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Interesting happening…
Posted: 18 October 2013 05:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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Michelle D. - 17 October 2013 09:33 PM

If we would learn from the Christian stories as we do or once did from the Greek mythologies and tragedies and comedies… hey, that’s neat and there are some good points, but this whole literalism is nauseating.

And sadly you can miss the value of the story. The good Samaritan seems like a very simple message, but if you know what Samaria was and who the characters in the story represent, it is pointed political commentary.

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Posted: 18 October 2013 07:16 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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Michelle D. - 17 October 2013 09:33 PM
DarronS - 17 October 2013 07:54 PM

Michelle, don’t forget the story about God visiting upon Lot all manner of horrors just so he could win a bet with the Devil.

Hi Darron! ... I think you mean Job, but yes, very interesting book! It’s one of the Bible’s books used in literature classes, precisely because it is just a story to teach a lesson, and a beautiful one at that. According to certain Christian beliefs though it was an actual historical event. Drives me nuts! smile

If we would learn from the Christian stories as we do or once did from the Greek mythologies and tragedies and comedies… hey, that’s neat and there are some good points, but this whole literalism is nauseating.

I was thinking Job. Don’t know why I typed Lot.

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Posted: 18 October 2013 09:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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Jacko1 - 17 October 2013 08:42 AM

For instance everything is moot when it comes to the Theory of Evolution simply because the evolutionist has to rely on biblical principles to make his/her analysis.

What do Biblical principles have to do with the theory of evolution?

I believe that in every persons heart God has hardwired some of His presuppositions even into the mind of the unbeliever – we are made in His image - and the unbeliever can deny that, but CANNOT escape that, and is able to have some knowledge and wisdom because he/she relies on biblical presuppositions – this person just doesn’t say it, admit it, acknowledge it, or agree with God’s word.

I see it differently.  We all have the same cultural background, which is really where our morality comes from.  This cultural background was (naturally) written into the Bible, so we can’t help but see some things the same, whether we believe in God or not.  But it has nothing to do with having it “hard-wired” into us by God.

The simple fact that a person can make an argument against God is because God exists, and God allows them to do it. This person is barrowing God’s laws of logic, scientific principles, and moral codes.

This is just a circular argument.  You believe that God is the cause of everything, so you can’t help seeing it that way.  I grant you that.

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Posted: 19 October 2013 09:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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Jacko1 - 17 October 2013 01:58 PM

Gary the Human

All the Gods and all religions are created by humans, to meet human needs and accomplish human ends.


Not necessarily Gary.  If you look deeper and delve for answers there are many truths that are imbedded in religion that prove the existence of a Creator. 

Take for instance the Hebrew alphabet and its true origins.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_MWgsAuk60

You are responsible for the gods you create and the actions taken in their name, religion is a human tool and can be used for both good and evil action, i.e. bad the inquisition, discrimination against gays; good - help the poor the U.S. Civil Rights movement.

Religion is an organizing tool no more no less.

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All the Gods and all religions are created by humans, to meet human needs and accomplish human ends.

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Posted: 19 October 2013 12:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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Occam. - 15 October 2013 05:53 PM
BarbaraZ - 15 October 2013 10:56 AM

Also my youngest child was not taken to a church to worship and religion not a topic in home, but she displayed a knowledge of knowing about God.  Children know things.

  It’s amazing how well tiny children listen and pick up information.  My parent’s didn’t talk about Santa Claus or god, but I recall that I knew about both of them from listening to neighborhood children and people, radio programs, relatives, etc. even when they weren’t talking to me or even realizing that I was listening.  I had already decided they were fairytales, but I still knew all about the stories of them.

Occam

God and Santa Claus are so much a part of the culture, a kid would have to be deaf and blind never to pick up on god and legends even if they come from a home where it isn’t discussed or it’s discussed differently. Kids have a hard time assessing this constant chatter.  Most tend to go along with the crowd or pretend to. It probably comes from the same root as language.  Put a kid who is young enough into an environment where the language is different than the parents’ language and the kid will speak like the surrounding population,  not like the parents. Most will not even have a detectable accent. Humans are very much affected by their surroundings.  It takes a lot of maturity and intellect to assess community cultural beliefs and come to one’s own conclusions. Maybe we have to imitate before we can effectively challenge common beliefs.

Lois

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Posted: 19 October 2013 12:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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Lausten - 17 October 2013 01:35 PM
Jacko1 - 17 October 2013 08:53 AM

  However if they truly understand what the scripture is teaching they would not think in such harsh terms about God. 

That’s kinda the whole trick isn’t it? Any attempt I’ve made to understand always ends with someone telling me I don’t “truly” understand. Usually because I didn’t “truly” believe before any attempt at understanding even began. That’s backwards, and any statement about anything can be said to be true if you first believe that it is true, but only for those who choose to believe, which isn’t how truth works.

Welcome to the forum Jacko. Sorry I won’t be putting the coffee on.

One could as easily say that if people truly understood what critical thinking tells them they would not be so willing to accept the concept of any god.

Works both ways.

Lois

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Posted: 20 October 2013 07:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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Lois - 19 October 2013 12:29 PM
Lausten - 17 October 2013 01:35 PM
Jacko1 - 17 October 2013 08:53 AM

  However if they truly understand what the scripture is teaching they would not think in such harsh terms about God. 

That’s kinda the whole trick isn’t it? Any attempt I’ve made to understand always ends with someone telling me I don’t “truly” understand. Usually because I didn’t “truly” believe before any attempt at understanding even began. That’s backwards, and any statement about anything can be said to be true if you first believe that it is true, but only for those who choose to believe, which isn’t how truth works.

Welcome to the forum Jacko. Sorry I won’t be putting the coffee on.

One could as easily say that if people truly understood what critical thinking tells them they would not be so willing to accept the concept of any god.

Works both ways.

Lois

A question remains….........  who put the original “idea of God” in the minds of people?

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Posted: 20 October 2013 07:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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Jacko1 - 20 October 2013 07:24 AM

A question remains….........  who put the original “idea of God” in the minds of people?

Peyote.

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Posted: 20 October 2013 07:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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Jacko1 - 20 October 2013 07:24 AM

A question remains….........  who put the original “idea of God” in the minds of people?

Human beings have had a near infinite number of ideas over our history. An idea does not need to come form an external source. They are the natural outcome of thought. God is simply the easiest answer to a complex universe for a mind that is still ignorant and immature in its understanding of the universe. If you don;t understand why it was sunny yesterday and a storm is blowing your house away today the easiest answer is to presume some supernatural being is behind it all. It requires no deeper understanding of the nature of the universe and anyone can have an answer then without having to study quantum mechanics

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Posted: 20 October 2013 07:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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Advocatus, you ask, what do biblical principles have to do with the theory of evolution, and you also ask how this ties in with “morality”?

Firstly on the “theory of evolution”…………….  Again, there are “preconditions” – things that have to be true in advance in order for knowledge to be possible. For instance, in order for us to have “intelligibility” we are barrowing the precondition of the Bible. One such biblical quote:  Proverbs 1:7 – the fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

For example, a person who’s arguing for air would have to use air to make an argument “against” air. The fact that he’s able to make an argument at all proves he’s wrong!  This person is barrowing God’s laws of logic and scientific principles.

Now when talking about morality………….  How could we have right and wrong in a chance universe? The community does not develop these laws, there is a divine aught!  A person can repeatedly says, we don’t need God to do good, just do unto others as you would have them do unto you (principles adopted by society) by those who decide what benefits society, HOWEVER relying of biblical presuppositions again. Additionally almost all laws are biblically based (10 commandments).

In conclusion as wild and crazy as this may sound to some, because biblical presuppositions exist one cannot argue against it, in any way, shape, or form. Additionally, “if the Bible were not TRUE”, it would be impossible to prove anything.
Can you grasp that, truly a hard concept to swallow, or do you not have intelligibility?  smile

[ Edited: 20 October 2013 07:55 AM by Jacko1 ]
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Posted: 20 October 2013 08:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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And again, that is why I am so perplexed by THIS knowledge.  It is opening my mind on a dimensional level.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_MWgsAuk60

That is why I am here for the challenge.  It appears to be God’s WORD that stands!

[ Edited: 20 October 2013 08:16 AM by Jacko1 ]
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Posted: 20 October 2013 08:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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DarronS - 20 October 2013 07:25 AM
Jacko1 - 20 October 2013 07:24 AM

A question remains….........  who put the original “idea of God” in the minds of people?

Peyote.

Robert Anton Wilson agrees!  He’s also hypothesized that hallucinogens are what led us to organizing our various grunts into an actual language.  I think that recent evidence about animal communication disproves this, but given that mind altering substances have played a large role in many religions, I don’t think that its too much of stretch to believe that the accidental exposure to such things led to the formation, or at least some aspects of religion.

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Posted: 20 October 2013 10:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
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Coldheart Tucker - 20 October 2013 08:30 AM

I don’t think that its too much of stretch to believe that the accidental exposure to such things led to the formation, or at least some aspects of religion.

Depends on your definition of “stretch”. This idea has been around for decades, but has never had any confirmation, no evidence, it has not been shown to have any predictive power. So, if you ignore all the scholarship, sure, you could believe it.

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Posted: 20 October 2013 11:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
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Jacko1 - 20 October 2013 07:24 AM

A question remains….........  who put the original “idea of God” in the minds of people?

This is your best post so far. Why does it have to be a “who”? You also say that morality can’t come from a “chance” universe. Why not?

Morality is a set of ideas about cooperation and helping each other stay alive. It makes sense that a being that has been around long enough to develop a brain would do that.

I have some problems with the word “chance”, but we can get back to that later.

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Posted: 20 October 2013 01:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
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Oh my, the arguments for the existence of God are about as silly as they come. That’s one thing I admire about Kierkegaard, that at least he understood that and didn’t argue in that vein. If anyone it’s him I can respect, but all that other pseudo-scientific nonsense out there doesn’t even deserve a response.

Sure, God’s non-existence can’t be proven either, but an atheist is hardly interested in proving anything.

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