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Theoretical question for those debating vitamins, supplements, etc
Posted: 29 November 2013 10:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
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Still seems as bad as medicine in the 1800’s (would you use chloroform to sedate a patient in surgery today?  I suspect not) and I suspect, in the 22 or 23 century we’ll look back on medicine in the late 20th and early 21st century and like Bones, say, “Mediaevalism here” and “My God, is this the Dark Ages?”  We haven’t even gotten past drilling holes in people’s heads to relieve pressure on the brain, esp in cases of brain injuries (not saying it’s wrong or right, because it’s all we have for now, but it is still quite primitive medicine, IMO).  The same thing you all are saying about previous centuries’ medicine, will probably be said of today’s medicine in the future.  This doesn’t mean today’s medicine is good or bad, it’s just saying tomorrow we may place today’s medicine in the same category as yesterday’s medicine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMaGnpVaSGQ

It wouldn’t surprise me at all, given communicators/cell phones, PADDS/IPads, food dispensers/microwaves, etc I do believe we are still in the Dark Ages of medicine and still have a long ways to go, despite improvements, esp and including childbirth (My younger son was born in 1991 and no less then 30 or 40 years prior, we both had a greater chance of dying from H.E.L.L.P. Syndrome, than we did in the 1990s).  It is quite possible that Botox will be yesterday’s medicine, just as Willow Bark and chloroform are.  Without questioning, I don’t think we would have made the progress in medicine that we have today and I think we should always continue to question, because (Science Fiction aside) I think we can do better than subject ourselves to Botox, chemo (a poison also), radiation (a known cause of cancer), and invasive surgery (which we’ve made some progress with).  However, I do thank the doctors for chopping off my mother’s breast (just one) and giving her radiation to treat her stage 3 breast cancer earlier this century, thereby allowing her to live 14 years and beyond, thus surviving cancer, as well as treating her Grave’s Disease in the 70s, with radioactive iodine, but I do think we can do better than these techniques… eventually, esp if we don’t stop questioning.

So the questions aren’t so much concerning the poisons we allow drs to put into our bodies as much as it is, “Isn’t there anything better yet?  Isn’t there new science on this yet? Why is our medicine still primitive in some respects?”  IF we don’t ask such questions and push medical science to do better, then we may be in the Dark Ages still in the next century and, IMO, Botox and chemo isn’t much better than Willow Bark and chloroform, just a different century, but unfortunately, it’s all we have for now, just as the medicine of yesterday is being criticized today- it was all they had and knew also, which at the time was neither good or bad either, but people still questioned it and if they had not, I don’t think we have gotten as far as we have today, but what we have today could be improved greatly, I think. Botox, chemo, radiation, and alike should not be the end all and be all of medicine and it doesn’t hurt to keep a doctor on his toes in an effort to keep up with science.  Some doctors do get lazy and don’t keep up with new findings.

Not only that, many a woman with a lump in her breast, has died because of a doctor telling her something similar to, “There, there.  Let me worry about that lump, because I know what is best for you.”  Any time a doctor takes on such attitudes, it’s time to get a second opinion, if not a different doctor.

You wouldn’t expect your architect to discuss load bearing with you before he designs your house.

My grandfather, uncle, and others were carpenters, electricians, etc, who taught me a few things about building a house, so yes, I would, esp if I thought it was wrong.  I have even been told by some carpenters, I see things that most other people do not see.

[ Edited: 29 November 2013 11:03 AM by Mriana ]
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Posted: 29 November 2013 11:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
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Mriana EVERYTHING we have is more “primitive” than what the future will bring and more advanced than what the past had available. That’s true of phones, TV’s, computers, farming techniques, building techniques , materials science, and medicine as well as nearly every other human endeavor. I’m not really sure what your point is. You’re frustrated because tomorrow isn’t here today? Your frustrated because you think medical science is sitting on its laurels and has gotten lazy? If thats the case there are tens of thousands of researchers who would argue strongly with you on that point. Your showing a lack of understanding of the complexity of the problems involved in medicine and the incredible advances that have been made. I really don’t get your point.

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Posted: 29 November 2013 12:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
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macgyver - 29 November 2013 11:03 AM

Mriana EVERYTHING we have is more “primitive” than what the future will bring and more advanced than what the past had available. That’s true of phones, TV’s, computers, farming techniques, building techniques , materials science, and medicine as well as nearly every other human endeavor. I’m not really sure what your point is. You’re frustrated because tomorrow isn’t here today? Your frustrated because you think medical science is sitting on its laurels and has gotten lazy? If thats the case there are tens of thousands of researchers who would argue strongly with you on that point. I really don’t get your point.

Yes and no.  It just seems to me, that too many people here discredit folk/alternative medicine, when much of past medicine helped to get us to where we are today.  Not only that, in some cases, such as aspirin, we are still using some of those things, mostly in synthetic form and wouldn’t dare trust anyone, in a state of an emergency, with no access to modern medicine, concerning willow bark tea.  I posed the same question to my older son, who incidentally graduated recently from a massage therapy school, and his answers was quite different those here. Not only that, you indirectly criticised the Mayo Clinic link I use, calling it misinformation.  Funny.  I thought the Mayo Clinic was a reliable source.  I’ll be sure not to do any research and let my doctor do all the thinking for me, as she worries about potential cancer for me, without questioning her about it or even potential improvements in modern medicine.  Yeah.  If no one thought outside the box, then I seriously doubt humans would have survived this long or made this many advancements or even survived living in the wilderness of the Plymouth or even 19th century western territories of the U.S. if doctors think outside the box and didn’t even try some of the Indian medicine, which in some cases, also contributed to modern medicine.  It’s not that ALL “folk remedies” are necessarily bad, but many of us just don’t know how make and use it any more, due to more advance technology in making synthetic forms of it and even in the past, most common folks didn’t know how to make it.  We left that to doctors, mid-wives, and whatever the name was for ancient pharmacists, even in Shakespeare’s day.  Ironically, my grandmother, who lived in an area they now often air-vac patients to the city, due to being so far out from civilization, grew aloe vera and quite often used it my wounds as well as my step cousin who got cut on bared wire (IMO, needing stitches due to how deep it was), when I was a child staying with her during the summer, with some amazing results.  However, when my younger son got a cut on his knee so deep you could see those white deals (much like my step cousin), for which the name slips my mind, I ran him to the ER for treatment and stitches, not used aloe vera, but we also live in the city, with no need to use such things, BUT if it or similar had happened in the area my grandmother lived, which is still far away from the nearest hospital and medical facility (yes, such places still exist) and I had access to aloe vera or alike, I wouldn’t be beyond using such a thing in a medical emergency until I could him to a medical facility.  Notice, I said, until I could get him to a medical facility.  Unlike my grandmother and other adults I grew up with, I wouldn’t leave it to just the aloe vera to do it’s thing.  I would get the person to a medical facility too, informing the doctor of how I treated before we arrived or before an air-vac got there.  Aloe vera, on wounds, is a very harmless folk remedy and actually not bad “in a pinch”, esp if one was taught, like I was, how to put it on wounds, but I wouldn’t recommend it as the sole treatment of a wound needing stitches (as in what happened with my step cousin) by an actual doctor.  He did alright though, without stitches or a real doctor, but it’s not something I would do my children or grandchildren with such a wound.

There is my frustration and it seems to me, few people ever lived in an area where, to this day, people are often air-vac to the nearest medical facility approximately 200 miles away.  I often spent my summer in such a place, right here in MO, and that place is still just sparsely populated and as bad medical wise, thus, I have often pondered if I would try to use some of the stuff my grandmother and great grandmother taught me, if faced in such a situation, until modern medicine arrived to help.  The answer is both yes and no, depending if I had a high level of confidence, such as with aloe vera (yes) or a low level in the case of willow bark (no, maybe).  Aloe vera on a wound won’t hurt you or interfere with modern meds, but getting willow bark wrong (and no you can’t confuse it with water hemlock, unless you’re a complete moron) could, as well as interfere with modern meds.  Even so, I do not believe all “folk remedies” are necessarily bad, esp those like aloe vera, but I would not use it as my only Tx, esp when medical treatment is warranted.  However, by the time they got my cousin to the nearest medical facility (4-5 hours away, via car at 55-60 mph), it could have very well been too late for stitches and my grandmother felt aloe vera was the best option for my step cousin’s gaping long wound on his leg from bared wire.  Aloe vera, until you can get to a medical facility miles away, isn’t going to harm you one bit and might potentially help, esp if you clean the wound before applying it.

So, maybe, instead of foo-fooing ALL such remedies, it might not hurt to think outside the box and consider potential exceptions, such as that I mentioned concerning my step-cousin, which actually still exist today.  As I said, yesterday and today’s medicine is neither good nor bad, but it is what we have/had at this/the time and sometimes, yesterday’s “folk medicine” is still all we have at the time even in the late 20th century and today.  Then again, maybe it’s all in what we grew up with that we base our choices today, but personally, if I’m far away from a medical facility and need medical treatment, depending on the seriousness, I would at least consider (not necessarily accept it, keeping an open-mind) a folk remedy until I got to the nearest medical facility.  I certainly wouldn’t allow such a deep wound to get infected and continue bleeding profusely, that is for sure, and if I knew something about the suggested folk remedy, I wouldn’t close my mind to it, but then again, I grew up with BOTH folk medicine and modern medicine.  I feel I’ve had and do have the best of both worlds (yesterday and today).

Therein lies my frustration with what some are saying here, closing their minds to possible situations in which a folk remedy might be all you have, in which to survive or deal with a medical situation, until you get to a modern medical facility. I’m grateful the elders in my family accepted both and taught me some things about folk medicine, because it could come in handy.

BTW, it was pure aloe vera, directly from the plant, none of this bottled stuff some see today in stores.

[ Edited: 29 November 2013 12:35 PM by Mriana ]
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Posted: 29 November 2013 02:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
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Mriana I hung in here hoping I could bring some logic to this discussion but I don’t see that as a possibility anymore. I have answered your points previously in my responses and you keep writing as though you haven’t read anything I’ve written or have read only what you want to. I don’t think I have anything more to add here.

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Posted: 29 November 2013 06:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
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So bringing logic to the conversation means I must agree with everything you say about the matter or nothing is logical?  Interesting.

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Posted: 29 November 2013 10:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
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Mriana - 29 November 2013 06:35 PM

So bringing logic to the conversation means I must agree with everything you say about the matter or nothing is logical?  Interesting.

He’s not asking you to agree with him, he’s asking you to read and think about his responses. I have to agree with him, it doesn’t seem like you have done that. Instead you have leapt from anecdote to gross misunderstanding. It is clear from your responses that you understand little about medicine or human biological processes. I’m sure this conversation has to be just as frustrating to you, as it is to him, and to me….and I am just reading.

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Posted: 29 November 2013 10:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
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....and yes, they still use chloroform for sedation in some minor medical procedures. It is a purer form and can be more tightly titrated than it could be in the past.

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Posted: 30 November 2013 05:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
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Mriana - 29 November 2013 06:35 PM

So bringing logic to the conversation means I must agree with everything you say about the matter or nothing is logical?  Interesting.

Of course not Mriana. Like Asanta said it just seems like you either haven’t read my posts or just don’t care to address my points even though I have gone to great pains to address each of yours. McKenzie said the same in his last post. If we don’t address and build on each others points then the thread goes no where

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Posted: 30 November 2013 08:17 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
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Mriana, it’s like the Borg.  Resistance is futile!
It’s like one mind. grin

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Posted: 01 December 2013 11:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
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VYAZMA - 30 November 2013 08:17 AM

Mriana, it’s like the Borg.  Resistance is futile!
It’s like one mind. grin

LOL  Never liked the Borg, because they didn’t allow people to think for themselves or to question anything.  Almost as bad as Fundamngelicalism, if not as bad.

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Posted: 01 December 2013 01:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]
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Mriana - 01 December 2013 11:23 AM
VYAZMA - 30 November 2013 08:17 AM

Mriana, it’s like the Borg.  Resistance is futile!
It’s like one mind. grin

LOL  Never liked the Borg, because they didn’t allow people to think for themselves or to question anything.  Almost as bad as Fundamngelicalism, if not as bad.

Once again the two of you fail to understand the arguments. Our disagreement with you is not that you disagree with me or asanta or McKenzi, its that you don’t address our points. At least if we assimilated you your thoughts might be more organized..turns to face you with that blank Borg expression as he extends his assimilation tubules and inserts them into your neck. resistance truly is futile for both of you tongue wink

[ Edited: 01 December 2013 01:15 PM by macgyver ]
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Posted: 01 December 2013 03:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]
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I’m ashamed of you, Vyazma and Mriana.  Surely you have to recogmize that Mckenzie and Macgyver have authority on their side.  LOL

Occam

(Hmmm, didn’t I see a similar approach by Lily?)

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Posted: 01 December 2013 04:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]
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Occam. - 01 December 2013 03:15 PM

I’m ashamed of you, Vyazma and Mriana.  Surely you have to recogmize that Mckenzie and Macgyver have authority on their side.  LOL

Occam

(Hmmm, didn’t I see a similar approach by Lily?)

LOL  Thanks for the laugh, Occam.  smile

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Posted: 01 December 2013 05:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]
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And I’m embarrased for you, Occam. Surely you recognize that no one is commiting an appeal to authority fallacy here. Acknowledging that there is such a thing as expertise and specialized knowledge and that an hour on Google doesn’t replace thoughtful consultation with someone who has such expertise is not tantamount to claiming expert opinion as definitive evidence.

The real problem is that detailed, thoughtful arguments are put forward which are not responded to or rebutted but simply ignored. Mriana has repeatedly challenged me to defend positions I’ve never taken, and you and VYAZMA haven’t even tried to respond with any substance in this thread, just cute little quips. If this is the best quality discussion we, as mods on a forum dedicated to skepticism and rationalism, are capable of here, it doesn’t give one much hope for the value of this kind of public discussion forum. No wonder Popular Science magazine gave up on its public comment forum, with the following rationale:

A politically motivated, decades-long war on expertise has eroded the popular consensus on a wide variety of scientifically validated topics. Everything, from evolution to the origins of climate change, is mistakenly up for grabs again. Scientific certainty is just another thing for two people to “debate” on television. And because comments sections tend to be a grotesque reflection of the media culture surrounding them, the cynical work of undermining bedrock scientific doctrine is now being done beneath our own stories, within a website devoted to championing science.

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Posted: 01 December 2013 06:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]
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Well, McK, I get a kick out of your frequent flaunting of expertise.  Just because I have a PhD in biochemistry doesn’t mean I can claim to outrank you and Macgyver. (I do recall biochem graduate students laughing at medical residents {and that would, I think, include DMVs,} who thought they were experts in chemistry.) While you do post references to published data, I’ve seen research results tilting in a different direction.  However, the whole area is of low enough interest to me that I’m not going to bother digging them up or even enter into the discussion.

Occam

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