3 of 6
3
Is there true charity in the world?
Posted: 10 November 2013 12:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
Moderator
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  5551
Joined  2010-06-16

Geez, Lois’ post number 29 could have been written exactly the same by me describing my earlier life. 

It would seem that if everyone had only conscious motivation, they wouldn’t do anything that would damage them.  If that is so, consider: a) the large population in jails, b) the larger population in mental institutions, d) the many successful psychiatric therapists. 

Take a few examples of mentally ill people you know or have read about, and for a moment attempt to think like them.  See if their weird reasoning appears to be all conscious.

Occam

 Signature 

Succinctness, clarity’s core.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 10 November 2013 01:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
Jr. Member
RankRank
Total Posts:  45
Joined  2013-10-29

Have you studied philosophy of quantum mechanics at all?

Profile
 
 
Posted: 10 November 2013 02:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
Moderator
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  5551
Joined  2010-06-16

Although chemistry majors were not required to take philosophy courses (wouldn’t want chemists to have ethics, would we?), my wife took some philosophy courses at a local university. They interested me so I enrolled and took a number of them.  However, while both are extremely important, I see science and philosophy as almost completely separate disciplines.  Just because the reality of quantum mechanics is very different from the macro world we observe, I don’t think it justifies a separate set of philosophy.

Occam

 Signature 

Succinctness, clarity’s core.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 10 November 2013 03:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2602
Joined  2012-10-27
Occam. - 10 November 2013 12:24 PM

Geez, Lois’ post number 29 could have been written exactly the same by me describing my earlier life. 

It would seem that if everyone had only conscious motivation, they wouldn’t do anything that would damage them.  If that is so, consider: a) the large population in jails, b) the larger population in mental institutions, d) the many successful psychiatric therapists. 

Take a few examples of mentally ill people you know or have read about, and for a moment attempt to think like them.  See if their weird reasoning appears to be all conscious.

Occam

wink

Profile
 
 
Posted: 10 November 2013 03:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2602
Joined  2012-10-27
Rupert - 10 November 2013 01:46 PM

Have you studied philosophy of quantum mechanics at all?

Rupert, will you explain what quantum mechanics has to do with determinism vs free will?

Lois

Profile
 
 
Posted: 10 November 2013 04:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  6164
Joined  2009-02-26

perhaps this may be more directly related to the discussion.

from wiki

Altruism,
Much debate exists as to whether “true” altruism is possible. The theory of psychological egoism suggests that no act of sharing, helping or sacrificing can be described as truly altruistic, as the actor may receive an intrinsic reward in the form of personal gratification. The validity of this argument depends on whether intrinsic rewards qualify as “benefits.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altruism

 Signature 

Art is the creation of that which evokes an emotional response, leading to thoughts of the noblest kind.
W4U

Profile
 
 
Posted: 10 November 2013 04:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
Jr. Member
RankRank
Total Posts:  45
Joined  2013-10-29
Lois - 10 November 2013 03:47 PM

Rupert, will you explain what quantum mechanics has to do with determinism vs free will?

Lois

If you define determinism to be the doctrine that everything that happens is the inevitable outcome of previously existing conditions, then the philosophy of quantum mechanics is relevant in that there are some interpretations of quantum mechanics in which some aspects of the evolution of the state of the system which are indeterministic. For example, in a given sample of radioactive atoms, there is no way to predict which atom will decay next, it is a purely random matter. On the other hand, the “many-worlds” interpretation of quantum mechanics could be considered deterministic, in the sense that the evolution of the multiverse is deterministic.

The relationship to the question of free will is less clear, because it’s not really clear that randomness can rescue free will.

I think Write4U is worried that we are going off topic.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 10 November 2013 05:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  6164
Joined  2009-02-26

Don’t let it stop you. Please.  I enjoy all intelligent discussion…....reading.gif

But I did also run across this;

Psychological egoism is the view that humans are always motivated by self-interest, even in what seem to be acts of altruism. It claims that, when people choose to help others, they do so ultimately because of the personal benefits that they themselves expect to obtain, directly or indirectly, from doing so. This is a descriptive rather than normative view, since it only makes claims about how things are, not how they ought to be. It is, however, related to several other normative forms of egoism, such as ethical egoism and rational egoism.

and

For example, German philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche argued, in the §133 of his The Dawn, that in such cases compassionate impulses arise out of the projection of our identity unto the object of our feeling. He gives some hypothetical examples as illustrations to his thesis: that of a person, feeling horrified after witnessing a personal feud, coughing blood, or that of the impulse felt to save a person who drowns in the water. In such cases, according to Nietzsche, there comes into play unconscious fears regarding our own safety. The suffering of another person is felt as a threat to our own happiness and sense of safety, because it reveals our own vulnerability to misfortunes, and thus, by relieving it, one could also ameliorate those personal sentiments.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_egoism

I believe this argues for my citing the “mirror neural network” as an important factor in our motivation to help.

[ Edited: 10 November 2013 06:08 PM by Write4U ]
 Signature 

Art is the creation of that which evokes an emotional response, leading to thoughts of the noblest kind.
W4U

Profile
 
 
Posted: 10 November 2013 06:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
Moderator
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  5551
Joined  2010-06-16

At the moment I can’t remember the name of the excellent physicist who said, “If anyone says they understand quantum mechanics, they don’t.”  One of the most common misconceptions non-scientists have about it is conflating the events that occur in the micro world with macro world behavior.  Just because some of the world at or below the level of atoms is indeterminate doesn’t mean that translates into our macro world. 

While a given sub-atomic particle will behave according to quantum indeterminacy, the trillions (to some power) of particles in any macro world item, will behave quite nicely deterministically.

Occam

 Signature 

Succinctness, clarity’s core.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 10 November 2013 07:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4860
Joined  2007-10-05

Richard Feynman said that, Occam, and he probably understood QM as well as anyone.  wink

 Signature 

You cannot have a rational conversation with someone who holds irrational beliefs.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 10 November 2013 09:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2602
Joined  2012-10-27
Rupert - 10 November 2013 04:32 PM
Lois - 10 November 2013 03:47 PM

Rupert, will you explain what quantum mechanics has to do with determinism vs free will?

Lois

If you define determinism to be the doctrine that everything that happens is the inevitable outcome of previously existing conditions, then the philosophy of quantum mechanics is relevant in that there are some interpretations of quantum mechanics in which some aspects of the evolution of the state of the system which are indeterministic. For example, in a given sample of radioactive atoms, there is no way to predict which atom will decay next, it is a purely random matter. On the other hand, the “many-worlds” interpretation of quantum mechanics could be considered deterministic, in the sense that the evolution of the multiverse is deterministic.

The relationship to the question of free will is less clear, because it’s not really clear that randomness can rescue free will.

I think Write4U is worried that we are going off topic.

I’ve heard similar arguments before, but if there is randomness in the universe, it does not support the idea of free will. Randomness would just be one more factor we have no control over.

It’s not off topic, IMO. So Write4U can relax. wink

Profile
 
 
Posted: 10 November 2013 09:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4860
Joined  2007-10-05
Lois - 10 November 2013 09:55 PM

It’s not off topic, IMO. So Write4U can relax. wink

Yeah, but what if it is potential randomness?  shock

 Signature 

You cannot have a rational conversation with someone who holds irrational beliefs.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 10 November 2013 10:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2602
Joined  2012-10-27
Write4U - 10 November 2013 05:50 PM

Don’t let it stop you. Please.  I enjoy all intelligent discussion…....reading.gif

But I did also run across this;

Psychological egoism is the view that humans are always motivated by self-interest, even in what seem to be acts of altruism. It claims that, when people choose to help others, they do so ultimately because of the personal benefits that they themselves expect to obtain, directly or indirectly, from doing so. This is a descriptive rather than normative view, since it only makes claims about how things are, not how they ought to be. It is, however, related to several other normative forms of egoism, such as ethical egoism and rational egoism.

and

For example, German philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche argued, in the §133 of his The Dawn, that in such cases compassionate impulses arise out of the projection of our identity unto the object of our feeling. He gives some hypothetical examples as illustrations to his thesis: that of a person, feeling horrified after witnessing a personal feud, coughing blood, or that of the impulse felt to save a person who drowns in the water. In such cases, according to Nietzsche, there comes into play unconscious fears regarding our own safety. The suffering of another person is felt as a threat to our own happiness and sense of safety, because it reveals our own vulnerability to misfortunes, and thus, by relieving it, one could also ameliorate those personal sentiments.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_egoism

I believe this argues for my citing the “mirror neural network” as an important factor in our motivation to help.


That may be true, but it is also another factor the source of which we don’t know.  We may feel the impulse,fears and vulnerability without knowing where they come from, what is creating them and also be unable to control them. Yet they drive our decisions.

Lois

Profile
 
 
Posted: 10 November 2013 10:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2602
Joined  2012-10-27
DarronS - 10 November 2013 09:56 PM
Lois - 10 November 2013 09:55 PM

It’s not off topic, IMO. So Write4U can relax. wink

Yeah, but what if it is potential randomness?  shock

What does that have to do with the price of artichokes?

Lois

Profile
 
 
Posted: 10 November 2013 10:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  6164
Joined  2009-02-26
Occam. - 10 November 2013 06:25 PM

At the moment I can’t remember the name of the excellent physicist who said, “If anyone says they understand quantum mechanics, they don’t.”  One of the most common misconceptions non-scientists have about it is conflating the events that occur in the micro world with macro world behavior.  Just because some of the world at or below the level of atoms is indeterminate doesn’t mean that translates into our macro world. 

While a given sub-atomic particle will behave according to quantum indeterminacy, the trillions (to some power) of particles in any macro world item, will behave quite nicely deterministically.

Occam

What is the difference between the term “indeterminacy” in QM and the term “probability wave function” of particles?  Seems to me they are sides of the same coin and describe the same thing but in specific context.

 Signature 

Art is the creation of that which evokes an emotional response, leading to thoughts of the noblest kind.
W4U

Profile
 
 
   
3 of 6
3