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Friend believes in a higher power that created all this…
Posted: 20 October 2013 12:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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Jacko1 - 19 October 2013 10:37 AM
macgyver - 19 October 2013 08:47 AM

You’re correct. If someone is going to accept an old book written by a conglomeration of people as indisputable fact rather than the evidence of the world around them and the conclusions that logic brings us to there may be little we can do. On the other hand I do not believe there is a believer out there who doesn’t have at least s small uncomfortable seed of doubt. The key if you are so inclined is to foster more doubt and encourage that seed to grow by helping that person see the logical flaws in their beliefs.

Yes, BUT, you miss the whole point Mac.  The bible was written some 3,000 years ago and is STILL valid today.

What it tells us is exactly what we observe in nature today - seed in itself. 

HOWEVER, the good book attributes this “knowledge” to a Creator that is behind everything in existence. 

The bible cannot be falsified!

How do you know it’s valid?

It doesn’t tell me anything about what I observe in nature.  How does seed come into it?

Of course the claims in the bible can be and have been falsified millions of times.  They cannot be proven to be true in any way. If you think they can be, we are all ears.

Lois

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Posted: 20 October 2013 08:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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Lois - 20 October 2013 12:00 AM
Jacko1 - 19 October 2013 08:39 AM

There is another obvious reason for a Creator. 

It is a very simple one!

For obvious reasons, people can learn from nature that everything comes from its like kind, just like the bible says about “seed in itself”. 

Science can bicker all they want about there not being a Creator, but scripture blatantly and outright informs us otherwise, that there is only ONE Creator and that this Creator created everything in existence. 

So how can we counteract that?

Simple, WE CAN’T!

Of course we can. You have shown no evidence that scripture is anything more than the ravings, wishes and fantasies of primitive men who didn’t know something as basic as that the sun didn’t revolve around the earth. You have accepted myths about scripture as if they were true with nothing to support them and then you challenge us to counteract what they claim! Science and common sense itself counteracts everything scripture claims.

Lois

Lois, there is a vast collection of archeological evidence that is to date being verified and validated by the Bible equating to proof.

http://www.equip.org/articles/biblical-archaeology-factual-evidence-to-support-the-historicity-of-the-bible/

[ Edited: 20 October 2013 08:39 AM by Jacko1 ]
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Posted: 20 October 2013 08:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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Lois - 20 October 2013 12:08 AM
Jacko1 - 19 October 2013 10:37 AM
macgyver - 19 October 2013 08:47 AM

You’re correct. If someone is going to accept an old book written by a conglomeration of people as indisputable fact rather than the evidence of the world around them and the conclusions that logic brings us to there may be little we can do. On the other hand I do not believe there is a believer out there who doesn’t have at least s small uncomfortable seed of doubt. The key if you are so inclined is to foster more doubt and encourage that seed to grow by helping that person see the logical flaws in their beliefs.

Yes, BUT, you miss the whole point Mac.  The bible was written some 3,000 years ago and is STILL valid today.

What it tells us is exactly what we observe in nature today - seed in itself. 

HOWEVER, the good book attributes this “knowledge” to a Creator that is behind everything in existence. 

The bible cannot be falsified!

How do you know it’s valid?

It doesn’t tell me anything about what I observe in nature.  How does seed come into it?

Of course the claims in the bible can be and have been falsified millions of times.  They cannot be proven to be true in any way. If you think they can be, we are all ears.

Lois


Romans 1:20 - For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.

Sorry do not mean to be preaching, just trying to answer your question. 

http://www.goddidcreations.com/bibleverses.php

[ Edited: 20 October 2013 08:36 AM by Jacko1 ]
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Posted: 20 October 2013 09:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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There were a whole lot of books and people who wrote that the world can be observed to determine what it’s made of and how it’s put together. I think that’s one of the legacies of the ancient Greeks, who were as far as I know the first culture to have this idea not be considered blasphemy. That’s ancient, as in 2500 years ago. Older than the New Testament by far. What makes the Bible special in this regard?

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Posted: 21 October 2013 09:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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Jacko1 - 19 October 2013 08:39 AM

There is another obvious reason for a Creator. 

It is a very simple one!

For obvious reasons, people can learn from nature that everything comes from its like kind, just like the bible says about “seed in itself”.

But Jacko, the idea that everything comes from its own kind (with variations on the genetic level) is the whole point of the Theory of Evolution!  Your Bible teaches the opposite, that everything was wished into being all at once.

Science can bicker all they want about there not being a Creator, but scripture blatantly and outright informs us otherwise, that there is only ONE Creator and that this Creator created everything in existence. 

So how can we counteract that?

We don’t “counteract” it at all.  We simply accept it as the opinion of a pre-scientific culture who did the best they could for their time, but got it wrong.

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Posted: 21 October 2013 09:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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Jacko1 - 20 October 2013 08:22 AM

http://www.equip.org/articles/biblical-archaeology-factual-evidence-to-support-the-historicity-of-the-bible/

From that website: “A Common Flood Story. Not just the Hebrews (Gen. 6–8), but Mesopotamians, Egyptians, and Greeks all report a flood in primordial times. A Sumerian king list from c. 2100 BC divides itself into two categories: those kings who ruled before a great flood and those who ruled after it. “

But, in the OT, everyone is wiped out, except Noah and his family. This evidence says kingdoms that existed before the flood were then repopulated. There is no mention of this in the Bible. In fact the lineages and histories of kingdoms is quite different. It is a rather abrupt transition from Gen 10 to Abraham and his travels to Egypt. The Bible says the languages were created at the Tower or Babel, after the flood, so how can we have historical records of Sumeria before the flood?

Anyone can make a list of things that are real and select only the facts that support their argument. You are diligent enough to look these things up and discuss them, now you need to check your own work. Look up these steles and civilizations in sources that aren’t talking about God. See how they fit into the big picture of history, not just one narrow view of it.

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Posted: 21 October 2013 09:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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Jacko1 - 19 October 2013 10:37 AM
macgyver - 19 October 2013 08:47 AM

You’re correct. If someone is going to accept an old book written by a conglomeration of people as indisputable fact rather than the evidence of the world around them and the conclusions that logic brings us to there may be little we can do. On the other hand I do not believe there is a believer out there who doesn’t have at least s small uncomfortable seed of doubt. The key if you are so inclined is to foster more doubt and encourage that seed to grow by helping that person see the logical flaws in their beliefs.

Yes, BUT, you miss the whole point Mac.  The bible was written some 3,000 years ago and is STILL valid today!

What it tells us is exactly what we observe in nature today - seed in itself. 

HOWEVER, the good book attributes this “knowledge” to a Creator that is behind everything in existence. 

The bible cannot be falsified!

The Bible actually tells us virtually nothing about how the world works that couldn’t be observed by any common man at the time. That’s not to say that people won’t try to twist some prescient meaning from a vague phrase but from the standpoint of a scientist or even a naturalist the book has no insights what so ever which is remarkable considering it is supposed to be a book from the being that created everything.

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Posted: 21 October 2013 11:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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Jacko1 - 20 October 2013 08:22 AM
Lois - 20 October 2013 12:00 AM
Jacko1 - 19 October 2013 08:39 AM

There is another obvious reason for a Creator. 

It is a very simple one!

For obvious reasons, people can learn from nature that everything comes from its like kind, just like the bible says about “seed in itself”. 

Science can bicker all they want about there not being a Creator, but scripture blatantly and outright informs us otherwise, that there is only ONE Creator and that this Creator created everything in existence. 

So how can we counteract that?

Simple, WE CAN’T!

Of course we can. You have shown no evidence that scripture is anything more than the ravings, wishes and fantasies of primitive men who didn’t know something as basic as that the sun didn’t revolve around the earth. You have accepted myths about scripture as if they were true with nothing to support them and then you challenge us to counteract what they claim! Science and common sense itself counteracts everything scripture claims.

Lois

Lois, there is a vast collection of archeological evidence that is to date being verified and validated by the Bible equating to proof.

http://www.equip.org/articles/biblical-archaeology-factual-evidence-to-support-the-historicity-of-the-bible/


Archeological proof about what? That people lived in a certain place in biblical times and built cities, the remnants of which are still present? We have no dispute with what archeology can uncover. Archeology says absolutely nothing about religious claims.  All it does is show that the places noted in the bible existed. (In fact, modern geological, geographical and archeological research shows that the bible actually had a lot of the geography all wrong.)  modern science says nothing about whether what the bible claims is true. It shows that people existed in a certain place, but not that they were anything other than ordinary humans with ordinary human’s concerns. You could prove that everything about the geology, architecture and history in the bible is true and that the people believed in and practiced certain religions, but never come up with any evidence that even one supernatural claim is true.

Lois

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Posted: 21 October 2013 11:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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Jacko1 - 20 October 2013 08:33 AM
Lois - 20 October 2013 12:08 AM
Jacko1 - 19 October 2013 10:37 AM
macgyver - 19 October 2013 08:47 AM

You’re correct. If someone is going to accept an old book written by a conglomeration of people as indisputable fact rather than the evidence of the world around them and the conclusions that logic brings us to there may be little we can do. On the other hand I do not believe there is a believer out there who doesn’t have at least s small uncomfortable seed of doubt. The key if you are so inclined is to foster more doubt and encourage that seed to grow by helping that person see the logical flaws in their beliefs.

Yes, BUT, you miss the whole point Mac.  The bible was written some 3,000 years ago and is STILL valid today.

What it tells us is exactly what we observe in nature today - seed in itself. 

HOWEVER, the good book attributes this “knowledge” to a Creator that is behind everything in existence. 

The bible cannot be falsified!

How do you know it’s valid?

It doesn’t tell me anything about what I observe in nature.  How does seed come into it?

Of course the claims in the bible can be and have been falsified millions of times.  They cannot be proven to be true in any way. If you think they can be, we are all ears.

Lois


Romans 1:20 - For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.

Sorry do not mean to be preaching, just trying to answer your question. 

http://www.goddidcreations.com/bibleverses.php


You can’t prove anything in the bible is true by citing hiblical passages. It seems ridiculous that you should need to be told that, but that’s what religious belief does to people. It often interferes with their ability to understand the rules of evidence and logic.

Lois

[ Edited: 21 October 2013 11:06 PM by Lois ]
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Posted: 21 October 2013 03:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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Jacko1 - 19 October 2013 10:37 AM
macgyver - 19 October 2013 08:47 AM

You’re correct. If someone is going to accept an old book written by a conglomeration of people as indisputable fact rather than the evidence of the world around them and the conclusions that logic brings us to there may be little we can do. On the other hand I do not believe there is a believer out there who doesn’t have at least s small uncomfortable seed of doubt. The key if you are so inclined is to foster more doubt and encourage that seed to grow by helping that person see the logical flaws in their beliefs.

Yes, BUT, you miss the whole point Mac.  The bible was written some 3,000 years ago and is STILL valid today!

What it tells us is exactly what we observe in nature today - seed in itself. 

HOWEVER, the good book attributes this “knowledge” to a Creator that is behind everything in existence. 

The bible cannot be falsified!

And that is the problem, no?  Tell me, if there was no belief in God, would the universe and everything in it still exist? Or are you claiming that the universe exists because YOU believe in the Bible?

The concern with falsifiability gained attention by way of philosopher of science Karl Popper’s scientific epistemology “falsificationism”. Popper stresses the problem of demarcation—distinguishing the scientific from the unscientific — and makes falsifiability the demarcation criterion, such that what is unfalsifiable is classified as unscientific, and the practice of declaring an unfalsifiable theory to be scientifically true is pseudoscience.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsify

By claiming that the bible cannot be falsified, you have just relegated it to the realm of pseudoscience. Thanks for clearing that up.

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Posted: 21 October 2013 06:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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Write4U - 21 October 2013 03:54 PM

The concern with falsifiability gained attention by way of philosopher of science Karl Popper’s scientific epistemology “falsificationism”. Popper stresses the problem of demarcation—distinguishing the scientific from the unscientific — and makes falsifiability the demarcation criterion, such that what is unfalsifiable is classified as unscientific, and the practice of declaring an unfalsifiable theory to be scientifically true is pseudoscience.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsify

By claiming that the bible cannot be falsified, you have just relegated it to the realm of pseudoscience. Thanks for clearing that up.

Wow, thanks for copying that one, otherwise I would have missed it. I’ve run into this a couple times lately, people who can repeat a decent definition of falsifiable, but then apply it to the Bible and claim the Bible can’t be said to be false. Not sure how to untangle that one. The best I can do is to say non-falsifiable is pure speculation, or to be a little less nice, it’s meaningless.

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Posted: 21 October 2013 06:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.  I have mine.

Here is a good book that talks about how the atomic particles are fine tuned, and geared towards a designer.  The name of the book is called:  Chance Or Dance: An Evaluation of Design by Jimmy H. Davis, Harry L. Po.

Its starts on page 72, but keep reading till about page 76.  A good read!

http://books.google.com/books?id=Z2vw-GSfHPgC&pg=PA72&lpg=PA72&ots=tZCQVYnC-1&focus=viewport&dq=sub+atomic+particles+and+chance?&output=html_text

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Posted: 21 October 2013 07:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
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Jacko the whole idea of a” finely tuned universe” universe is one we are all familiar with here and one that has been discredited.

There are a number of things wrong with this argument but the main issue is that you are looking at an uncommon occurrence after the event and then asking what the odds are. To give an example, lets say you flip a coin a thousand times and get a given result. What ever the final pattern, the odds of getting that pattern is 1/2^1000th which is a pretty tiny number. The thing is that the odds are exactly the same for every possible outcome. The odds of getting a given outcome are only remote if you were trying to get that outcome from the start.

You think that the odds are impossibly high for the universe to have happened this way because this particular set of values and constants led to us. Anything different would have led to something else but the odds of getting any other universe are as remote as our own. There is absolutely nothing special about this universe except that it led to us, but that’s only special to us. To the universe it means nothing.

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Posted: 21 October 2013 07:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
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macgyver - 21 October 2013 07:27 PM

Jacko the whole idea of a” finely tuned universe” universe is one we are all familiar with here and one that has been discredited.

There are a number of things wrong with this argument but the main issue is that you are looking at an uncommon occurrence after the event and then asking what the odds are. To give an example, lets say you flip a coin a thousand times and get a given result. What ever the final pattern, the odds of getting that pattern is 1/2^1000th which is a pretty tiny number. The thing is that the odds are exactly the same for every possible outcome. The odds of getting a given outcome are only remote if you were trying to get that outcome from the start.

You think that the odds are impossibly high for the universe to have happened this way because this particular set of values and constants led to us. Anything different would have led to something else but the odds of getting any other universe are as remote as our own. There is absolutely nothing special about this universe except that it led to us, but that’s only special to us. To the universe it means nothing.

Are you certain about this?  Because last time I checked, we have yet to find life elsewhere in the universe.

Sure, “chance”, it’s all nice in theory, but it still evades the FACTS.

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Posted: 21 October 2013 07:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
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Jacko1 - 21 October 2013 06:58 PM

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.  I have mine.

Here is a good book that talks about how the atomic particles are fine tuned, and geared towards a designer.  The name of the book is called:  Chance Or Dance: An Evaluation of Design by Jimmy H. Davis, Harry L. Po.

Its starts on page 72, but keep reading till about page 76.  A good read!

http://books.google.com/books?id=Z2vw-GSfHPgC&pg=PA72&lpg=PA72&ots=tZCQVYnC-1&focus=viewport&dq=sub+atomic+particles+and+chance?&output=html_text

Of course particles and elements are fine tuned. They could not exist otherwise.  But that is no evidence of conscious engineering, it is proof of evolution, the process of trial and error in a laboratory with unlimited potential (the universe).

Do you know how gold (that sacred precious metal) is made?  One might say gold is fashioned in hell (supernova)

Like all elements with atomic numbers larger than iron, gold is thought to have been formed from a supernova nucleosynthesis process,[citation needed] although a newer theory suggests they are made by the collision of neutron stars instead.

and

In a supernova in the depths of space, long, long ago…
According to Tyson, author of Death by Black Hole and Other Cosmic Quandries, all gold on Earth started out in the center of a star; he says stars are “in the business of cosmic alchemy.”

http://www.usagold.com/reference/creation-of-gold.html

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