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how do we keep the good things religions provide?
Posted: 03 September 2013 05:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon - 03 September 2013 04:28 PM

Neither do I but the psychological and social-psychological literature clearly demonstrates that these things are best and most enduringly achieved in community.

Point well taken, but I still don’t need a religion for that.

Nor do I—or anyone else for that matter.  I have been able to build community without a church or religion.  There are countless opportunities to do it.  Humanist organizations are a large part of it, as are civic activities. There is no shortage of community-building opportunities, especially in established cities. In the Los Angeles area, CFI West is a great community-building facility, as are libraries, such as the Santa Monica library. Meet-ups are another opportunity.  I haven’t missed the community of church, though UU churches are another great resource.

Lois

[ Edited: 03 September 2013 09:47 PM by Lois ]
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Posted: 03 September 2013 05:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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We’re talking past each other. I view religion in its broader dimensions, as whatever brings life’s concerns together into a coherent whole as best we can. I don’t assume that religion is theistic.

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I cannot in good conscience support CFI under the current leadership. I am here in dissent and in support of a Humanism that honors and respects everyone.

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Posted: 03 September 2013 05:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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PLaClair - 03 September 2013 05:20 PM

We’re talking past each other. I view religion in its broader dimensions, as whatever brings life’s concerns together into a coherent whole as best we can. I don’t assume that religion is theistic.

And what brings life’s concerns into a coherent whole.  A coherent Book of secular values, just like the bible is a coherent (?) book on the same values, except for the addition of the Word “God” instead of the Word “Secular”.

The problem is that people do not like to lose that which they have relied on for so long, without replacing it with something they can refer to in everyday life

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Posted: 03 September 2013 05:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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I view religion in its broader dimensions…

So do I. I just don’t see the need for it. No matter how you spin it, there’s not one thing it does which can’t be accomplished without it.

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Posted: 03 September 2013 05:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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I don’t see how one can live without religion, in the sense that I’ve defined it. Everyone needs a sense of orientation, which is what religion provides. My guess, EOC, is that we’re talking past each other.

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I cannot in good conscience support CFI under the current leadership. I am here in dissent and in support of a Humanism that honors and respects everyone.

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Posted: 03 September 2013 05:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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Write4U - 03 September 2013 05:31 PM
PLaClair - 03 September 2013 05:20 PM

We’re talking past each other. I view religion in its broader dimensions, as whatever brings life’s concerns together into a coherent whole as best we can. I don’t assume that religion is theistic.

And what brings life’s concerns into a coherent whole.  A coherent Book of secular values, just like the bible is a coherent (?) book on the same values, except for the addition of the Word “God” instead of the Word “Secular”.

The problem is that people do not like to lose that which they have relied on for so long, without replacing it with something they can refer to in everyday life

Not just a book. It has to be lived.

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I cannot in good conscience support CFI under the current leadership. I am here in dissent and in support of a Humanism that honors and respects everyone.

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Posted: 03 September 2013 06:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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I don’t see how one can live without religion, in the sense that I’ve defined it. Everyone needs a sense of orientation, which is what religion provides.

So do any number of secular organizations. I don’t think we’re talking past each other so much as you’re assuming that for some social functions that religion is the only game in town.

The fact is, it’s not. Lois cited a number of examples in her earlier post.

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Posted: 03 September 2013 06:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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PLaClair - 03 September 2013 05:49 PM
Write4U - 03 September 2013 05:31 PM
PLaClair - 03 September 2013 05:20 PM

We’re talking past each other. I view religion in its broader dimensions, as whatever brings life’s concerns together into a coherent whole as best we can. I don’t assume that religion is theistic.

And what brings life’s concerns into a coherent whole.  A coherent Book of secular values, just like the bible is a coherent (?) book on the same values, except for the addition of the Word “God” instead of the Word “Secular”.

The problem is that people do not like to lose that which they have relied on for so long, without replacing it with something they can refer to in everyday life

Not just a book. It has to be lived.

Sorry PC but that is a straw man.  The bible IS just a book and we have historical evidence how it has been “lived”.

The Bill of Rights (edit) is a secular document and yet it is the foundation of our society and a source of great pride. Would the BOR (edited) suffer by removing the phrase “endowed by our creator” and replace it with “endowed by our common humanity” (or something like that)? 

IMO, we can live humanely by recognizing the humanity of all humans and the responsibility we each have to honor that moral tenet.

But we need a single book that teaches what humanity is and the responsibilities it brings, rather than a library of books by great philosophers. Consistency in teaching is the key and religions are expert at that.

[ Edited: 03 September 2013 07:55 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 03 September 2013 06:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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To me, that just confirms that we are talking past each other. All those things you and Lois mentioned are part of my religion.

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I cannot in good conscience support CFI under the current leadership. I am here in dissent and in support of a Humanism that honors and respects everyone.

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Posted: 03 September 2013 06:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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Write4U - 03 September 2013 06:38 PM
PLaClair - 03 September 2013 05:49 PM
Write4U - 03 September 2013 05:31 PM
PLaClair - 03 September 2013 05:20 PM

We’re talking past each other. I view religion in its broader dimensions, as whatever brings life’s concerns together into a coherent whole as best we can. I don’t assume that religion is theistic.

And what brings life’s concerns into a coherent whole.  A coherent Book of secular values, just like the bible is a coherent (?) book on the same values, except for the addition of the Word “God” instead of the Word “Secular”.

The problem is that people do not like to lose that which they have relied on for so long, without replacing it with something they can refer to in everyday life

Not just a book. It has to be lived.

Sorry PC but that is a straw man.  The bible IS just a book and we have historical evidence how it has been “lived”.

The Constitution is a secular document and yet it is the foundation of our society and a source of great pride. Would the Constitution suffer by removing the phrase “endowed by our maker” and replace it with “endowed by our common humanity” (or something like that)?

IMO, we can live humanely by recognizing the humanity of all humans and the responsibility we each have to honor that moral tenet.

But we need a single book that teaches what humanity is and the responsibilities it brings, rather than a library of books by great philosophers. Consistency in teaching is the key and religions are expert at that.

The phrase is “endowed by their creator,” and it’s in the Declaration of Independence, not the Constitution. I agree with you that the Declaration would have been a better document without it.

I also agree with you (if I understand you correctly) that we would do well to systematize Humanism but I don’t understand your point about trying to put it all into one book. We could collect all the great writings, I suppose, or try. But what would it matter whether the entire collection was considered one thing or not?

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I cannot in good conscience support CFI under the current leadership. I am here in dissent and in support of a Humanism that honors and respects everyone.

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Posted: 03 September 2013 07:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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PLaClair - 03 September 2013 06:43 PM
Write4U - 03 September 2013 06:38 PM
PLaClair - 03 September 2013 05:49 PM
Write4U - 03 September 2013 05:31 PM
PLaClair - 03 September 2013 05:20 PM

We’re talking past each other. I view religion in its broader dimensions, as whatever brings life’s concerns together into a coherent whole as best we can. I don’t assume that religion is theistic.

And what brings life’s concerns into a coherent whole?  A coherent Book of secular values, just like the bible is a coherent (?) book on the same values, except for the addition of the Word “God” instead of the Word “Secular”.

The problem is that people do not like to lose that which they have relied on for so long, without replacing it with something they can refer to in everyday life

Not just a book. It has to be lived.

Sorry PC but that is a straw man.  The bible IS just a book and we have historical evidence how it has been “lived”.

The Constitution is a secular document and yet it is the foundation of our society and a source of great pride. Would the Constitution suffer by removing the phrase “endowed by our maker” and replace it with “endowed by our common humanity” (or something like that)?

IMO, we can live humanely by recognizing the humanity of all humans and the responsibility we each have to honor that moral tenet.

But we need a single book that teaches what humanity is and the responsibilities it brings, rather than a library of books by great philosophers. Consistency in teaching is the key and religions are expert at that.

The phrase is “endowed by their creator,” and it’s in the Declaration of Independence, not the Constitution. I agree with you that the Declaration would have been a better document without it.

I also agree with you (if I understand you correctly) that we would do well to systematize Humanism but I don’t understand your point about trying to put it all into one book. We could collect all the great writings, I suppose, or try. But what would it matter whether the entire collection was considered one thing or not?

Sorry about my misquote in haste (now corrected), but I am glad you responded to the thrust of the argument.

Oh yes, IMO, it makes an enormous difference. Consistency in the biblical messages is the major advantage religions have over secular messages and teachings if they are widely dispersed among many volumes of great thinkers. Let’s not forget that the bible itself is a compendium of many documents by many writers (prophets or disciples) into a single book (well 2 books, OT and NT).
Today, when confronted with uncertainty most theists find comfort by “consulting” their bible. I would rather have them consult a book that can be applied worldwide and is not specific to any belief in a deity.

But imagine a secular convention on the topic of what it is to be a human where supporting documents must be produced in support of a specific argument.  What single book would you bring to find references to a host of great philosophical questions about humanity?

There is none. And that is the point. Every Sunday a church is filled with people who are required only to bring a single reference book, the bible, from which they can follow the presentation. What is the first thing a preacher (pastor) asks of his congregation.
“please open your bible to Jeremiah, chapter 42, verse 3”. And all people present will be on the “same page” and read the same thing.

An single accredited book has much more power than 15 presentations by experts in human philosophy who cite passages from 15 different books on human philosophical questions. Do you bring a suitcase full of books, so that you can literally follow the writings and understand the logical discussion that may follow a single (but important) statement from a book.

We know that humans have very poor retention when subjected to a range of topics. It would be a handy reference to the average person. A “handbook” of secular human values that can be carried easily and used for consultation anytime a pertinent question arises.

And last but not least, a secular book of values can be taught in schools as it would not be subject to the ‘separation clause”

[ Edited: 03 September 2013 07:57 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 03 September 2013 08:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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I think you mean the Establishment Clause but again I get your point. I’ve tried to systematize Humanism. Check out my website at http://www.thisisourstory.net. It’s very much a work in progress and not ready for primetime but the basic idea is there.

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I cannot in good conscience support CFI under the current leadership. I am here in dissent and in support of a Humanism that honors and respects everyone.

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Posted: 03 September 2013 09:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
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PLaClair - 03 September 2013 05:20 PM

We’re talking past each other. I view religion in its broader dimensions, as whatever brings life’s concerns together into a coherent whole as best we can. I don’t assume that religion is theistic.

It isn’t, but the vast majority of people define it that way. I find it easier to accept that it has become a theistic word. It makes life easier. When I use it I mean theistic religion.

Lois

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Posted: 03 September 2013 09:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
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PLaClair - 03 September 2013 06:43 PM
Write4U - 03 September 2013 06:38 PM
PLaClair - 03 September 2013 05:49 PM
Write4U - 03 September 2013 05:31 PM
PLaClair - 03 September 2013 05:20 PM

We’re talking past each other. I view religion in its broader dimensions, as whatever brings life’s concerns together into a coherent whole as best we can. I don’t assume that religion is theistic.

And what brings life’s concerns into a coherent whole.  A coherent Book of secular values, just like the bible is a coherent (?) book on the same values, except for the addition of the Word “God” instead of the Word “Secular”.

The problem is that people do not like to lose that which they have relied on for so long, without replacing it with something they can refer to in everyday life

Not just a book. It has to be lived.

Sorry PC but that is a straw man.  The bible IS just a book and we have historical evidence how it has been “lived”.

The Constitution is a secular document and yet it is the foundation of our society and a source of great pride. Would the Constitution suffer by removing the phrase “endowed by our maker” and replace it with “endowed by our common humanity” (or something like that)?

IMO, we can live humanely by recognizing the humanity of all humans and the responsibility we each have to honor that moral tenet.

But we need a single book that teaches what humanity is and the responsibilities it brings, rather than a library of books by great philosophers. Consistency in teaching is the key and religions are expert at that.

The phrase is “endowed by their creator,” and it’s in the Declaration of Independence, not the Constitution. I agree with you that the Declaration would have been a better document without it.

I also agree with you (if I understand you correctly) that we would do well to systematize Humanism but I don’t understand your point about trying to put it all into one book. We could collect all the great writings, I suppose, or try. But what would it matter whether the entire collection was considered one thing or not?

A book would become absolutist, like the bible.  We don’t need an absolutist screed. 

Lois

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Posted: 03 September 2013 10:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
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PLaClair - 03 September 2013 08:53 PM

I think you mean the Establishment Clause but again I get your point. I’ve tried to systematize Humanism. Check out my website at http://www.thisisourstory.net. It’s very much a work in progress and not ready for primetime but the basic idea is there.

red face ...I always have to look up what belongs where between the Constitution (and it’s Amendments) and Bill of Rights.

In my Dutch mind, I see those brilliant philosophies as testaments combined into a single governing document (The Constitution), somewhat like the OT and NT in the Bible.
In fact, with minor modifications of theistic expressions, those documents would command a prominent place in a book of secular values.

Your website looks very promising, the Home page sets an immediate atmosphere of tranquility and introspection, and the Topics invite serious thought. It has the potential of becoming an important book.
(added it to favs)

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