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Posted: 08 October 2013 02:45 PM   [ Ignore ]
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I had an interesting happening today. I spoke with a friend who is not a church-goer, not very fond of organized religion as far as I know, but she does believe in God and Jesus. To her God is love.

We spoke about something unrelated but I ended up mentioning the story of Abraham being told to sacrifice his son. For some reason she had never heard that story and thought I was joking. In her mind God would never have ordered such a thing and that this couldn’t be true what I was saying.

We spoke again a bit later and she said that the Bible must be wrong on that. If God said something like that he seemed like an egomaniac with a strange need to be “praised” by playing with people in such a way.

Honestly, this was the most powerful thing she said as I know she believes in God, and this was really a unique encounter. Rather than rationalizing things as is done by those who know the story she discarded it. Makes me wonder then where people get their theology. Apparently not from the Bible.

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Posted: 09 October 2013 08:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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I am living proof that you should not read the Bible if want to remain a believer. Surprising that she didn’t know about such a well known study, she should listen to more Bob Dylan. I wonder what she has to say about the Noah story.

When I was still doing apologetics, I interpreted that story as a myth used to get people to stop sacrificing children. Although very little of that is in the Bible, it was done at the time. This story says, God is still in charge, you still must obey Him, but he’s not going to ask you to do that anymore. What’s sad is people try to bring an interpretation of this story into modern times. It has none, IMO.

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Posted: 15 October 2013 08:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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I got taught that story in grade school.  I was taught that it’s a lesson about putting God above everything else in your life.  Even your own loved ones.  I was also taught Young Earth creationism and Biblical literalism.  Yay me.

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Posted: 15 October 2013 10:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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I heard that story when i was very young girl.  It frightened me.  I did not want to get married and have children because I was afraid God would want me to do same and I would refuse to do it.

Also my youngest child was not taken to a church to worship and religion not a topic in home, but she displayed a knowledge of knowing about God.  Children know things.

Oh, you see, I did get married.  But i would refuse to do what Abraham did.

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Posted: 15 October 2013 11:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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Penn Gillette uses this as the atheist test. He challenges you to ask yourself, if God asked you to kill your child, would you do it? If not, you’re an atheist. I still think the challenge has many flaws, but at the time, as a believer, it was shocking and caused me to consider that label for the first time.

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Posted: 15 October 2013 05:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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BarbaraZ - 15 October 2013 10:56 AM

Also my youngest child was not taken to a church to worship and religion not a topic in home, but she displayed a knowledge of knowing about God.  Children know things.

  It’s amazing how well tiny children listen and pick up information.  My parent’s didn’t talk about Santa Claus or god, but I recall that I knew about both of them from listening to neighborhood children and people, radio programs, relatives, etc. even when they weren’t talking to me or even realizing that I was listening.  I had already decided they were fairytales, but I still knew all about the stories of them.

Occam

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Posted: 15 October 2013 08:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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Lausten - 09 October 2013 08:49 AM

I am living proof that you should not read the Bible if want to remain a believer. Surprising that she didn’t know about such a well known study, she should listen to more Bob Dylan. I wonder what she has to say about the Noah story.

When I was still doing apologetics, I interpreted that story as a myth used to get people to stop sacrificing children. Although very little of that is in the Bible, it was done at the time. This story says, God is still in charge, you still must obey Him, but he’s not going to ask you to do that anymore. What’s sad is people try to bring an interpretation of this story into modern times. It has none, IMO.

Excellent!  Bob Dylan.  I went to the University of Bob Dylan.  I got all A’s!
Everybody should go to the U of BD! cool smile

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Posted: 17 October 2013 08:42 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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Michelle D. - 08 October 2013 02:45 PM

I had an interesting happening today. I spoke with a friend who is not a church-goer, not very fond of organized religion as far as I know, but she does believe in God and Jesus. To her God is love.

We spoke about something unrelated but I ended up mentioning the story of Abraham being told to sacrifice his son. For some reason she had never heard that story and thought I was joking. In her mind God would never have ordered such a thing and that this couldn’t be true what I was saying.

We spoke again a bit later and she said that the Bible must be wrong on that. If God said something like that he seemed like an egomaniac with a strange need to be “praised” by playing with people in such a way.

Honestly, this was the most powerful thing she said as I know she believes in God, and this was really a unique encounter. Rather than rationalizing things as is done by those who know the story she discarded it. Makes me wonder then where people get their theology. Apparently not from the Bible.

Here is the thing about all this.  We cannot disqualify the bible or God simply because everything in our society revolves around pre conceived notions that piggy back off of the bible. 

For instance everything is moot when it comes to the Theory of Evolution simply because the evolutionist has to rely on biblical principles to make his/her analysis. 

In other words, we all have “presuppositions” which is our most basic beliefs about reality. They are the rules of interpretation that we assume at the OUTSET before any investigation of evidence. Example: Reliability of the senses. NOBODY comes to the evidence with a blank slate being neutral.

Proverbs 1:7 – the fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

I believe that in every persons heart God has hardwired some of His presuppositions even into the mind of the unbeliever – we are made in His image - and the unbeliever can deny that, but CANNOT escape that, and is able to have some knowledge and wisdom because he/she relies on biblical presuppositions – this person just doesn’t say it, admit it, acknowledge it, or agree with God’s word.

The simple fact that a person can make an argument against God is because God exists, and God allows them to do it. This person is barrowing God’s laws of logic, scientific principles, and moral codes.

The same follows with morality……… an evolutionist who is outraged at seeing a violent murder on TV says… that person should go to jail! But in truth they are borrowing on biblical presuppositions again in order to make their case.

[ Edited: 17 October 2013 08:55 AM by Jacko1 ]
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Posted: 17 October 2013 08:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
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Michelle D. - 08 October 2013 02:45 PM

I had an interesting happening today. I spoke with a friend who is not a church-goer, not very fond of organized religion as far as I know, but she does believe in God and Jesus. To her God is love.

We spoke about something unrelated but I ended up mentioning the story of Abraham being told to sacrifice his son. For some reason she had never heard that story and thought I was joking. In her mind God would never have ordered such a thing and that this couldn’t be true what I was saying.

We spoke again a bit later and she said that the Bible must be wrong on that. If God said something like that he seemed like an egomaniac with a strange need to be “praised” by playing with people in such a way.

Honestly, this was the most powerful thing she said as I know she believes in God, and this was really a unique encounter. Rather than rationalizing things as is done by those who know the story she discarded it. Makes me wonder then where people get their theology. Apparently not from the Bible.

About God asking Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac…........  It does hit some people rather harsh who have no clue about it as an odd request.  However if they truly understand what the scripture is teaching they would not think in such harsh terms about God. 

For one thing, God never allowed Abraham to go through with killing his son; it was only a test of his faith.  A test that would later reenact itself with God’s one and only son (Jesus/incarnate) on the cross.  Because if you understand the crucifixion and the rapture, this was the only way that God could make amends for sin. 

So he did not sacrifice Isaac, but rather Himself!

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Posted: 17 October 2013 09:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
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Jacko1 - 17 October 2013 08:42 AM
Michelle D. - 08 October 2013 02:45 PM

I had an interesting happening today. I spoke with a friend who is not a church-goer, not very fond of organized religion as far as I know, but she does believe in God and Jesus. To her God is love.

We spoke about something unrelated but I ended up mentioning the story of Abraham being told to sacrifice his son. For some reason she had never heard that story and thought I was joking. In her mind God would never have ordered such a thing and that this couldn’t be true what I was saying.

We spoke again a bit later and she said that the Bible must be wrong on that. If God said something like that he seemed like an egomaniac with a strange need to be “praised” by playing with people in such a way.

Honestly, this was the most powerful thing she said as I know she believes in God, and this was really a unique encounter. Rather than rationalizing things as is done by those who know the story she discarded it. Makes me wonder then where people get their theology. Apparently not from the Bible.

Here is the thing about all this.  We cannot disqualify the bible or God simply because everything in our society revolves around pre conceived notions that piggy back off of the bible. 

For instance everything is moot when it comes to the Theory of Evolution simply because the evolutionist has to rely on biblical principles to make his/her analysis. 

In other words, we all have “presuppositions” which is our most basic beliefs about reality. They are the rules of interpretation that we assume at the OUTSET before any investigation of evidence. Example: Reliability of the senses. NOBODY comes to the evidence with a blank slate being neutral.


Just remember the that you are have a responsibility for the actions people take in the name of the “gods” you invent.  As I tell the NRA members I know, “You enable, you are responsible.”

As far as the Abraham-Isaac story; this was generally one of the advances in human morality that the Biblical traditions can be given for.  At the time, when condoms and other birth control were not yet known child “sacrifice was not uncommon as a method of birth control.  The Bible is not the only place that demonstrates this; i.e. the story of Oedipus Rex in Greek mythology.  But the question is often still the same, do you want to bring another child into the world when you are unable to give proper care to the children you already have.

Proverbs 1:7 – the fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

I believe that in every persons heart God has hardwired some of His presuppositions even into the mind of the unbeliever – we are made in His image - and the unbeliever can deny that, but CANNOT escape that, and is able to have some knowledge and wisdom because he/she relies on biblical presuppositions – this person just doesn’t say it, admit it, acknowledge it, or agree with God’s word.

The simple fact that a person can make an argument against God is because God exists, and God allows them to do it. This person is barrowing God’s laws of logic, scientific principles, and moral codes.

The same follows with morality……… an evolutionist who is outraged at seeing a violent murder on TV says… that person should go to jail! But in truth they are borrowing on biblical presuppositions again in order to make their case.

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Posted: 17 October 2013 01:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
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Jacko1 - 17 October 2013 08:53 AM

  However if they truly understand what the scripture is teaching they would not think in such harsh terms about God. 

That’s kinda the whole trick isn’t it? Any attempt I’ve made to understand always ends with someone telling me I don’t “truly” understand. Usually because I didn’t “truly” believe before any attempt at understanding even began. That’s backwards, and any statement about anything can be said to be true if you first believe that it is true, but only for those who choose to believe, which isn’t how truth works.

Welcome to the forum Jacko. Sorry I won’t be putting the coffee on.

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Posted: 17 October 2013 01:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
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Gary the Human

All the Gods and all religions are created by humans, to meet human needs and accomplish human ends.


Not necessarily Gary.  If you look deeper and delve for answers there are many truths that are imbedded in religion that prove the existence of a Creator. 

Take for instance the Hebrew alphabet and its true origins.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_MWgsAuk60

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Posted: 17 October 2013 03:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
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Jacko1 - 17 October 2013 01:58 PM

If you look deeper and delve for answers there are many truths that are imbedded in religion that prove the existence of a Creator. 

But of course that requires that YOU look gary. You must be the seeker and truly see, with your eyes. Your eyes, and your heart must be open. And you must be awake. And your cholesterol should be within guidelines. 

“And you shall seek me, and find me, when you shall search for me with all your heart.” Jeremiah 29:13

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Posted: 17 October 2013 06:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
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I find it very interesting how this story of Abraham “again” is defended and rationalized. That was my whole point actually. Those who know the story must defend it, because it’s sick and doesn’t fit anywhere near a “God of Love”. My friend was and is rather rational. She has an idea of God and believes, but stuff like that is just too far out there to make any sense of if God is supposed to be loving. Play such a mind-game as a human being and nobody will ever talk to you again, because it’s plain morbid and twisted on the level of a psychopath.

The “point” of the story, be that faith or the foreshadowing of Christ, is fine with me, but here’s the difference: All kinds of stories making points are brutal, and sometimes really twisted in their morality, just think of the Greek pantheon. The difference lies in the (Evangelical, Fundamentalist, or Traditional Catholic) Christian insistence of its historical reality rather than being a story to teach a certain lesson. The latter teaches the lesson and that was it. Point was made. Nobody bothers wondering how this can be explained. It’s just a story. The former messes up people’s minds so bad they will commit genocide to defend their ill-conceived ideas.

@ Jacko:

You mention piggy-bagging the Bible. Didn’t the opposite happen here?

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Posted: 17 October 2013 07:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
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Michelle, don’t forget the story about God visiting upon Lot all manner of horrors just so he could win a bet with the Devil.

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Posted: 17 October 2013 09:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]
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DarronS - 17 October 2013 07:54 PM

Michelle, don’t forget the story about God visiting upon Lot all manner of horrors just so he could win a bet with the Devil.

Hi Darron! ... I think you mean Job, but yes, very interesting book! It’s one of the Bible’s books used in literature classes, precisely because it is just a story to teach a lesson, and a beautiful one at that. According to certain Christian beliefs though it was an actual historical event. Drives me nuts! smile

If we would learn from the Christian stories as we do or once did from the Greek mythologies and tragedies and comedies… hey, that’s neat and there are some good points, but this whole literalism is nauseating.

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