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Was Christianity created by the Flavians?
Posted: 02 January 2014 09:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 61 ]
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The text here has been deleted since you repeated it exactly in the second post, only without erroneous quotation symbols.  Occam

[ Edited: 03 January 2014 09:51 AM by Occam. ]
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Posted: 02 January 2014 09:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 62 ]
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My original statement: (Coincidentally, this is also why the definition of marriage should always remain as it has always been - the connection that is like God and the church between one man and one woman.)

As it has “always been”?  The bible and other historical records are replete with examples of polygamy.  Where do you get the idea that marriage between one man and one woman has “always been”?  Your definition of “always” is an odd one.

Lois

——-
My current response:

Yes, Adam and Eve created man and woman, one mate each different gender.—- If you will notice, anytime in the Bible where more than one wife or concubine is added to the marriage, severe negative consequences ensue from polygamy in the Bible. (cf: Abram and Sarai, adding Hagar to the equation = Ishmaelites and their wicked off-spring in the Bible and Barack Obama’s Muslim brotherhood, Jihad, Mosques, Hamas, suicide bombers, and Islamic terrorism for us in the 21st century.)

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Posted: 02 January 2014 10:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 63 ]
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cartoon_sub,
My current response:
Yes, Adam and Eve created man and woman, one mate each different gender.—- If you will notice, anytime in the Bible where more than one wife or concubine is added to the marriage, severe negative consequences ensue from polygamy in the Bible. (cf: Abram and Sarai, adding Hagar to the equation = Ishmaelites and their wicked off-spring in the Bible and Barack Obama’s Muslim brotherhood, Jihad, Mosques, Hamas, suicide bombers, and Islamic terrorism for us in the 21st century.)

If you will notice, anytime the Bible is taken literally, severe negative consequences ensue from zealotry and bigotry. I don’t need to list the atrocities committed in the name of the Biblical God.

And, cartoon_sub, you have now revealed yourself as a spiritual zealot and a racial bigot. You are a bad, bad boy! snapoutofit.gif

I am done with you.

[ Edited: 03 January 2014 03:13 AM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 03 January 2014 03:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 64 ]
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Scott Mayers - 29 August 2013 10:12 AM

In redressing Atwill’s Caesar Messiah: The Roman Conspiracy to Invent Christianity, unlike anyone here so far, I have read his book, not his advertisements to sell the book. While I am skeptical of certain aspects of his theory, his arguments are still quite interesting and have a good logical interpretation to it. Know that a title itself isn’t the content. While many titles directly relate to its content, the function of it is to catch the interest of an audience for further inspection. Even if you don’t accept all his ideas and connections, he shows a very good circumstantial case for serious consideration. But you must invest the time to read what he has to say and how he developed his ideas in order to see how he derived his hypotheses, not to mention what precisely it is.

By reading his work, it helped me to open up to a different understanding of the possibility of the Bible’s formation being related to being written as intentionally being a functional piece of propaganda and form of entertainment meant to be understood in the contexts of the audience of the times. It showed how there were common apparent connections to other sources of the times both in comparative relationships to the Jewish Wars at the time and the order in which they perfectly align to another historical commentator who wrote then, namely, Joseph Flavian. His main idea was to suggest that the Bible was written originally as a satire of the Jewish Wars for an audience of the day that would understand it within its original contexts but got carried away and evolved to become the functional foundation of a new religion.

Even if you still came to disagree with him, it is highly entertaining in its development and shows how we can see other possible ways of recognizing how the work could have evolved within a secular perspective. It’s great book and I highly recommend it.

I have searched high and low, but nowhere do I find a Josephus Flavian. The closest I can come is the name Josephus Flavian Gomes, apparently a modern scholar in economics.
However, I did come up with a Flavius Josephus who lived during the Flavian rule.

The extant manuscripts of the writings of the 1st century Romano-Jewish historian Flavius Josephus include references to Jesus and the origins of Christianity.[1][2] Josephus’ Antiquities of the Jews, written around 93–94 AD, includes two references to Jesus in Books 18 and 20 and a reference to John the Baptist in Book 18.[1][3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus .

and the plot thickens,

Caesar’s Messiah: The Roman Conspiracy to Invent Jesus
 
Interesting documentary/theory about who invented Jesus and Christianity and why. I’m not so sure I buy all of this but there’s a lot of great information here and obviously someone invented Jesus we know in Christianity.

Here’s a sinopsis.

Based on the best-selling religious studies book by Joseph Atwill, this documentary shows that Jesus is not a historical figure, the events of Jesus’ life were based on a Roman military campaign, his supposed second coming refers to an event that already occurred, and the Gospels were written by a family of Caesars who left us documents to prove it. http://www.democraticunderground.com/121877674

But why Roman Emperors would encourage christianity as a benign practice may be interesting but unlikely. Jesus was a rabble rouser and today, if someone went to a bank and created havoc he would be arrested and charged with serious crimes. I doubt that the government later would say that this guy was a peaceful man who just wanted to make a philosopical statement. I would compare that to the US government proposing that David Koresh’s Branch Davidian was a benign practice and should now be encouraged, after we burned his compound and followers to the ground.

However, there is evidence that Roman diplomats often made deals with local leaders, to gain their loyalty. Of course this usually happened after the opposition was completely destroyed and the Romans needed local administrators to deal with.

[ Edited: 03 January 2014 04:22 AM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 03 January 2014 06:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 65 ]
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http://www.patheos.com/blogs/wwjtd/2013/10/joseph-atwill-has-not-proven-that-jesus-was-made-up-by-the-romans/

See the above for the debunking of Atwill’s thesis. The experts, even the mythisists like Carrier point out the obvious flaws in Atwill’s book. It seems that he just made up the idea out of whole cloth without carefully studying the original texts in the original language. In short, it’s bunk.

 

Cap’t Jack

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Posted: 03 January 2014 06:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 66 ]
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Barack Obama’s Muslim brotherhood

question

You are a bigot and an ideologue. These forums will be better off when you tire of trolling us and go elsewhere.

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You cannot have a rational discussion with someone who holds irrational beliefs.

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Posted: 03 January 2014 02:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 67 ]
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My original message:
Yes, Adam and Eve created man and woman, one mate each different gender.—- If you will notice, anytime in the Bible where more than one wife or concubine is added to the marriage, severe negative consequences ensue from polygamy in the Bible. (cf: Abram and Sarai, adding Hagar to the equation = Ishmaelites and their wicked off-spring in the Bible and Barack Obama’s Muslim brotherhood, Jihad, Mosques, Hamas, suicide bombers, and Islamic terrorism for us in the 21st century.)

WRITE4U:
If you will notice, anytime the Bible is taken literally, severe negative consequences ensue from zealotry and bigotry. I don’t need to list the atrocities committed in the name of the Biblical God.

And, cartoon_sub, you have now revealed yourself as a spiritual zealot and a racial bigot. You are a bad, bad boy!

My response:
Every instance where God commanded something in the Bible - no matter what you want to call it, “atrocity” or not, every instance in the Bible where something negative happened, if you go back and read the text, you will find before-hand that whatever negative consequence the person or people received, it was from a direct result of a sin that the person or people committed. For example, Egyptians put Israelites into slavery, so God bloodied Egypt’s nose so bad, they never recovered as a world-power. So, no - you don’t need to list negative consequences of sin found in the Bible - all anyone NEEDS to do to find out the TRUTH is to read the Bible for themselves and draw their own conclusions from reading the ENTIRE book.

Concerning: “zealot” and “bigot”—as Major Payne humorously said: “the’z no need fo’ name callin’.” LOL —- as far as being a “bad, bad boy”: well, thank you! Most girls like the “bad boy” anyway.

But as far as you trying to paint me into a corner as being untruthful or unfair—you failed on that point.—- I am done with you as well, W4U.

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Posted: 03 January 2014 02:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 68 ]
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DarronS said:

You are a bigot and an ideologue. These forums will be better off when you tire of trolling us and go elsewhere.

My response:
White people like you called Malcom X and Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. the same thing—so I am in good company.

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Posted: 03 January 2014 11:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 69 ]
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cartoon_sub - 03 January 2014 02:32 PM

Yes, Adam and Eve created man and woman

In fact, according to Genesis GOD created man and woman. Have you actually read the Bible? You don’t seem to know it very well.

every instance in the Bible where something negative happened, if you go back and read the text, you will find before-hand that whatever negative consequence the person or people received, it was from a direct result of a sin that the person or people committed.

Ah, I guess that Jesus fellow was a very sinful guy, which is why God got the Romans to execute him….

all anyone NEEDS to do to find out the TRUTH is to read the Bible for themselves and draw their own conclusions from reading the ENTIRE book.

Well, I did in fact read the entire book, and how it came to be called the “good book” is a complete mystery to me. It’s a sorry chronicle of lies, insanity, cowardice, duplicity, genocide, savagery and more lies. The Old Testament seems to be nothing more than a (fictional) attempt to justify the Israelites’ invasion of Canaan and the slaughter and enslavement of its people, on the basis that, “Well, yeah, we murdered all those people, all those men and women and boys - you’ll notice we spared the girls, we kept them for ourselves - and stole all their land and property, but it’s okay because God told us to do it, and we’re God’s chosen people.” Right, well, everyone thinks they’re God’s chosen people; in the 16th century it was the Spaniards, in the 19th century the British, today it’s the Americans….

And the New Testament isn’t much better; its message, if you can call it that, is legalistic and political, but scarcely religious. Follow the rules, don’t rock the boat, don’t ask awkward questions, believe what you’re told to believe, obey those whom it has pleased God to place in authority over you no matter how cruel and hypocritical they are, and God will reward you - in Heaven - after you die. Whereas if you ask questions and try to think for yourself, you’ll burn in Hell for all eternity. This sounds right on the same level as those offers you sometimes get in the mail - or, increasingly these days, online - “CONGRATULATIONS!!! YOU have WON a Caribbean cruise for two, a brand new Lincoln Town Car and $250,000 in spending money!!! And all you have to do to claim your prize is to send a cheque for $499, your bank details and your PIN number to Box 666, Deception, Michigan….”

I think I’ll pass on that one.

TFS

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Posted: 04 January 2014 05:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 70 ]
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DarronS said:

You are a bigot and an ideologue. These forums will be better off when you tire of trolling us and go elsewhere.

My response:
White people like you called Malcom X and Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. the same thing—so I am in good company.

Let’s see, Daron is white, and all white people are bigots who hate Black leaders of the Civil Rights movement, therefore, being “in good company”, you just named yourself exactly what Darron labeled you, an ideologue and a bigot. You might be more at home on the Klan or militia sites. They just love burning crosses and talking about Jesus.


Cap’t Jack

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Posted: 01 May 2016 01:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 71 ]
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I know I’m late to the discussion here, but I signed up to say Atwill is entirely correct. Jesus was created after 70AD by the Flavian family of emperors (in conjunction with the Alexander, and Herod families) in order to pacify rebellious messianic Jews.

The ministry of Jesus is a satirical retelling of Titus Flavius’ military campaign to take back Judea. There are over 2 dozen parallel events that happen IN SEQUENCE in both narratives, with characters that share the same names, taking place in the same geographic locations, with the Gospel version always being a satire of what Josephus Flavius recorded in “wars of the Jews”

example: At the start of his ministry, at the sea of Galilee Jesus tells men to follow him and he’ll make them “fishers of men.”

Titus, at the sea of Galilee, after his first military command, orders his men to follow and spear defeated rebel Jews floating in the lake, thus turning his men into literal “fishers of men.”

Another example: A starving mother named Mary, in Jerusalem during the siege, slays her son in the manner of a sacrificial lamb, roasts him, and consumes half of him as her passover meal, a human passover lamb.

Jesus the son of a Mary, in Jerusalem, at passover, orders his followers to eat of his flesh and drink of his blood, a human passover lamb.

Combined these parallels are proof the gospels and “wars” had combined authorship. The comedy proves the gospels were authored after the events described in “wars,” and it also proves Jesus is a fictional character.

Following that, Acts and Paul’s epistles combined with Tacitus’ “annals” provides ANOTHER 25 parallels between the holy spirit and Domitian Flavius.

In addition, the first recorded pope was a Flavian, as are all the first non biblical saints. The oldest Christian cemetery in the world bears the name of a Flavian. Constantine also had the Flavius family name.

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Posted: 01 May 2016 02:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 72 ]
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I reckon that in reality there is no such thing as a Flavian.  Maybe it is the name of a Star Wars, Star Trek or Doctor Who alien.

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Posted: 01 May 2016 11:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 73 ]
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LilySmith - 21 August 2013 08:57 AM
Carl-Sagan - 20 August 2013 10:39 PM

And I’m just wondering if any of this evidence presented is indeed legit ideas accepted by historians or were they completely made up out of thin air?

I’m not a historian, but I am a Christian.  I watched two minutes of the video and saw the same old conspiracy nonsense that I’ve seen before.  George Bush never said God told him to go to war.  He’s a Methodist, not a Dominionist.  You can look up that controversy.  Also, Christians don’t think that war in the ME will bring the End Times.  The truth is that the Hebrew Scripture alludes to a Messiah who will not only restore the nation Israel, but will also reconcile non-Jews to God.  The Christian Scripture teaches that Jesus is that Messiah—the Christ.  The NT is in Greek, because it contains the message to non-Jews.  At one time Christianity could have been used to control the masses before they had bibles and could understand the message for themselves, but not today.

”  George Bush never said God told him to go to war.”

Explain this, then.

George Bush has claimed he was on a mission from God when he launched the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq, according to a senior Palestinian politician in an interview to be broadcast by the BBC later this month.
Mr Bush revealed the extent of his religious fervour when he met a Palestinian delegation during the Israeli-Palestinian summit at the Egpytian resort of Sharm el-Sheikh, four months after the US-led invasion of Iraq in 2003.
One of the delegates, Nabil Shaath, who was Palestinian foreign minister at the time, said: “President Bush said to all of us: ‘I am driven with a mission from God’. God would tell me, ‘George go and fight these terrorists in Afghanistan’. And I did. And then God would tell me ‘George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq’. And I did.”
Mr Bush went on: “And now, again, I feel God’s words coming to me, ‘Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East’. And, by God, I’m gonna do it.”

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/oct/07/iraq.usa

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Posted: 01 May 2016 05:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 74 ]
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jesusatelazarus - 01 May 2016 01:03 AM

I know I’m late to the discussion here, but I signed up to say Atwill is entirely correct. Jesus was created after 70AD by the Flavian family of emperors (in conjunction with the Alexander, and Herod families) in order to pacify rebellious messianic Jews.

I just took 3 minutes out of my life to say that is completely amazing. That someone would go to the trouble of creating an account and making a comment, to people who haven’t posted in years, and say something that can so easily be explained as flagrantly wrong if they had spent the exact amount of effort checking the very fact that they are claiming.

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Posted: 02 May 2016 01:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 75 ]
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What makes you think I’m wrong? Maybe show me some of that evidence? As it stands nothing has ever been found that says Christians existed anywhere in the empire before 70AD. No trinkets, no artwork, no churches, no tombs, no carvings, absolutely nothing at all. Then 25 years later, at the end of the Flavian dynasty we find all of those, in every single province of the empire.

Evidence for Jesus having existed is even harder to find, you have to go to the 90s AD for any mention of his name, and even then it’s by historians directly connected to the Flavians. Josephus Flavius, adopted son of emperor Vespasian Flavius, and brother of emperors Titus and Domitian. The other historian is Tacitus, personal historian of Domitian. Not exactly impartial sources when looking at the possibility the Flavians created Jesus.

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