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Two huge flaws in the CFI worldview
Posted: 27 November 2013 12:00 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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macgyver - 26 November 2013 08:39 PM
rightbrainguy - 26 November 2013 06:22 PM

I refer you to the 2008 TED talk of neuro-anatomist Jill Bolte Taylor, and my YouTube video “Zen for Everybody” for starters.

Um, you don’t get to come in and ask us to do the work to make your point for you. Make your own case and we will decide if it’s worth our time

It isn’t.

Lois

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Posted: 27 November 2013 03:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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rightbrainguy - 26 November 2013 06:53 PM

Not gonna happen. Do your homework. Consult sources. (It is at least a little bit complicated.)

And BTW, Douglas Adams was a humorist, not a scientist, AT ALL. (But I LOVE A Hitchhiker’s Guide….)[/quote

I forgot you can do this:

Jill Bolte Taylor:

http://www.ted.com/talks/jill_bolte_taylor_s_powerful_stroke_of_insight.html

Me

http://youtu.be/IEbiV00Z1zE

TAKE IT OR LEAVE IT.

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Posted: 27 November 2013 05:34 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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That isn’t how we interact around here. saying-goodbye-smiley-emoticon.gif

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Posted: 27 November 2013 06:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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I am still hoping to have a serious discussion with some one (a) about the function of the right hemisphere in consciousness, and (b) about the role of trauma in the history of forming symbols of ultimate values.

I have not found anybody yet.

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Posted: 27 November 2013 08:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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rightbrainguy - 27 November 2013 06:45 AM

I am still hoping to have a serious discussion with some one (a) about the function of the right hemisphere in consciousness, and (b) about the role of trauma in the history of forming symbols of ultimate values.

I have not found anybody yet.

In order to engage anyone here at the very least you are going to need to organize your thoughts and present some sort of logical idea or thesis. All you have done so far is make vague disorganized claims and then asked everyone else to go research them. I don’t think you are going to get many takers with that approach.

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Posted: 27 November 2013 09:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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rightbrainguy - 27 November 2013 06:45 AM

I am still hoping to have a serious discussion with some one (a) about the function of the right hemisphere in consciousness, and (b) about the role of trauma in the history of forming symbols of ultimate values.

Well, it’s yours for the discussing. 

rightbrainguy - 27 November 2013 06:45 AM

I have not found anybody yet.

Imagine for a moment… it might have something to do with your approach.
I know when I want to tell people something -> it’s best to say it… even if they don’t like it or ignore it, at least I’ve given it my best effort.


signed,
still trying to figure out what you want us to know

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Posted: 27 November 2013 03:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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rightbrainguy - 26 November 2013 06:53 PM

Not gonna happen. Do your homework. Consult sources. (It is at least a little bit complicated.)

And BTW, Douglas Adams was a humorist, not a scientist, AT ALL. (But I LOVE A Hitchhiker’s Guide….)

No you do yours.  We are not a class of undergraduates in a required class that has to put up with a lazy professor in order to graduate.

If you don’t want to present your arguments don’t expect us to look into an area that doesn’t interest us. We each have our areas of interests and if you want us to look into yours give us a reason.  How will your per project improve the world;  how will it address social and economic inequality; how will it address certain groups of humans attempts to impose their narrow provincial/religious outlooks on others as all fundies do?

You need to sell the value of your position to us.  That is your homework.

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All the Gods and all religions are created by humans, to meet human needs and accomplish human ends.

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Posted: 27 November 2013 05:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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rightbrainguy - 27 November 2013 06:45 AM

I am still hoping to have a serious discussion with some one (a) about the function of the right hemisphere in consciousness, and (b) about the role of trauma in the history of forming symbols of ultimate values.

I have not found anybody yet.

You won’t find anyone here. You apparently are not used to interacting with intelligent skeptics.

Sorry,  but you blew any chance you might have had to have a serious discussion here.

Lois

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Posted: 29 November 2013 08:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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On brain hemispheres:

The neuroscience of introspection seems to be that it is conducted by the right hemisphere of the brain. “The right hemisphere thinks in pictures and learns kinesthetically.” (Jill Bolte Taylor)

“The first appreciation of anything comes to us via the right hemisphere, and the ultimate understanding of it in context does so also. Some very subtle research by David McNeill, amongst others, confirms that thought originates in the right hemisphere, is processed for expression in speech by the left hemisphere, and the meaning integrated again by the right (which alone understands the overall meaning of a complex utterance, taking everything into account). More generally I would see the left hemisphere as having an intermediate role: it ‘unpacks’ what the right hemisphere knows, but then must hand it back to the right hemisphere for integration into the body of our knowledge and experience.”  (McGilchrist, The Master and His Emissary.)

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Posted: 30 November 2013 03:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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rightbrainguy - 29 November 2013 08:59 PM

On brain hemispheres:

The neuroscience of introspection seems to be that it is conducted by the right hemisphere of the brain. “The right hemisphere thinks in pictures and learns kinesthetically.” (Jill Bolte Taylor)

“The first appreciation of anything comes to us via the right hemisphere, and the ultimate understanding of it in context does so also. Some very subtle research by David McNeill, amongst others, confirms that thought originates in the right hemisphere, is processed for expression in speech by the left hemisphere, and the meaning integrated again by the right (which alone understands the overall meaning of a complex utterance, taking everything into account). More generally I would see the left hemisphere as having an intermediate role: it ‘unpacks’ what the right hemisphere knows, but then must hand it back to the right hemisphere for integration into the body of our knowledge and experience.”  (McGilchrist, The Master and His Emissary.)

Notwithstanding Jill Bolte Taylor’s entertaining talk in TED about her personal experience of her stroke, apparently, the latest finding is, it is not quite so simply so.

From http://www.livescience.com/39373-left-brain-right-brain-myth.html

There is a misconception that everything to do with being analytical is confined to one side of the brain, and everything to do with being creative is confined to the opposite side, Anderson said. In fact, it is the connections among all brain regions that enable humans to engage in both creativity and analytical thinking.

“It is not the case that the left hemisphere is associated with logic or reasoning more than the right,” Anderson told LiveScience. “Also, creativity is no more processed in the right hemisphere than the left.”

And from http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/16/left-right-brain-distinction-myth

From self-help and business success books to job applications and smartphone apps, the theory that the different halves of the human brain govern different skills and personality traits is a popular one. No doubt at some point in your life you’ve been schooled on “left-brained” and “right-brained” thinking – that people who use the right side of their brains most are more creative, spontaneous and subjective, while those who tap the left side more are more logical, detail-oriented and analytical.

Too bad it’s not true.

In reality:

What research has yet to refute is the fact that the brain is remarkably malleable, even into late adulthood. It has an amazing ability to reorganize itself by forming new connections between brain cells, allowing us to continually learn new things and modify our behavior. Let’s not underestimate our potential by allowing a simplistic myth to obscure the complexity of how our brains really work.

Bold added by me.

Also, from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lateralization_of_brain_function

Broad generalizations are often made in popular psychology about one side or the other having characteristic labels, such as “logical” for the left side or “creative” for the right. These labels are not supported by studies on lateralization, as lateralization does not add specialized usage from either hemisphere. Both hemispheres contribute to both kinds of processes. and experimental evidence provides little support for correlating the structural differences between the sides with such broadly-defined functional differences.

So, from a holistic perspective, both hemispheres of the brain are necessary for creativity and logical thinking.

Q.E.D.?  cheese

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Posted: 30 November 2013 06:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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We’ve removed entire hemispheres of small children’s brains, and have done surgeries to remove the corpus callosum…usually to stop seizures. The children form new neural connections and learn to control their body using the remaining brain. Of course there are deficits, at least in the beginning, I don’t know how much improvement there is after they go home, but the deficits don’t follow any left/right brain pattern.

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Posted: 01 December 2013 06:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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So, what is Voegelin talking about in Order and History?

“[Human] experience has a dead point from which the symbols [of ultimate values] emerge as the exegesis of its truth but which cannot become itself an object of propositional knowledge. …... Unless precautions of meditative practice are taken, the doctrinization of symbols is liable to interrupt the process of experiential reactivation and linguistic renewal.”

Eric Voegelin, Order and History, Vol IV, p. 105:

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Posted: 01 December 2013 08:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
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The fMRI data detects “activity” but not the kind of activity. So it doesn’t really tell us what is doing what in the brain.
And it certainly does not discredit Taylor and MCGilchrist wholesale.

Then I notice that Buddhists have always distinguished between “thinking” and awareness. This could be a hemisphere issue.

“Thinking is one of the main difficulties we encounter while learning to meditate. Most of us have lived so much of our lives in our heads that it comes as a beautiful gift to be fully aware of the vividness of internal sensations and stimuli from the external world as they impact the senses. The early Buddhist texts make a clear distinction between two principal kinds of thought. The first type of thought is called vitakka-vicâra (directed thought (vitakka) and evaluation (vicâra).) Another very different kind of thinking is papañca,  “proliferation”.  It is obsessive thought, strings of associations that run on and on, fantasy and concept formation that lead the mind away from things just as they are experienced.  Papañca is the monkey mind of Zen imagery.

The state that is the final goal of Buddhism is beyond language, but Buddhist texts say that the careful, clear use of language - Right Speech - is indispensable along the way. Takuan’s “sound of no sound” will not be lost through a meditative investigation into the nature of thought. In fact, learning to understand the origin of those many voices which vibrate within the ear leads us back to it.”

So, introspection raises the issue of hemisphere usage. But introspection also raises the issue of trauma imprints. So I think I will start a separate topic of introspection.

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Posted: 01 December 2013 10:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
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Hmmm, the left brain, right brain myth?
Did a little hunting around for something simple on this topic and found this decent little video and a whole lot of links to further informative sources:

Do We Have Left or Right Brain Personalities?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yE6VTvxkhFs

Published on Aug 18, 2013
Is it true that some people are more ‘right brained’ or ‘left brained?’ Certainly some people are more creative and free-thinking, while others are more logic oriented. But is this really a result of one side of the brain being more dominant than the other?

Read More
(with a dozen links to authoritative sources of information on this topic):


Brain Mythology
http://www.positscience.com/brain-resources/brain-facts-myths/brain-mythology
“Some myths are based on a modicum of truth; others arise from misinterpretations or from a need for a great sound bite.”

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Posted: 01 December 2013 05:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
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rightbrainguy - 01 December 2013 06:50 AM

So, what is Voegelin talking about in Order and History?

“[Human] experience has a dead point from which the symbols [of ultimate values] emerge as the exegesis of its truth but which cannot become itself an object of propositional knowledge. …... Unless precautions of meditative practice are taken, the doctrinization of symbols is liable to interrupt the process of experiential reactivation and linguistic renewal.”

Eric Voegelin, Order and History, Vol IV, p. 105:

Gibberish?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibberish

Gibberish is a generic term in English for talking that sounds like speech, but carries no actual meaning. This meaning has also been extended to meaningless text or gobbledygook. The common theme in gibberish statements is a lack of literal sense, which can be described as a presence of nonsense.

Bold added by me.

LOL

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