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Posted: 19 August 2013 10:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
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Any actual facts on any of these yet?  I personally am just too suspicious to take accusations of sexual harassment seriously until real facts come out.  The one I’m particularly leary of is Stollnow (I think it was) saying she was raped twice by Shermer? Twice? If I were a women, and god forbid that happened to me, I would make sure a) I reported everything to the police immediately afterwards, and b) that I would never allow the perp to come within miles of me. If it was at a conference, and I knew the perp was attending, I’d surround myself with friends, never let the guy get anywhere near. 

I could absolutely be wrong and will admit it if the facts prove her out. But something just seems fishy.  Now if this was some high school girl accusing a male teacher, different story. He’s in a position of power and authority. But this evidently wasn’t that.

EDIT: Ok my fault: I mistook an earlier post for something in one of the OP links….bad memory. mid-atlantic commented “...Radford is accused of raping Karen Stollznow on more then one occasion…”

[ Edited: 19 August 2013 02:42 PM by CuthbertJ ]
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Posted: 19 August 2013 10:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
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Stollznow never used the word “rape.” Sexual assault includes groping, I believe. I believe Stollznow’s story because CFI admitted they suspended Radford two weeks for his actions against her, and she has witnesses to the harassment. For the record, Stollznow’s complaint was against Radford, not Shermer. See Joe Anderson’s essay Shame on you Ben.

CFI has a serious problem on its hands, and Ron Lindsay and the board of directors are making it worse.

Edit: You can find an archived copy of Stollznow’s SciAm column here.

[ Edited: 19 August 2013 10:48 AM by DarronS ]
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Posted: 19 August 2013 02:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
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This makes me angry and sad. downer

Take care,

Derek

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Posted: 19 August 2013 03:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
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Read the SciAm article, and ya, that’s definitely sexual harassment (SH). It’s important to realize too that in this case, it almost doesn’t matter what the actions by the perp were. She considered it harassment, asked him to stop, more than once, and he didn’t. He could have been giving her free candy in the morning and saying “sweets for my sweaty” nothing more. If she felt that was sexual harassment, it was.  Of course this guy went way way beyond that. And if the others acting similarly, shame on them, and they should get what’s coming to them.

That said, the thing I don’t like is the seeming double-standard. In her article I don’t recall any mention that SH might be a women harassing a man. Double-standard. 

Thought not discussed in her article, I also don’t see any mention of this in other articles I’ve read, which to me is a perfect case of sexual harassment, namely women who wear provocative clothing. How is a women wearing stiletto heels, low-cut blouse, tight skirt and very red lipstick, flashy jewelry, etc, i.e. what most would consider prostitutes clothes, how is that different from a man showing a sexual picture around? (And I’m not talking about business casual womens attire).  I’ve worked in several professional places where women dress like that and somehow *that’s* not harassment? Double standard.

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Posted: 19 August 2013 03:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
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CuthbertJ - 19 August 2013 03:11 PM

Thought not discussed in her article, I also don’t see any mention of this in other articles I’ve read, which to me is a perfect case of sexual harassment, namely women who wear provocative clothing. How is a women wearing stiletto heels, low-cut blouse, tight skirt and very red lipstick, flashy jewelry, etc, i.e. what most would consider prostitutes clothes, how is that different from a man showing a sexual picture around? (And I’m not talking about business casual womens attire).  I’ve worked in several professional places where women dress like that and somehow *that’s* not harassment? Double standard.

Congratulations CuthbertJ, you managed to hit the trifecta: red herring, misogyny and victim blaming all in one post. What a load of garbage.

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Posted: 19 August 2013 03:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
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CuthbertJ - 19 August 2013 03:11 PM

Thought not discussed in her article, I also don’t see any mention of this in other articles I’ve read, which to me is a perfect case of sexual harassment, namely women who wear provocative clothing. How is a women wearing stiletto heels, low-cut blouse, tight skirt and very red lipstick, flashy jewelry, etc, i.e. what most would consider prostitutes clothes, how is that different from a man showing a sexual picture around? (And I’m not talking about business casual womens attire).  I’ve worked in several professional places where women dress like that and somehow *that’s* not harassment? Double standard.

Wait… Are you saying that you’re being sexually harassed by any woman who is wearing revealing (by your standards) clothing?

Take care,

Derek

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Posted: 19 August 2013 04:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
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The Muslims have a cure for that by god (or Allah), the burqa. That’ll teach em not to tempt us with their glittery jewelry and revealing clothing.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burqa


Cap’t Jack

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Posted: 19 August 2013 04:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
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Good one, TA.

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Posted: 19 August 2013 07:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
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I do not understand the structure of CFI. Nor do I really care that much. To me it is like a ride on the bus. All I need to know is where the bus is headed. I do not need to know how the engine is put together.

From a businessman’s point of view.

RE: Karen Stllznow and Benjamin Radford.

My thoughts.

I opened a bar in Sothern California which is a well known bar by the locals today.

The atmosphere was that of a neighborhood bar. The problem was that I had a couple of patch holder biker clubs wanting to hang out in the bar. These 300 pound bikers with knifes and tattoos had to fit in with the construction workers and bankers. And my goal was to have a place that woman would come to and feel comfortable. I measured my success by how many women came to the bar. To give you an idea, in one year I was pumping the most beer in San Diego County.

What I found was a smart 90 pound blond bar maid could control a dozen big bikers without even trying. 
Just a quick look at Dr. Karen’s history and skills and I would hire her to control a dozen guy’s that would be making passes at her.

Something is not right here. She’s ready for the talk shows.

I don’t give a dam one way or the other. All I can contribute is my past experience.

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Posted: 19 August 2013 10:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
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Occam. - 18 August 2013 12:50 PM

Quoting Darron:

There is no excuse for such behavior, but there also seems no lack of people willing to stand up for misogynists and excuse their actions. This has to stop.

I know that most males who don’t engage in such behavior say they have self-control, however, it’s much easier for them to have self-control when they aren’t in an extemely powerful position. 

I seem to recall a S-F story a few years ago where all males were given a shot at about ten years old that completely shut down testosterone production.  Only when a woman wanted to have sex and/or get pregnant could she file a document with a govt. doctor who would then give a counteracting shot that would last for one day.  Maybe that’s how it will stop.

Occam

Heh-heh. Try getting men to agree to that.

Lois

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Posted: 19 August 2013 10:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]
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DarronS - 17 August 2013 03:00 PM
Lois - 17 August 2013 09:56 AM

Hadn’t heard, but people who are at the forefront of rational thought are always vulnerable to such accusations.  When the opposition (also known as christians) can’t think of a good argument, they turn to sex allegations.

Lois

These aren’t Christians making allegations, they are prominent women in the skeptical community. Instead of dismissing the allegations out of hand I suggest you and Occam read the back story about what has been going on and how CFI has blundered once again. Republicans misdeeds are irrelevant to how men in the skeptical community act toward women. That is not only a red herring it is a tu quoque fallacy.

I must apologize.  I thought you were referring to Rebecca Watson’s experience at a skeptical conference.  I had not heard about Karen D’s experience before. She as a right to be outraged.  What a terrible situation she’s had to endure.

Lois

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Posted: 20 August 2013 07:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]
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I haven’t heard any such nonsense but then again, a great deal of nonsense does come from the Bible thumpers so I wouldn’t be surprised.

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Posted: 20 August 2013 08:02 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]
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deros - 20 August 2013 07:40 AM

I haven’t heard any such nonsense but then again, a great deal of nonsense does come from the Bible thumpers so I wouldn’t be surprised.

deros, I think you posted in the wrong thread.

Edit: Shoulda checked the spelling of deros before hitting submit. Autocorrect got me again. Fixed it.

[ Edited: 20 August 2013 05:00 PM by DarronS ]
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Posted: 20 August 2013 04:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]
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DarronS - 19 August 2013 03:26 PM
CuthbertJ - 19 August 2013 03:11 PM

Thought not discussed in her article, I also don’t see any mention of this in other articles I’ve read, which to me is a perfect case of sexual harassment, namely women who wear provocative clothing. How is a women wearing stiletto heels, low-cut blouse, tight skirt and very red lipstick, flashy jewelry, etc, i.e. what most would consider prostitutes clothes, how is that different from a man showing a sexual picture around? (And I’m not talking about business casual womens attire).  I’ve worked in several professional places where women dress like that and somehow *that’s* not harassment? Double standard.

Congratulations CuthbertJ, you managed to hit the trifecta: red herring, misogyny and victim blaming all in one post. What a load of garbage.

I knew you wouldn’t be able to have an honest discussion of the topic.  You know exactly what I mean, and yet you come up with a “witty” comment that avoids the point.  Being fake self-righteous moves the discussion nowhere.

First, did I miss something in her article where she does in fact refer to sexual harassment as something that can occur to a man? (And whether or not she did has no bearing whatsoever on the fact that she was harassed and that the perp should get what coming to him. Try to make that mental leap please.) If I did miss that part, then my mistake.

2nd, what part of my post you quoted was misogynistic? You mean to tell me you’ve never seen a women dressed extremely inappropriately in a professional workplace? If you say you haven’t, you’re a liar, or you’ve never had a real job. If you say you don’t know what inappropriate is, you’re a liar again.  And regardless, how is saying a professional women is dressing like a prostitute misogynistic? Maybe you hate women and prostitutes so in your mind that’s hate speech.  I don’t have that hang up. I absolutely love women, especially when they dress provocatively…just not at work when I’m supposed to be concentrating on work.  If I were gay, and it was a guy dressing like a gigolo it’d be the same exact thing.  Again, make the mental leap please.

3rd, point out where I blame the victim?  I made it clear I thought she was being harassed.

You know Darron, I wish you’d even out. Sometimes you make some excellent posts and I enjoy reading and learning.  And then like above you post unthinking nonsense. God that’s exasperating.

Oh and the other guy who asked if I thought I was being harassed by every provocatively dressed women. Read my post…I made it clear I’m talking about in the workplace. Outside the workplace anything goes, it’s a womens choice and not mens place to dictate “the norm”. Again, try to make the mental leap with Darron.

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Posted: 20 August 2013 05:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]
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CuthbertJ - 20 August 2013 04:58 PM

First, did I miss something in her article where she does in fact refer to sexual harassment as something that can occur to a man? (And whether or not she did has no bearing whatsoever on the fact that she was harassed and that the perp should get what coming to him. Try to make that mental leap please.) If I did miss that part, then my mistake.

Why should Stollznow be required to mention women can harass men? The subject was a man harassing her. Bringing up the possibility that women can harass men is a red herring in this context.

2nd, what part of my post you quoted was misogynistic? You mean to tell me you’ve never seen a women dressed extremely inappropriately in a professional workplace? If you say you haven’t, you’re a liar, or you’ve never had a real job. If you say you don’t know what inappropriate is, you’re a liar again.  And regardless, how is saying a professional women is dressing like a prostitute misogynistic? Maybe you hate women and prostitutes so in your mind that’s hate speech.  I don’t have that hang up. I absolutely love women, especially when they dress provocatively…just not at work when I’m supposed to be concentrating on work.  If I were gay, and it was a guy dressing like a gigolo it’d be the same exact thing.  Again, make the mental leap please.

The misogynistic part and the victim blaming part are the same. Women can dress as they please at any place I’ve worked as long as they are not breaking any laws regarding exhibitionism. Doesn’t bother me a bit if women want to wear short skirts and/or show some cleavage at work, and it does not keep me from concentrating on my job.

3rd, point out where I blame the victim?  I made it clear I thought she was being harassed.

Maybe I was reaching at the above just so I could use the word “trifecta,” but we have a huge problem in our society with women being blamed when they are victims of harassment, groping and rape. Calling what you think is inappropriate dress in the workplace sexual harassment is ridiculous. Dressing provocatively is not harassment. Coercing someone into sex, threatening to keep her/him from getting a promotion or project unless they have sex with you is harassment. Groping women or men at conventions is assault.

You know Darron, I wish you’d even out. Sometimes you make some excellent posts and I enjoy reading and learning.  And then like above you post unthinking nonsense. God that’s exasperating.

I find it exasperating that someone would say women who do not dress according to his individual standards are engaging in harassment.

Oh and the other guy who asked if I thought I was being harassed by every provocatively dressed women. Read my post…I made it clear I’m talking about in the workplace. Outside the workplace anything goes, it’s a womens choice and not mens place to dictate “the norm”. Again, try to make the mental leap with Darron.

I’m glad to hear that, but I still disagree with you about the workplace issue. There are some workplaces (court of law, for example) where dressing provocatively would be inappropriate, but at the newspapers and high tech companies where I have worked it has never been an issue.

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