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The Kennedy Assassination
Posted: 20 November 2013 12:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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CuthbertJ - 19 November 2013 10:52 AM

Again, I’m amazed at how such otherwise skeptical people such as yourselves can be utterly unskeptical and trusting of the official story. It’s as if no amount of evidence will shake your belief and faith in organizations like the CIA, the Pentagon, and the US government.  Amazing, and nutty.


Speaking for myself, I am skeptical of all conspiracy theories, especially those that would require the iintricate involvement and silence of many people.  It goes against human nature to stay silent for very long. All of those people in the CIA, the FBI, the Pentagon and other parts of the government, working in concert, and not one speaks up in 50 years? Many media sources would have paid hundreds of thousands of dollars or more for an interview with someone who was in on such a conspiracy and would spill the beans. All of the people who would have had to be involved are unlikely to turn away from large amounts of money and surely one of them would talk just out of guilt. Most of the supposed conspirators would now be dead and any one of them might have decided to record or write about his involvement to be revealed after his death, yet not one person had done so, not for money for his family, not for posthumous glory not to relieve himself of guilt. Those are the reasons I am skeptical about all conspiracy theories. They require too many people to act with faultless precision and nearly perfect timing and to keep complete silence for years. It goes against what we know about human nature and human abilities. To accept a conspiracy theory like that you would have to believe that not one credible person would break his silence for any reason.  In addition, all of the investigators would also have to have been in on the conspiracy with not one person in a position to know what actually happened willing to tell what he or she knew. I put such a scenario in the category of fantasy.

Lois

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Posted: 20 November 2013 06:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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CuthbertJ - 19 November 2013 10:52 AM

Again, I’m amazed at how such otherwise skeptical people such as yourselves can be utterly unskeptical and trusting of the official story. It’s as if no amount of evidence will shake your belief and faith in organizations like the CIA, the Pentagon, and the US government.  Amazing, and nutty.

Cuthbert a good skeptic always employs Occams Razor. “among competing hypotheses, the hypothesis with the fewest assumptions should be selected.”  That’s why most of us usually look askance at conspiracy theories. They generally require a long list of suppositions in order to be true and there is often a much simpler explanation that is better supported by the facts we actually have. Conspiracies often depend largely on the facts we don’t have in order to be believed.

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Posted: 20 November 2013 05:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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CuthbertJ - 19 November 2013 10:52 AM

Again, I’m amazed at how such otherwise skeptical people such as yourselves can be utterly unskeptical and trusting of the official story. It’s as if no amount of evidence will shake your belief and faith in organizations like the CIA, the Pentagon, and the US government.  Amazing, and nutty.


Look at the facts I listed.  None of them had anything to do with what any official government agency said.  They included:

Historical facts about Oswald
Repeatable shots
Finger/Palm Prints
Neutron Activation Analysis
Geometry
Ballistics
Forensics
Acoustics

Which ones do you disagree with?  And why?  Where is your evidence to the contrary?

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Posted: 21 November 2013 10:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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Lois - 20 November 2013 12:01 AM
CuthbertJ - 19 November 2013 10:52 AM

Again, I’m amazed at how such otherwise skeptical people such as yourselves can be utterly unskeptical and trusting of the official story. It’s as if no amount of evidence will shake your belief and faith in organizations like the CIA, the Pentagon, and the US government.  Amazing, and nutty.


Speaking for myself, I am skeptical of all conspiracy theories, especially those that would require the iintricate involvement and silence of many people.  It goes against human nature to stay silent for very long. All of those people in the CIA, the FBI, the Pentagon and other parts of the government, working in concert, and not one speaks up in 50 years? Many media sources would have paid hundreds of thousands of dollars or more for an interview with someone who was in on such a conspiracy and would spill the beans. All of the people who would have had to be involved are unlikely to turn away from large amounts of money and surely one of them would talk just out of guilt. Most of the supposed conspirators would now be dead and any one of them might have decided to record or write about his involvement to be revealed after his death, yet not one person had done so, not for money for his family, not for posthumous glory not to relieve himself of guilt. Those are the reasons I am skeptical about all conspiracy theories. They require too many people to act with faultless precision and nearly perfect timing and to keep complete silence for years. It goes against what we know about human nature and human abilities. To accept a conspiracy theory like that you would have to believe that not one credible person would break his silence for any reason.  In addition, all of the investigators would also have to have been in on the conspiracy with not one person in a position to know what actually happened willing to tell what he or she knew. I put such a scenario in the category of fantasy.

Lois

Again, you need to read Overthrow by Steve Kinzer, or The Shock Doctrine. The government IS very capable, especially the CIA, or carrying out highly coordinated plans without public knowledge. And witnesses and direct enablers do in fact speak out. But once the label of conspiracy is applied, they know they’re in the clear.  There are too many other sources of counter evidence. And of course, same goes for the unskeptics here who buy into the “government is innocent” theory. Any evidence presented now is prima faciea faulty, coerced, tainted, etc.  Here’s a start though for those who aren’t so naive:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamar_Waldron

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Posted: 21 November 2013 10:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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macgyver - 20 November 2013 06:28 AM
CuthbertJ - 19 November 2013 10:52 AM

Again, I’m amazed at how such otherwise skeptical people such as yourselves can be utterly unskeptical and trusting of the official story. It’s as if no amount of evidence will shake your belief and faith in organizations like the CIA, the Pentagon, and the US government.  Amazing, and nutty.

Cuthbert a good skeptic always employs Occams Razor. “among competing hypotheses, the hypothesis with the fewest assumptions should be selected.”  That’s why most of us usually look askance at conspiracy theories. They generally require a long list of suppositions in order to be true and there is often a much simpler explanation that is better supported by the facts we actually have. Conspiracies often depend largely on the facts we don’t have in order to be believed.

I agree, unfortunately that’s not always true in real life, non-scientific realms. Or better yet, what you consider an assumption may in fact not be. For example, many people assume the assassination attempt in Dallas was a lone event. In fact there were two others, with similar MO’s, one in Chicago foiled, one in Tampa foiled.  To assume the government is just some big dumb animal incapable of advanced coordination again, is beyond belief. What about the coordination of WW2, Vietnam, overthrow of several Latin American countries? Highly sophisticated coordination.

Now none of this proves anything, but it does cast complete doubt on the simplistic and “tidy” notion that there was one guy who carried it out.  Some folks just don’t want to believe in complicated, “not just one bad apple” scenarios. They’re scared to acknowledge what their government is capable of.  Which is also why I think you see so many folks glomming onto Snowden and Assange. Those two expose things for what they are.

[ Edited: 21 November 2013 10:56 AM by CuthbertJ ]
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Posted: 21 November 2013 11:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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CuthbertJ - 21 November 2013 10:44 AM
Lois - 20 November 2013 12:01 AM
CuthbertJ - 19 November 2013 10:52 AM

Again, I’m amazed at how such otherwise skeptical people such as yourselves can be utterly unskeptical and trusting of the official story. It’s as if no amount of evidence will shake your belief and faith in organizations like the CIA, the Pentagon, and the US government.  Amazing, and nutty.


Speaking for myself, I am skeptical of all conspiracy theories, especially those that would require the iintricate involvement and silence of many people.  It goes against human nature to stay silent for very long. All of those people in the CIA, the FBI, the Pentagon and other parts of the government, working in concert, and not one speaks up in 50 years? Many media sources would have paid hundreds of thousands of dollars or more for an interview with someone who was in on such a conspiracy and would spill the beans. All of the people who would have had to be involved are unlikely to turn away from large amounts of money and surely one of them would talk just out of guilt. Most of the supposed conspirators would now be dead and any one of them might have decided to record or write about his involvement to be revealed after his death, yet not one person had done so, not for money for his family, not for posthumous glory not to relieve himself of guilt. Those are the reasons I am skeptical about all conspiracy theories. They require too many people to act with faultless precision and nearly perfect timing and to keep complete silence for years. It goes against what we know about human nature and human abilities. To accept a conspiracy theory like that you would have to believe that not one credible person would break his silence for any reason.  In addition, all of the investigators would also have to have been in on the conspiracy with not one person in a position to know what actually happened willing to tell what he or she knew. I put such a scenario in the category of fantasy.

Lois

Again, you need to read Overthrow by Steve Kinzer, or The Shock Doctrine. The government IS very capable, especially the CIA, or carrying out highly coordinated plans without public knowledge. And witnesses and direct enablers do in fact speak out. But once the label of conspiracy is applied, they know they’re in the clear.  There are too many other sources of counter evidence. And of course, same goes for the unskeptics here who buy into the “government is innocent” theory. Any evidence presented now is prima faciea faulty, coerced, tainted, etc.  Here’s a start though for those who aren’t so naive:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamar_Waldron

 

Naivete is in the eye of the beholder.

Lois

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Posted: 21 November 2013 12:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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I think the same driving force inside most people to be religious or believe in a god is the same thing that drives some—but not all—conspiracy theories, and especially the myriad of Kennedy conspiracy theories.  A lone, angst-ridden, violent-tempered, extremist ideologue troubled young male with a gun in his hand and a chip on his shoulder like Oswald just doesn’t feel “satisfying” enough of an answer for the who and why behind something as big and as far-reaching as Kennedy’s death.  A large, hidden, well-orchestrated “something” with a grand plan and near god-like powers to pull off something so big, so important and keep themselves hidden from the public fits both the concept of god and any random Kennedy assassination conspiracy theory.  Not only does a conspiracy seem more “satisfying, but only a god could manipulate, control and counterfeit all the different sciences that points to Oswald and 3 shots.  Just how god planted all those dinosaur bones and manipulated the light from distant stars we see in our telescopes to try and fool us into believing in evolution and trick us into think the Earth is older than 6,000 years old. wink That, too is a conspiracy that only a god could pull off.

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Posted: 21 November 2013 12:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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CuthbertJ - 21 November 2013 10:50 AM

  To assume the government is just some big dumb animal incapable of advanced coordination again, is beyond belief. What about the coordination of WW2, Vietnam, overthrow of several Latin American countries? Highly sophisticated coordination.

Now none of this proves anything, but it does cast complete doubt on the simplistic and “tidy” notion that there was one guy who carried it out.  Some folks just don’t want to believe in complicated, “not just one bad apple” scenarios. They’re scared to acknowledge what their government is capable of.  Which is also why I think you see so many folks glomming onto Snowden and Assange. Those two expose things for what they are.

Ok so the government isn’t one big dumb animal. I agree.  Then what is it?
I can start by saying that the government is everything from a postal inspector, to a Senator, to a clerk in a regional IRS office, to a security guard at the Lincoln Memorial, to a part time census taker, to a mechanic in the Air Force etc etc…
It is “The People”!

So all of these types of people were in on the Kennedy assassination? That’s government!
Or are you talking about a specific group of people you are labeling “government”?
You don’t even know what government is! Yet you throw the word around like it has meaning.

I see you evaded Rocinante’s points. Just labeled them irrelevant…I was hoping you would have addressed those.

So tell me what secret government cabal was in on the assassination of JFK.  And why?
Once that took place would those individuals really be “government” anymore?  No!  Not by definition.

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Posted: 21 November 2013 06:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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CuthbertJ - 21 November 2013 10:50 AM

For example, many people assume the assassination attempt in Dallas was a lone event. In fact there were two others, with similar MO’s, one in Chicago foiled, one in Tampa foiled.

What?  Someone wanted to try and kill a President of the United States? I’m shocked!  That’s never happened before or since.  Oh wait:

Successful assassinations
Abraham Lincoln
James A. Garfield
William McKinley
John F. Kennedy

Failed assassination attempts
Andrew Jackson
Abraham Lincoln
Theodore Roosevelt
Herbert Hoover
Franklin D. Roosevelt
Harry S Truman
John F. Kennedy
Richard Nixon
Gerald Ford
Jimmy Carter
Ronald Reagan
George H. W. Bush
Bill Clinton
George W. Bush
Barack Obama

Source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_presidential_assassination_attempts_and_plots

CuthbertJ - 21 November 2013 10:50 AM

Now none of this proves anything…

I agree.

CuthbertJ - 21 November 2013 10:50 AM

but it does cast complete doubt on the simplistic and “tidy” notion that there was one guy who carried it out.

No it doesn’t.  Each individual event has to be judged on its own with evidence and facts that relate to each event.  Neither conspiracy to kill nor individual lone gunman plots require a paradigm shift in how we view the world.  Each is possible.  Each has happened in the past.  So when something like this does happen, we must weigh the evidence for that event, not just say since conspiracies and/or lone gunmans happened in the past, it must be one of those.  We have to go where the evidence leads us.  And in this case, all the evidence points to Oswald firing 3 shots from his rifle from the 6th floor of the TSBD—a building he was, undoubtedly, in that exact day at that exact time.  There is NO evidence to the contrary.  It’s as simple as that. 

CuthbertJ - 21 November 2013 10:50 AM

Some folks just don’t want to believe in complicated, “not just one bad apple” scenarios. They’re scared to acknowledge what their government is capable of.

I agree the government is bad.  I don’t trust the government.  I agree the government can, has, and will continue to do bad things.  But that doesn’t mean the government is therefore automatically responsible for every bad event.  Individuals can do bad things too. 

I accept Oswald as the lone gunman not because of anything the government says.  I accept it due to all the objective facts and evidence.  Facts and evidence that no one, not even the government, can manipulate or change.  In this case, the government just so happens to be on the right side in their conclusion.  Even a broken clock is right twice a day. grin

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Posted: 22 November 2013 05:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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And while we’re on the subject… today marks the fiftieth anniversary of his assassination. I do agree with Roci that evidence clearly shows that Oswald was the only assassin. No government could keep a lid on contrary evidence for that long and not have a leak somewhere. And If it happened today a thousand cell phones would have caught the action, not to mention survaillance cameras on every light pole. No room for conspiracy theories in this age, except for the tin foil hat guys.
So, just a musing on a personal milestone, a “where we’re you when” post especially for the over 50 crowd. I was 15, a freshman sitting in French class listening to the teacher droning on about the conjugation of verbs in her lisping accent when the principal announced that the President had been killed. We were stunned, some girls teared up , the teacher sat down and just stared at us. We stared back, and sat there until the dismissal bell rang. Remember that we had also witnessed the Cuban Missle crises the October before and we all wondered if this was the end of the World. Everybody blamed the Russians. Then we watched Ruby shoot Oswald live on TV, at least I remember it as being live. Another shocker. Killing Kennedy changed our World; it made it more unstable. This was the guy that put us on the moon and now he’s dead. Now this generation has to cope with Columbine, Newtown, the Boston bombing, Aurora, ... . Makes you wonder about the next fifty years.


Cap’t Jack

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Posted: 22 November 2013 11:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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I provided a link to an author who has evidence that contradicts the official story. Part of that evidence includes the fact that while Oswald did work there, he was not on the 6th floor at the time, and was in fact, as testified by two witnesses, in the cafeteria waiting for a phone call about him getting called into an operation in Mexico (he *was* a shady commando wannabe afterall). Other witnesses stated he was not seen in the stairways down either, at the time when he was supposed to be exiting the 6th floor.  The same author, based on evidence released recently I think, indicated that the southern mod boss Marcello admitted while in prison, during a conversion to an FBI plant who was NOT asking about it, Marcello said to the effect “I had kennedy killed, but now I wish I had done the job myself”.  Now I know exactly what the response to this will be…a long list of why that can’t be, why it’s just CT crap, etc. Oh well.

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Posted: 22 November 2013 12:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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CuthbertJ - 22 November 2013 11:10 AM

I provided a link to an author who has evidence that contradicts the official story. Part of that evidence includes the fact that while Oswald did work there, he was not on the 6th floor at the time, and was in fact, as testified by two witnesses, in the cafeteria waiting for a phone call about him getting called into an operation in Mexico (he *was* a shady commando wannabe afterall). Other witnesses stated he was not seen in the stairways down either, at the time when he was supposed to be exiting the 6th floor.  The same author, based on evidence released recently I think, indicated that the southern mod boss Marcello admitted while in prison, during a conversion to an FBI plant who was NOT asking about it, Marcello said to the effect “I had kennedy killed, but now I wish I had done the job myself”.  Now I know exactly what the response to this will be…a long list of why that can’t be, why it’s just CT crap, etc. Oh well.

None of this is evidence Cuthbert. Its just a lot of hearsay written by someone who wanted to sell a book. If your book says the standard theory is true it doesnt sell as many copies as it would if you claim its all a big conspiracy. As far as the mob boss in prison claiming he did it, is this really a surprise. Criminals are as likely to brag about things they didnt do as they are to deny the things they did do. no surprises there and certainly not proof of anything.

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