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Two huge flaws in the CFI worldview
Posted: 01 December 2013 06:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
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Consider Taoist meditation?

From http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sat-hon/a-field-guide-to-taoist-m_b_875634.html

Taoist meditation is action without aim. It is an aimless, meandering meditation without technique or prefabricated notion—fishing without a hook. In Taoism, the very nature of this existence is considered a total meditation of the cosmos. Yet, my clinging mind needs something concrete, steps and the knowhow. Thus, began my foray into the wide horizon of meditation.

However, from http://www.tao.org/mind.html

Mind:

When the mind is overworked without stop,
it becomes worried, and worry causes exhaustion. — Chuang Tzu

Philosophy:

While Taoist philosophical principles can help the rational individual find his way out of confusion’s fog, it needs a practical means to fight off competing unhealthy thoughts instilled since birth and reinforced each day on television. Taoist principles may make logical sense, but the modern mind must battle emotions born of years following countervailing beliefs. Such ingrained patterns dog the mind with thoughts that disturb one’s mental state, causing it to run amok.

Meditation:

Discipline is key. It isn’t entertaining to sit in place for hours, forcing the mind to focus on specific images while preventing it from wandering to some other, competing thoughts. Indeed, meditation is focused visualization — and it is most definitely work.

An expert has made all the mistakes and learn from them after at least 10,000 hours of practice.

LOL

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Posted: 02 December 2013 05:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
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Ah, so. Is there a taboo on introspection in CFI culture?

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Posted: 02 December 2013 11:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
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rightbrainguy - 02 December 2013 05:32 AM


Ah, so. Is there a taboo on introspection in CFI culture?

This is the modern version of the Inquisition. No more torture or banishment, just ridicule. You don’t actually have an argument, you just claim that the other guy doesn’t and offer that as proof of… something… we don’t really know. If you are hosting guests or in a public situation where enough people agree with you, it can be effective in at least silencing your opposition. In a discussion group with intelligent people, it’s just silly.

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Posted: 02 December 2013 02:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
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rightbrainguy - 02 December 2013 05:32 AM


Ah, so. Is there a taboo on introspection in CFI culture?

Ah, not so.

However, from http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/taoism/beliefs/gods.shtml

In Taoism the universe springs from the Tao, and the Tao impersonally guides things on their way.

But the Tao itself is not God, nor is it a god, nor is it worshipped by Taoists.

So, what is the Tao?

From http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/taoism/beliefs/tao.shtml

1.

The Tao is not a thing

2.

The Tao includes several concepts in one word:

  * the source of creation
  * the ultimate
  * the inexpressible and indefinable
  * the unnameable
  * the natural universe as a whole
  * the way of nature as a whole

So,

There was something undifferentiated and yet complete,
Which existed before Heaven and Earth.
Soundless and formless it depends on nothing and does not change.

Tao Te Ching

smile

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Posted: 02 December 2013 05:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
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So, yes. That is good. I am familiar with that. It is one of what I would call a “family” of secular verbal renditions of “ultimate reality”. However, as only one of such renditions, it can be supplemented by others, equally authentic, that emphasize different aspects of the human situation. Daoism’s complete detachment might be compared to Buddhism’s concern with behavior and interpersonal relationships (compassion, desirelessness). And so, one enters into a world of inquiry that is not actually “thinking”. All of this language arises from Voegelin’s “dead point”. (This is “experience”, and the resulting language is “doctrine”.)

So, I think it is a useful “inquiry matrix” to look into this family of experiences. They seem to be basic and essential to the complete human experience.

Religion of course is an entirely different problem. It is, generally, doctrine divorced from authentic experience, but twisted and roiled by intervening experiences, the anxieties of particular cultural situations. E.g., the cathedrals and the Eucharist of medieval Europe being a masterful psychotropic mechanism designed to help that population recover from pandemic trauma. And, once recovery progresses, they shift gradually from being psychotropic devices to being museums (or fire stations, as in my neighborhood), and the like.

So, the contemporary issue always is, the recovery of said ultimate experience (and the recovery from trauma).

[ Edited: 02 December 2013 05:17 PM by rightbrainguy ]
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Posted: 02 December 2013 05:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
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rightbrainguy - 02 December 2013 05:06 PM

So, I think it is a useful “inquiry matrix” to look into this family of experiences. They seem to be basic and essential to the complete human experience.

And yet you ignore thoughts expressed here and continue to repeat your skeleton of a belief system.

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Posted: 04 December 2013 07:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
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Mapping CFI culture, investigating which ideas/experiences are acceptable/non-acceptable, to see if this is a place where I want to spend any time.

My key question is about self-inquiry. Voegelin’s “experience…which cannot become itself an object of propositional knowledge…” seems to be unacceptable. Yet V claims that across cultures and across centuries this experience is the source from which “the symbols of ultimate values emerge as the exegesis of its truth”. In taking this position V seems to agree with Daoist discipline, Buddhist “make friends with yourself”, and Buddhist “cease the chatter of the mind”. So, this kind of self-inquiry seems to be unacceptable in CFI culture.

Also, on the issue of religion being the sedative use of doctrine (without the aforementioned experience) that fits into the historic process of recovery from trauma, this seems to be unacceptable.

In this frame of reference, “secular” and “humanist” would seem to be synonymous with “recovered from trauma”, and “religious” would seem to be synonymous with “suffering from serious PTSD”.  (The crusaders were the jihadists of a former age.) Religious violence would be related to fear of losing one’s fix. The intensely orthodox believer would be a kind of junkie.

“Reason” seems to be trickier. It seems to be purely “thinking”, versus “meditation”, which includes “to be fully aware of the vividness of internal sensations and stimuli from the external world as they impact the senses.” [And there are distinctly possible left-brain, right-brain correlations.]

I am a self-inquiring meditator. Do I belong here?

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Posted: 04 December 2013 08:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
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rightbrainguy - 04 December 2013 07:56 AM

Also, on the issue of religion being the sedative use of doctrine (without the aforementioned experience) that fits into the historic process of recovery from trauma, this seems to be unacceptable.

In this frame of reference, “secular” and “humanist” would seem to be synonymous with “recovered from trauma”, and “religious” would seem to be synonymous with “suffering from serious PTSD”.  (The crusaders were the jihadists of a former age.) Religious violence would be related to fear of losing one’s fix. The intensely orthodox believer would be a kind of junkie.

I’ve been watching this thread since I first saw it and chose to keep quiet and watch, but I need to say this is not a necessarily true hypothesis.  There are some people, esp those leaving religion and some out for quite sometime who suffer from what Marlene Winell http://marlenewinell.net/ calls “Religious Trauma Syndrome”, which includes symptoms of PTSD.  There are some non-religious people who call themselves humanists or secular, who suffer from some religious trauma they grew up with as a child or experienced as an adult in religion.

I am a self-inquiring meditator. Do I belong here?

Since I did finally respond and made my presence known, I guess I should answer this too.  I don’t know if you belong here or not.  That’s something you have to decide for yourself.  There might be other groups/forums that you enjoy more and can contribute to more, like maybe Marlene’s Release and Reclaim group.  It maybe you could benefit more from a different group/forum at this point in your life.

I’m not trying to discourage you from this forum, I’m just suggesting that maybe this isn’t the forum for you, at least not at this time, but another might be more in line with your current thinking.  Then again, you might be able to get something out of this forum now too.  It’s something you need to decide for yourself and not something any of us can tell you. but gathering from some things said in this thread, you might appreciate a Buddhist, Tao, or maybe even a forum like I mentioned above.  I also know of a Tao forum ( taoism.net ) that you might appreciate too (my 24 y.o. son calls himself a Tao/Zen Buddhist, so I have some interest in this, if only to learn about his chosen religion).  The only answer I can give you, as to whether or not you belong in this forum is to say, if you’re not happy with this forum, then you might like/appreciate another venue, in which to express your thoughts, comments, ideas, etc., but keep in mind, you might not agree with everything discussed or said in any given forum,  There may still be topics/discussion that you may feel unsatisfied with even in a Taoism forum or even Marlene’s group, but even so, you may feel you fit in better with such a forum.  No one can tell you if you belong in a given group though.  That’s something you have to decide for yourself.

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Posted: 04 December 2013 09:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
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rightbrainguy - 26 November 2013 03:03 PM

Please investigate the functions of the right hemisphere of the brain.

Therein lies the problem with your hypothesis.  Speech, language, and hearing, for example, are not centered in just one side of the brain.  The Broca and Wernicke’s areas are not the only areas of the brain that for these activities.  If it were, then some stroke victims and even Gabrielle Giffords (a left brain injury) would never recover their speech and/or hearing.  Gabby’s TBI went from back left to front left, according to WebMD:  http://www.webmd.com/brain/news/20110109/gabrielle-giffords-brain-injury-faq  Yet, she speaks and has made an amazing recovery, that I, who has only a BS degree in Psychology, didn’t think she’d survive, but I also know TBI victims often do surprise us and make amazing recoveries.

That part of the brain controls vision, language, and the ability to move the right side of the body. All of these functions are at risk, notes Keith L. Black, MD.

It’s a very, very serious wound. About 90% of people shot in the head do not survive, David Langer says.

Gabby beat the odds and is still beating the odds, in part because even the adult brain can form new connections and new cells.

Then there is Phineas Gage- a very interesting very early case study of brain injury.  There are various places in both sides of the brain for these activities.  Not only that, we use most of our brains most of the time, and not just one side, unless, like asanta pointed out, one has a surgery either removing one side of the brain or clipping the corpus callosum and even then, the brain has an amazing way of recovering, esp in children.

So even this hypothesis you’ve seemed to have stated doesn’t hold up to research and actual case studies of TBI and granted, the two case studies of TBI I mentioned are left brain injuries, the same holds for the right side of the brain and neither side exclusively controls a given action.

[ Edited: 04 December 2013 09:29 AM by Mriana ]
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Posted: 04 December 2013 11:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
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I remember reading about what side of the brain controls what a while back. I posted a test on just about every web sight I posted on at the time.  I don’t keep to one ideology when I pick the places I go to. Liberal, Conservative, Theocratic and Atheist.  Heck I have a membership at an anarchistic site. Everywhere I posted that test the results were the same. People used equal parts of both hemispheres of the brain. I think this guy is trying to stretch something he doesn’t understand to fit his view of secular people.

I’ve been in 4 secular sites and all have had their fair share of people registering to quote/unquote show us the error of our ways. I think this is much more to do with intolerance that anything that even remotely intellectual. He just found some little issues that he thinks he can make his hijack to promote his own agenda.  Kind of like what the churches have done with religion.

[ Edited: 04 December 2013 11:40 AM by WuCares ]
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Posted: 04 December 2013 11:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]
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WuCares - 04 December 2013 11:36 AM

I remember reading about what side of the brain controls what a while back. I posted a test on just about every web sight I posted on at the time.  I don’t keep to one ideology when I pick the places I go to. Liberal, Conservative, Theocratic and Atheist.  Heck I have a membership at an anarchistic site. Everywhere I posted that test the results were the same. People used equal parts of both hemispheres of the brain. I think this guy is trying to stretch something he doesn’t understand to fit his view of secular people.

I’ve been in 4 secular sites and all have had their fair share of people registering to quote/unquote show us the error of our ways. I think this is much more to do with intolerance that anything that even remotely intellectual. He just found some little issues that he thinks he can make his hijack to promote his own agenda.  Kind of like what the churches have done with religion.

Yes, I think it’s related to the 10% myth, but I can’t prove it.  People think that just because the left brain controls the right side and the right brain controls the left and that each hemisphere is assigned specific actions, such as speech and language, and that that is all there is to it, but it’s far more complicated than that.  I think even Buddhists monks, esp educated ones, know better than that.

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Posted: 04 December 2013 12:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]
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We had a lecture at WNY CFI on meditation a few weeks ago.  I missed it due to other commitments.  I learned to meditate why serving in Saigon at one of the Churches of the Corner Bar there.  It has come in useful from tome to time.  Basically. IMO. it is very similar to what I was taught as a kid.  “Stop what you are doing, take a deep breath, and think again.  I don’t think lack of “meditation is a CFI problem, but a societal one,  everyone is now expected “multi-task.”

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Posted: 04 December 2013 12:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]
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garythehuman - 04 December 2013 12:17 PM

We had a lecture at WNY CFI on meditation a few weeks ago.  I missed it due to other commitments.  I learned to meditate why serving in Saigon at one of the Churches of the Corner Bar there.  It has come in useful from tome to time.  Basically. IMO. it is very similar to what I was taught as a kid.  “Stop what you are doing, take a deep breath, and think again.  I don’t think lack of “meditation is a CFI problem, but a societal one,  everyone is now expected “multi-task.”

I see this Church of the Corner Bar thing recurring in your posts Gary…
I’d like to pick your brain about it. 
Don’t know if I can or will, but I’d like to.

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Posted: 04 December 2013 04:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]
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VYAZMA - 04 December 2013 12:37 PM
garythehuman - 04 December 2013 12:17 PM

We had a lecture at WNY CFI on meditation a few weeks ago.  I missed it due to other commitments.  I learned to meditate why serving in Saigon at one of the Churches of the Corner Bar there.  It has come in useful from tome to time.  Basically. IMO. it is very similar to what I was taught as a kid.  “Stop what you are doing, take a deep breath, and think again.  I don’t think lack of “meditation is a CFI problem, but a societal one,  everyone is now expected “multi-task.”

I see this Church of the Corner Bar thing recurring in your posts Gary…
I’d like to pick your brain about it. 
Don’t know if I can or will, but I’d like to.

Our High Priestess is Saduri, the first known barmaid from the Epic of Gilgamesh.  Their are many congregations, most likely several in your neighborhood.  They are places where people get together, network, and support each other.  Yes, we do have many disputes and “theological” differences.  But in general we support each other.  We don’t prey, we toast.

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Posted: 04 December 2013 05:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]
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garythehuman - 04 December 2013 04:18 PM
VYAZMA - 04 December 2013 12:37 PM
garythehuman - 04 December 2013 12:17 PM

We had a lecture at WNY CFI on meditation a few weeks ago.  I missed it due to other commitments.  I learned to meditate why serving in Saigon at one of the Churches of the Corner Bar there.  It has come in useful from tome to time.  Basically. IMO. it is very similar to what I was taught as a kid.  “Stop what you are doing, take a deep breath, and think again.  I don’t think lack of “meditation is a CFI problem, but a societal one,  everyone is now expected “multi-task.”

I see this Church of the Corner Bar thing recurring in your posts Gary…
I’d like to pick your brain about it. 
Don’t know if I can or will, but I’d like to.

Our High Priestess is Saduri, the first known barmaid from the Epic of Gilgamesh.  Their are many congregations, most likely several in your neighborhood.  They are places where people get together, network, and support each other.  Yes, we do have many disputes and “theological” differences.  But in general we support each other.  We don’t prey, we toast.

If the Church of the Corner Bar serves wine and has good music, I’ll gladly attend at least once.

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