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Should hate speech be protected as free speech?
Posted: 03 November 2013 01:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 61 ]
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Occam. - 03 November 2013 01:12 PM

Quoting Volcanoman:

In my mind there is a clear reason why prayer in school is not free speech—because it is forced on those who participate in the classroom.

Would this reason also apply to the required pledge of allegiance and to required oral exercises in class?

Occam

Wow you are just too smart for me.  I have been skewered by an impossibly brilliant argument.  Look, you have already outed yourself as an AH so it is hard to take you seriously.  But to answer your question, yes, I think the pledge of allegiance is an indoctrination program.  Oral exercises in class - really do you even know what you are talking about.

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Posted: 03 November 2013 03:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 62 ]
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I’m sorry if my question upset you so much that you had to resort to a personal attack.  You may find that responding with rational arguments without insults and invective will be more successful in discussions.  I’m not certain why you have such a severe anger problem, but you might find your life and relationships improve if you work on it.

Occam

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Posted: 03 November 2013 04:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 63 ]
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volcanoman - 03 November 2013 01:40 PM

I feel particularly fortunate that you took the time to scan my first paragraph.

Well that makes one of us.

Just because it is in a court of law does not mean it will win.

Do you remember me writing that it probably won’t win just a few posts back?

But who cares.  Arguing that a bunch of AHs argue something to be free speech does not mean they are correct nor does it support your position that you have the moral audacity to determine what is and is not free speech.

No my point is perfectly made out. A group of people are taking their idea about what constitutes freedom of speech to the Supreme Court.
The people and the courts determine what is free speech.  The fact that it is going to court proves my point empirically.
And when the day comes that we finally win…Presto!  A form of “speech” suppressed!

It’s that easy. And down the road…suppressing hatred won’t be that hard either.
The only people who will miss hate speech are haters.

Don’t forget, we’re halfway there.
The court has already made rulings on some of the things that define hate.

[ Edited: 03 November 2013 04:17 PM by VYAZMA ]
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Posted: 04 November 2013 12:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 64 ]
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George - 08 October 2013 06:06 AM

Maybe if we didn’t have the (what is the opposite of a fascist?) “equality enthusiasts” spreading their point of view, we wouldn’t have to worry about the fascists spreading theirs.

The opposite of fascist is liberal.

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Posted: 04 November 2013 01:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 65 ]
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VYAZMA - 02 November 2013 08:57 AM
mid atlantic - 02 November 2013 04:01 AM

We accept a lot of things on principle alone, constitutionally. The countries that restrict speech are dull and lifeless.

Yeah. We have free speech. Whatever that means?
We also have the highest percentage of people in prison or jail in the world.
We have a Defense Budget that is larger than the next 15 or so largest Defense Budgets combined.  One Half of our Treasury.(Tax Dollars) Every Year. 
And we have 10% of the population controlling over 80% of the nations wealth.

Ok, the 3 things listed above are indications of a system that isn’t exactly the most Free.
I myself am always wary of slackjawed myrmidons who banter the loudest about freedom whilst the rug is being pulled out
from under them.

Well, I guess I’m not offended, I’ve been called worse.

Free speech means this http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Freedom+of+Speech.

I don’t know what the three things you listed have to do with free speech. Not that they are not big problems, obviously.

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Posted: 04 November 2013 01:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 66 ]
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VYAZMA - 02 November 2013 09:12 AM

As far as the 1st amendment goes, I see people being carted off and arrested all the time for Peaceful assembly.

It’s all just a matter of degrees. Interpretations.

Yes, I’ve see this before too. However, overly aggressive law enforcement is not an indication that all has failed.

Being arrested is not the same as being convicted of a crime.

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Posted: 04 November 2013 01:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 67 ]
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VYAZMA - 02 November 2013 01:44 PM
mid atlantic - 02 November 2013 04:14 AM

First, hate is impossible to categorize. That means anything can be “hate”.
Then, if we make “hate” unlawful and punishable, the entire society will be in a permanent state of litigation.

No it’s not.  It’s not difficult.  Like I said there are plenty of laws on the books which define hate.
And they stand up in courts.  So by actual practice, hate can be defined.

You’re getting all hyperbolic. That means anything can be “hate”
That right there…that’s hyperbole.

A monkey or a small child can be reasonably trained to determine between hate and reason.
Let alone a group of distinguished lawmakers and scholars. It’s not rocket science.

Truth in advertising laws get bent up all the time.  That’s limitations on speech.
And those rules get bent constantly.
Awhile ago Listerine had to make good on a false claim that rinsing with their mouthwash was as good as flossing.
It’s all just a simple matter of how much BS society is willing to let float around in the air.

And we need less BS floating around in my opinion

What laws?

This is the only one that applies to hate speech. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clear_and_present_danger

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Posted: 04 November 2013 02:00 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 68 ]
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volcanoman - 03 November 2013 01:44 PM
Occam. - 03 November 2013 01:12 PM

Quoting Volcanoman:

In my mind there is a clear reason why prayer in school is not free speech—because it is forced on those who participate in the classroom.

Would this reason also apply to the required pledge of allegiance and to required oral exercises in class?

Occam

Wow you are just too smart for me.  I have been skewered by an impossibly brilliant argument.  Look, you have already outed yourself as an AH so it is hard to take you seriously.  But to answer your question, yes, I think the pledge of allegiance is an indoctrination program.  Oral exercises in class - really do you even know what you are talking about.

I’ll jump in here, because I was in school more recently then many members of this forum, but the pledge of allegiance was almost completely ignored by students and teachers in my experience. There is no forceful recital of it in public schools, that I know of.

And the only oral exercises in modern high school are the sexual type. cool smile

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Posted: 04 November 2013 05:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 69 ]
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volcanoman - 03 November 2013 01:44 PM

  Look, you have already outed yourself as an AH so it is hard to take you seriously.

Volcanoman, what is an “AH”? I haven’t heard that term.

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Posted: 04 November 2013 05:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 70 ]
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mid atlantic - 04 November 2013 05:06 AM
volcanoman - 03 November 2013 01:44 PM

  Look, you have already outed yourself as an AH so it is hard to take you seriously.

Volcanoman, what is an “AH”? I haven’t heard that term.

It’s where the lava comes out when the volcano erupts.  grin

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Posted: 04 November 2013 01:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 71 ]
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mid atlantic - 04 November 2013 01:29 AM

I don’t know what the three things you listed have to do with free speech. Not that they are not big problems, obviously.

Yes those are actually some real big problems.

Are you getting the full value of your Free Speech Dollar?

Oh but you can sleep good at night knowing you’re free to yell “Fag” across the street at someone.
Or go print and publish some Neo-Nazi publication!
You’re Free Mid Atlantic…  You’re Free!

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Posted: 04 November 2013 01:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 72 ]
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mid atlantic - 04 November 2013 01:52 AM

What laws?

This is the only one that applies to hate speech.

Hate Crime laws.  Keep up!
I said there are plenty of laws on the books that already define some forms of hate.

As in: progress is being made in that direction to begin delineating what constitutes hate and what constitutes say….passion, or emotion
or expression.  In a legal sense.

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Posted: 04 November 2013 01:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 73 ]
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mid atlantic - 04 November 2013 01:38 AM
VYAZMA - 02 November 2013 09:12 AM

As far as the 1st amendment goes, I see people being carted off and arrested all the time for Peaceful assembly.

It’s all just a matter of degrees. Interpretations.

Yes, I’ve see this before too. However, overly aggressive law enforcement is not an indication that all has failed.

Being arrested is not the same as being convicted of a crime.

Great, then certainly when people petition the legislation and the courts to define what free speech means
it is an indication that things haven’t failed, but an indication that the system is working properly.

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Posted: 04 November 2013 02:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 74 ]
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mid atlantic - 02 November 2013 04:05 AM

I don’t know if we can make modifications to this. But Yeah, I do think many people would be in favor bringing free speech, or as you consider it- “hate speech” back. If it was taken away.

No I don’t consider all speech to be Hate Speech.  Don’t twist my words around.

And you’re wrong. Nobody is going to march in the streets to bring back the Westboro Baptist Church or the American Nazi Party’s
right to march and carry placards etc…or any other hate or vitriolic speech.
People in Canada or Germany aren’t protesting and trying to get hate speech or inflammatory speech “free” again.
Not in any meaningful numbers.
Both of those nations like many others perceive “free speech” differently than we do.  And they’re doing just fine.

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Posted: 06 November 2013 04:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 75 ]
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VYAZMA - 04 November 2013 01:34 PM
mid atlantic - 04 November 2013 01:29 AM

I don’t know what the three things you listed have to do with free speech. Not that they are not big problems, obviously.

Yes those are actually some real big problems.

Are you getting the full value of your Free Speech Dollar?

Oh but you can sleep good at night knowing you’re free to yell “Fag” across the street at someone.
Or go print and publish some Neo-Nazi publication!
You’re Free Mid Atlantic…  You’re Free!

Damn right.

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