors, naturopaths, and others with a cultural and theoretical opposition to basic, well-demonstrated scientific medical practices, seems a dangerous trend, and I would love to see practice boards more strictly limit the activities of such alternative practitioners. Of course, you can’t legislate or regulate people out of bad ideas, so education is also an important step (though I’m not always sure you can educate people out of such ideas past a certain point either). But the two aren’t mutually exclusive, of course.

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Posted: 14 August 2013 01:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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macgyver - 13 August 2013 11:32 AM

That is a novel approach to the problem but I’m not sure its the best approach. People who are anti-vaccine are inherently suspicious and believe in the big business/ big government conspiracy meme. I am concerned that this edict may just feed into that and lend credence to that whole idea in the minds of some.

I think it wold be better to try and educate chiropractors during training. They could more easily adjust the core curriculum of chiropractic schools to promote the idea of vaccination and eliminate the anit-vaccine ideology so at least young chiropractors would be entering practice with a better understanding of the subject and be less susceptible to the pseudos-cientific arguments.

How much success has anyone had on changing their core curriculum in any area so far?  The point is, the essence of their philosophy of health care is completely at odds with an evidence-based one.

I wonder if American chiropractors buy into the anti-vaccine wave.  (I haven’t heard.) It would certainly fit chiropractic philosophy very well because they feed off “alternative medicine” and anti-government hysteria. I don’t see them changing their curriculum or their philosophy; it would seriously interfere with the toehold they have been able to maintain on a substantial percentage of the public.

Lois

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Posted: 14 August 2013 01:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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macgyver - 14 August 2013 08:59 AM

I’m not sure chiropractic students are all lost causes. Most of them believe what they believe not because they were big believers prior to their training. I can’t speak for al of them but I think a fair number have simply been manipulated to believe this in school and once out of training their livelihood depends on them continuing this belief system.

A lot of students who go to chiropractic school don’t go because they always wanted to be a chiropractor. Many of them go because they could not get into medical school. I think a lot of them would actually prefer more traditional training.


Maybe, but they’ve already been injected with chiropractor venom. 

Lois

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Posted: 14 August 2013 03:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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I based of my guarded optimism on the fact that the chiropractic board themselves are pushing for this ruling and I assumed that the board would be made up of chiro practitioners as most are in the U.S. I assumed that if chiropractors were asking for this restriction it might signal a willingness to change but upon further investigation I am not sure the board is indeed made up of chiropractors.

Ideally no one should be expressing “expert” opinions on things they are not experts on. Unfortunately the public assumes that all health care professionals are fully and well educated on all aspects of medicine and put greater value on the opinions of some health care providers than they should. When a chiropractor voices an opinion on vaccines a patient will assume they are more knowledgable about vaccines than the average person and that is clearly not true. I’m not sure exactly how we regulate that without crossing the line on 1st amendment freedoms though ( or whatever the australian equivalent is)

As an example I have a medical assistant who draws blood and does EKG’s in my office. For those who don;t know what a medical assistants training is like, they have only a few months training in the limited clinical procedures they are expected to assist with. Their medical knowledge is next to nill. Despite this some of my patient put significant confidence in advice my MA gave them on issues of diet or opinions about medical topics in the news. I have spoken to her several times about this and completely restricted her from discussing anything medical with patients because her opinions are not informed or expert and patients put too much value on them. She has learned her lesson but I find that many members of the medical community from MA’s to PA’s to nurses and right up to MD’s ( Dr Oz is just one of many) often expound on subjects they have no business giving opinions on. There is a feeling of pride when someone asks for your expert opinion and the less expert a person is the more difficult it seems to be for them to resist the temptation to give their opinion on things they know nothing about. Chiropractors are no different and it may be very difficult to accomplish that with a law. It would be interesting to see what the outcome is though.

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Posted: 20 September 2013 03:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
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macgyver - 14 August 2013 03:15 PM

Ideally no one should be expressing “expert” opinions on things they are not experts on. Unfortunately the public assumes that all health care professionals are fully and well educated on all aspects of medicine and put greater value on the opinions of some health care providers than they should. When a chiropractor voices an opinion on vaccines a patient will assume they are more knowledgable about vaccines than the average person and that is clearly not true. I’m not sure exactly how we regulate that without crossing the line on 1st amendment freedoms though ( or whatever the australian equivalent is)
.

So should I not be writing in this forum?  smile

Have any advice on how we can distinguish an “expert” then.

Recently got hurt during martial arts training and now your post is kind of scaring me from seeing a doctor (not really, but you get the idea.)

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Posted: 20 September 2013 05:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
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I.J. Abdul Hakeem - 20 September 2013 03:20 PM
macgyver - 14 August 2013 03:15 PM

Ideally no one should be expressing “expert” opinions on things they are not experts on. Unfortunately the public assumes that all health care professionals are fully and well educated on all aspects of medicine and put greater value on the opinions of some health care providers than they should. When a chiropractor voices an opinion on vaccines a patient will assume they are more knowledgable about vaccines than the average person and that is clearly not true. I’m not sure exactly how we regulate that without crossing the line on 1st amendment freedoms though ( or whatever the australian equivalent is)
.

So should I not be writing in this forum?  smile

Have any advice on how we can distinguish an “expert” then.

Recently got hurt during martial arts training and now your post is kind of scaring me from seeing a doctor (not really, but you get the idea.)

I think you are missing the point. You should see a person who is truly an expert on the particular question you have. Chiropractors are not medical doctors, are not trained in medical science and therefor know nothing more about vaccines than a shoe maker or an auto repairman.

If you have a brain tumor you don’t go to a dermatologist for advice you go to a neurosurgeon. If you strained your back or injured your shoulder doing martial arts you see an orthopedist. That doesn’t mean every neurosurgeon is going to be THE BEST neurosurgeon but any neurosurgeon is going to be more of an expert on brain tumors than a foot doctor or a cardiologist.

The bottom line is that chiropractors really are not experts on anything medical since they don’t study medicine. They’re field of expertise, if you can call it that, is an unproven set of ideas about an unrecognized force in the body which they claim can be manipulated to cure and treat diseases.

[ Edited: 20 September 2013 05:29 PM by macgyver ]
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Posted: 20 September 2013 09:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
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macgyver - 20 September 2013 05:22 PM
I.J. Abdul Hakeem - 20 September 2013 03:20 PM
macgyver - 14 August 2013 03:15 PM

Ideally no one should be expressing “expert” opinions on things they are not experts on. Unfortunately the public assumes that all health care professionals are fully and well educated on all aspects of medicine and put greater value on the opinions of some health care providers than they should. When a chiropractor voices an opinion on vaccines a patient will assume they are more knowledgable about vaccines than the average person and that is clearly not true. I’m not sure exactly how we regulate that without crossing the line on 1st amendment freedoms though ( or whatever the australian equivalent is)
.

So should I not be writing in this forum?  smile

Have any advice on how we can distinguish an “expert” then.

Recently got hurt during martial arts training and now your post is kind of scaring me from seeing a doctor (not really, but you get the idea.)

I think you are missing the point. You should see a person who is truly an expert on the particular question you have. Chiropractors are not medical doctors, are not trained in medical science and therefor know nothing more about vaccines than a shoe maker or an auto repairman.

If you have a brain tumor you don’t go to a dermatologist for advice you go to a neurosurgeon. If you strained your back or injured your shoulder doing martial arts you see an orthopedist. That doesn’t mean every neurosurgeon is going to be THE BEST neurosurgeon but any neurosurgeon is going to be more of an expert on brain tumors than a foot doctor or a cardiologist.

The bottom line is that chiropractors really are not experts on anything medical since they don’t study medicine. They’re field of expertise, if you can call it that, is an unproven set of ideas about an unrecognized force in the body which they claim can be manipulated to cure and treat diseases.


If you have a brain tumor and go to a dermatologist he would most likely direct you to the right doctor.  A chiropractor would say, “You’ve come to the right place. Let me adust your spine.” (“Come into my living room,” said the spider to the fly.)

Lois

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Posted: 20 September 2013 09:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
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Lois - 20 September 2013 09:04 PM
macgyver - 20 September 2013 05:22 PM
I.J. Abdul Hakeem - 20 September 2013 03:20 PM
macgyver - 14 August 2013 03:15 PM

Ideally no one should be expressing “expert” opinions on things they are not experts on. Unfortunately the public assumes that all health care professionals are fully and well educated on all aspects of medicine and put greater value on the opinions of some health care providers than they should. When a chiropractor voices an opinion on vaccines a patient will assume they are more knowledgable about vaccines than the average person and that is clearly not true. I’m not sure exactly how we regulate that without crossing the line on 1st amendment freedoms though ( or whatever the australian equivalent is)
.

So should I not be writing in this forum?  smile

Have any advice on how we can distinguish an “expert” then.

Recently got hurt during martial arts training and now your post is kind of scaring me from seeing a doctor (not really, but you get the idea.)

I think you are missing the point. You should see a person who is truly an expert on the particular question you have. Chiropractors are not medical doctors, are not trained in medical science and therefor know nothing more about vaccines than a shoe maker or an auto repairman.

If you have a brain tumor you don’t go to a dermatologist for advice you go to a neurosurgeon. If you strained your back or injured your shoulder doing martial arts you see an orthopedist. That doesn’t mean every neurosurgeon is going to be THE BEST neurosurgeon but any neurosurgeon is going to be more of an expert on brain tumors than a foot doctor or a cardiologist.

The bottom line is that chiropractors really are not experts on anything medical since they don’t study medicine. They’re field of expertise, if you can call it that, is an unproven set of ideas about an unrecognized force in the body which they claim can be manipulated to cure and treat diseases.


If you have a brain tumor and go to a dermatologist he would most likely direct you to the right doctor.  A chiropractor would say, “You’ve come to the right place. Let me adust your spine.” (“Come into my living room,” said the spider to the fly.)

Lois


Actually, it was am English spider and he said “parlour.”

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Posted: 20 September 2013 09:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
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For the record


Mary Howitt  (1799-1888)


The Spider And The Fly


“Will you walk into my parlor?” said the spider to the fly;
“‘Tis the prettiest little parlor that ever you may spy.
The way into my parlor is up a winding stair,
And I have many curious things to show when you are there.”
“Oh no, no,” said the little fly; “to ask me is in vain,
For who goes up your winding stair can ne’er come down again.”

“I’m sure you must be weary, dear, with soaring up so high.
Well you rest upon my little bed?” said the spider to the fly.
“There are pretty curtains drawn around; the sheets are fine and thin,
And if you like to rest a while, I’ll snugly tuck you in!”
“Oh no, no,” said the little fly, “for I’ve often heard it said,
They never, never wake again who sleep upon your bed!”

Said the cunning spider to the fly: “Dear friend, what can I do
To prove the warm affection I’ve always felt for you?
I have within my pantry good store of all that’s nice;
I’m sure you’re very welcome - will you please to take a slice?”
“Oh no, no,” said the little fly; “kind sir, that cannot be:
I’ve heard what’s in your pantry, and I do not wish to see!”

“Sweet creature!” said the spider, “you’re witty and you’re wise;
How handsome are your gauzy wings; how brilliant are your eyes!
I have a little looking-glass upon my parlor shelf;
If you’d step in one moment, dear, you shall behold yourself.”
“I thank you, gentle sir,” she said, “for what you’re pleased to say,
And, bidding you good morning now, I’ll call another day.”

The spider turned him round about, and went into his den,
For well he knew the silly fly would soon come back again:
So he wove a subtle web in a little corner sly,
And set his table ready to dine upon the fly;
Then came out to his door again and merrily did sing:
“Come hither, hither, pretty fly, with pearl and silver wing;
Your robes are green and purple; there’s a crest upon your head;
Your eyes are like diamond bright, but mine are dull as lead!”

Alas, alas! how very soon this silly little fly,
Hearing his wily, flattering words, came slowly flitting by;
With buzzing wings she hung aloft, then near and nearer grew,
Thinking only of her brilliant eyes and green and purple hue,
Thinking only of her crested head. Poor, foolish thing! at last
Up jumped the cunning spider, and fiercely held her fast;
He dragged her up his winding stair, into the dismal den -
Within his little parlor - but she ne’er came out again!

And now, dear little children, who may this story read,
To idle, silly flattering words I pray you ne’er give heed;
Unto an evil counselor close heart and ear and eye,
And take a lesson from this tale of the spider and the fly.

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Posted: 05 October 2013 05:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
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macgyver - 20 September 2013 05:22 PM
I.J. Abdul Hakeem - 20 September 2013 03:20 PM
macgyver - 14 August 2013 03:15 PM

Ideally no one should be expressing “expert” opinions on things they are not experts on. Unfortunately the public assumes that all health care professionals are fully and well educated on all aspects of medicine and put greater value on the opinions of some health care providers than they should. When a chiropractor voices an opinion on vaccines a patient will assume they are more knowledgable about vaccines than the average person and that is clearly not true. I’m not sure exactly how we regulate that without crossing the line on 1st amendment freedoms though ( or whatever the australian equivalent is)
.

So should I not be writing in this forum?  smile

Have any advice on how we can distinguish an “expert” then.

Recently got hurt during martial arts training and now your post is kind of scaring me from seeing a doctor (not really, but you get the idea.)

I think you are missing the point. You should see a person who is truly an expert on the particular question you have. Chiropractors are not medical doctors, are not trained in medical science and therefor know nothing more about vaccines than a shoe maker or an auto repairman.

Sorry, I thought you were reffering that medical experts in general often make ridiculous claims even though they are certified in their field.
(Not to deny that does happen on a few rare occasions)
A stupid misunderstanding for which I apologize.

BTW, my leg feels better and I didn’t have to see a doctor   smile

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God, the Self-Sufficient.
He does not give birth, nor was He born.
And there is none equal to Him.

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