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OUR TWO WORLDS, SPIRITUAL AND MATERIAL
Posted: 21 September 2013 04:13 PM   [ Ignore ]
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OUR TWO WORLDS, SPIRITUAL AND MATERIAL


Sections 2 and 3 have been added to “Futile Confrontations” at:

http://pages.csam.montclair.edu/~kow…o/atheist.html

Comments will be appreciated, Thank you in advance,

Ludwik
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Ludwik Kowalski (see Wikipedia), a retired nuclear physicist from New Jersey, USA. A am also the author of a FREE ONLINE book: “Diary of a Former Communist: Thoughts, Feelings, Reality.”

http://csam.montclair.edu/~kowalski/life/intro.html

It is an autobiography based on a diary kept between 1946 and 2004 (in the USSR, Poland, France and the USA).

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Posted: 22 September 2013 10:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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Sorry, I don’t plan to waste my time since I have never seen any evidence of a “spiritual world”.  I see plenty of evidence for our four dimensional (including time) universe, and recognize that multidimensionality is a good possibility everything I’ve seen related to spirituality is fairytale without substance.

Occam

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Posted: 22 September 2013 12:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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Occam. - 22 September 2013 10:15 AM

Sorry, I don’t plan to waste my time since I have never seen any evidence of a “spiritual world”.  I see plenty of evidence for our four dimensional (including time) universe, and recognize that multidimensionality is a good possibility everything I’ve seen related to spirituality is fairytale without substance.

Occam

The term spirituality applies (in my usage) to what motivated terrorists responsible for the 9/11 attack on the Trade Center in NY. They believed that they were serving God; they preyed for the maximum number of victims.

Ludwik
. http://csam.montclair.edu/~kowalski/life/intro.html

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Ludwik Kowalski (see Wikipedia), a retired nuclear physicist from New Jersey, USA. A am also the author of a FREE ONLINE book: “Diary of a Former Communist: Thoughts, Feelings, Reality.”

http://csam.montclair.edu/~kowalski/life/intro.html

It is an autobiography based on a diary kept between 1946 and 2004 (in the USSR, Poland, France and the USA).

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Posted: 22 September 2013 01:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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Ludwik Kowalski - 22 September 2013 12:53 PM
Occam. - 22 September 2013 10:15 AM

Sorry, I don’t plan to waste my time since I have never seen any evidence of a “spiritual world”.  I see plenty of evidence for our four dimensional (including time) universe, and recognize that multidimensionality is a good possibility everything I’ve seen related to spirituality is fairytale without substance.

Occam

The term spirituality applies (in my usage) to what motivated terrorists responsible for the 9/11 attack on the Trade Center in NY. They believed that they were serving God; they preyed for the maximum number of victims.

Ludwik
. http://csam.montclair.edu/~kowalski/life/intro.html

That’s the best definition of spirituality I’ve ever heard.


I teceived an error message when I clicked on your link.

Lois

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Posted: 22 September 2013 06:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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Sorry, but when you decide to define a word differently from the common usage, you severely degrade the meaningfullness and intellegiblity of your writing.  Two possible words that come to mind and fit your description are “emotional” and “irrational”.  I’d guess that if you checked a thesaurus, you could come up with at least a half dozen words the match your meaning without introducing the metaphysical bias of “spiritual”.

Occam

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Posted: 22 September 2013 06:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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Occam. - 22 September 2013 06:10 PM

Sorry, but when you decide to define a word differently from the common usage, you severely degrade the meaningfullness and intellegiblity of your writing.  Two possible words that come to mind and fit your description are “emotional” and “irrational”.  I’d guess that if you checked a thesaurus, you could come up with at least a half dozen words the match your meaning without introducing the metaphysical bias of “spiritual”.

Occam

I did not try to define the term “spirituality.” I only gave an example. Spirituality often motivates people to do good things. Spiritual world consists of non-material entities, such as Gods and angels. My introduction to this world was unusual. I am still learning and trying to be consistent. That is why the NOMA approach is attractive to me. What else can also help us to reduce the intensity of dangerous conflicts between believers and non believers? 

Ludwik
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Ludwik Kowalski (see Wikipedia), a retired nuclear physicist from New Jersey, USA. A am also the author of a FREE ONLINE book: “Diary of a Former Communist: Thoughts, Feelings, Reality.”

http://csam.montclair.edu/~kowalski/life/intro.html

It is an autobiography based on a diary kept between 1946 and 2004 (in the USSR, Poland, France and the USA).

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Posted: 22 September 2013 06:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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Sorry, but one of the better ways of defining a word or concept is to “give an example”.  Even if you didn’t mean to do so, your example is essentially a definition.

Occam

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Posted: 22 September 2013 11:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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Ludwik Kowalski - 22 September 2013 12:53 PM

The term spirituality applies (in my usage) to what motivated terrorists responsible for the 9/11 attack on the Trade Center in NY. They believed that they were serving God; they preyed for the maximum number of victims.

Another war of the words. But I never saw spirituality defined as ‘serving God’ and that it could serve as motivation to kill thousands of people. It also does not fit with many atheists and materialists calling themselves spiritual. Spirituality stands for the striving for the realisation that we are all part of this one universe. Hardly a motivation for killing innocents.

Ludwik Kowalski - 22 September 2013 06:26 PM

Spiritual world consists of non-material entities, such as Gods and angels.

Spirituality has nothing to do with spirits, gods or whatever. It is an attitude towards the universe as you belief it factually is, be it a theistic, deistic or materialist world view.

That also means there are no ‘two worlds’ in a true spiritual view. There is just the one we live in, and therefore have to live with.

And yes, your link is wrong. It should be:

http://pages.csam.montclair.edu/~kowalski/theo/atheist.html

[ Edited: 22 September 2013 11:50 PM by GdB ]
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Posted: 23 September 2013 04:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
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I agree with GdB. That is not a commonly held understanding of spirituality, in fact it’s quite the opposite of spirituality. And it certainly isn’t a good definition just because it leads to a horrific outcome, as Lois would have it, displaying her irrational approach to language yet again.

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Posted: 23 September 2013 06:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
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Whether anyone accepts the example of spirituality or not, it IS exactly the phenomenon that drove the WTC bombers to attack. They were doing it for their god.

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Posted: 23 September 2013 07:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
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Lois - 23 September 2013 06:56 AM

Whether anyone accepts the example of spirituality or not, it IS exactly the phenomenon that drove the WTC bombers to attack. They were doing it for their god.

That is not so sure. See the What drives suicidal mass killers? thread.

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Posted: 23 September 2013 08:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
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GdB - 23 September 2013 07:20 AM
Lois - 23 September 2013 06:56 AM

Whether anyone accepts the example of spirituality or not, it IS exactly the phenomenon that drove the WTC bombers to attack. They were doing it for their god.

That is not so sure. See the What drives suicidal mass killers? thread.

Well, you can always find a way to take belief out of the equation if you try hard enough. But ask the families of the people who died in the WTC if they think the bombers were poor hapless victims of their religion.  However you look at it, they were driven by belief, just as most suicide bombers and mass murderers are. Even the people who kill abortion doctors in cold blood could be seen as poor hapless victims of their belief systems. How about segregationists who burned down churches full of people and engaged in lynching? We are left with the same question.  How do we as a society respond to such actions? Do we leave religion out of it and pretend it isn’t a motivating factor just because it makes some people uncomfortable to think of belief (or spirituality or whatever you want to call it) in that way? Do we give everyone who is motivated by religion to engage in inhuman acts a free pass by pretending that it can’t be belief that’s behind it.  Or do we stop pussyfooting around for fear someone’s feelings might get hurt and focus on what it is about belief that drives people to do such things?

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Posted: 23 September 2013 09:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
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Lois, I reacted here, because I think it fits better in that topic.

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GdB

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Posted: 23 September 2013 12:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
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Spirituality is pretty much universally seen as a form of harmony, often called connectedness. The WTC bombers do not meet that criterion, to say the least. Very few people would think of or characterize their actions as spiritual.

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Posted: 24 September 2013 08:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
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I agree that few would characterize Moslem terrorist actions as spiritual, but I think many would accept the idea of them being spiritually driven.  The problem isn’t with the definition; rather that most people are religious (theistic if that suits you better) and automatically accept spiritual as positive so don’t connect it with a negative action.  I believe most Christians would admit (grudgingly) that the Spanish Inquisition was based on spiritual beliefs but not “a form of harmony”.

Occam

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Posted: 24 September 2013 10:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]
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Occam. - 24 September 2013 08:39 AM

I agree that few would characterize Moslem terrorist actions as spiritual, but I think many would accept the idea of them being spiritually driven.  The problem isn’t with the definition; rather that most people are religious (theistic if that suits you better) and automatically accept spiritual as positive so don’t connect it with a negative action.  I believe most Christians would admit (grudgingly) that the Spanish Inquisition was based on spiritual beliefs but not “a form of harmony”.

Occam

The evidence is sparse either for or against those propositions. I Googled “Muslim” and “Inquisition,” in separate searches, along with spirituality and found very little. The links I did find don’t appear to support any clear conclusion.

http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/sina50413.htm (8th paragraph to the end)
http://www.internationalwallofprayer.org/A-052-Why-Islamic-Terrorists-Do-What-They-Do-Dr-Mark-Gabriel.html
http://theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/tam/categories/C167 (someone named Sheila Musaji has some interestingly titled pieces - she seems most attuned to an idea of spirituality: see, for example, http://theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/religious_terrorism and http://theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/a_spiritual_jihad_against_terrorism_part_i )
http://www.mtc.org/inquis.html (Here’s a fellow who uses the word “spiritual” in a way some secularists love to hate.)
On the opposite side of the coin, see http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/ellerbe0.htm .
Here’s another take on it. Superficially, some of us might agree with this implied definition of spirituality but then look at the source. http://www.cuttingedge.org/News/n1676.cfm

What I don’t understand, Occam, is your final sentence, in the context of your post. Given the nature of this subject matter and the observations in your first two sentences, why would anyone be in a position of having to “admit” that “spiritual beliefs” must be seen (if only grudgingly) to include beliefs that would lead to an Inquisition? I think Musaji’s articles state the better view: that such beliefs are opposed to spirituality.

In the end, I ask the same question I asked you on another topic: So what? What does this all mean for us, and in particular about how we go forward individually and together?

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