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Dreams are for the wealthy
Posted: 13 December 2013 06:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
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No Lausten, you’re not listening. Mac’s last paragraph is perfectly clear. given the circumstances anyone with the internal drive to improve their lives will find a way. This society isn’t totally stratified and we don’t have a caste system here. That’s why unions were able to take hold and force the government to make changes, because someone stepped up and formed them, e.g. Samuel Gompers. There weren’t just sucessful business leaders, there were also sucessful reformers who rose to the occasion, hence no child labor, no more unsafe working conditions, higher wages, safer food supplies. if you study history as you say you do then you already know the sacrifices these reformers and their followers took to improve the lives of the blue collar worker and made it easier to achieve the American dream, whatever that is. But the bottom line is to take action on an issue, not merely complain. Whining will get you attention, but nothing else.


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Posted: 13 December 2013 08:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
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I just read this article by Bill Moyers in Mother Jones on the shredding of the social contract. He includes both positions in an earlier interview with Justice Brennan. I believe Moyers’ contention that the middle class had better wake up soon:

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/12/fragile-democracy-plutocracy-dark-money-class-brennan


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Posted: 13 December 2013 10:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
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cuthbertj and lausten the two of you must work for the government or you are on gov. assistance because you sound pathetic. ‘oh it is so hard now. Those people back then they could get rich easy without work….and now I will have to work harder than anyone else to get rich….poor me….i might as well just give up.
That whiny crap makes me sick.
Where is your drive? Where is your backbone? This is what socialism breeds…..blaming other people for your misfortune. Fight harder. That is called survival. Listen to what macgyver was trying to tell you…..people are working hard to become rich right now….how ? They don’t all have connections….most of them are smarter and/or have more drive and tenacity….despite the discomfort or danger or pain or suffering they dont give up or give in. That is the the only sure way to succeed.
This is not a college course
this is life

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Posted: 13 December 2013 11:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
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Lausten - 12 December 2013 02:20 PM

I forgot I had this article. It’s about a study of how, as cutting costs and playing political games like reducing regulations has become the norm, management is valuing psychopathic personalities. Kinda explains a lot.

http://www.monbiot.com/2011/11/07/the-self-attribution-fallacy/

I finally had a chance to read this. What an idiotic article. I think virtually anyone would have to agree that success is the result of endogenous skills ( intelligence, charm, aggressiveness etc), Acquired skills (training, knowledge etc) , perseverance, opportunity ( call it luck if you like - having the right parents, going to the right school, being in the right place at the right time), and the willingness to take risk. This author with no evidence to back him up dismisses everything except luck and greed (aggressiveness) simply because it fits his view of the world. His arguments to support his position are incredibly weak.

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Posted: 13 December 2013 11:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
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sine dues - 13 December 2013 10:19 AM

cuthbertj and lausten the two of you must work for the government or you are on gov. assistance because you sound pathetic. ‘oh it is so hard now. Those people back then they could get rich easy without work….and now I will have to work harder than anyone else to get rich….poor me….i might as well just give up.
That whiny crap makes me sick.
Where is your drive? Where is your backbone? This is what socialism breeds…..blaming other people for your misfortune. Fight harder. That is called survival. Listen to what macgyver was trying to tell you…..people are working hard to become rich right now….how ? They don’t all have connections….most of them are smarter and/or have more drive and tenacity….despite the discomfort or danger or pain or suffering they dont give up or give in. That is the the only sure way to succeed.
This is not a college course
this is life

J&J fined $2b for bribing doctors into giving elderly, disabled, and infants drugs they knew didn’t work as expected. That’s what capitalism breeds. All the things in your post are make believe and a bunch of platitudes - I’d say the brainwashing has succeeded on you.

How about this: Your family can’t afford college, they can barely afford a car and food. Your mother is sick and needs monthly medicine, which makes your pitiful fast food pay seem like nothing. Ok go. Tell me how that person, in this the so-called greatest country in the world, can live the american dream just by hard work? Let’s even say they somehow manage to get an associates degree in something. There will be 50 other people vying for that same job. Go ahead, tell me how this person will live the Amercian dream?

(BTW - I make 6 figures, have opened more than one of my own businesses, and am personally not doing too bad. Even with that, I and others in similar situations are struggling to get our kids through college yet alone having big dreams for myself.)

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Posted: 13 December 2013 11:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
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mid atlantic - 08 December 2013 01:34 AM
CuthbertJ - 05 December 2013 11:30 AM

You can’t get a crappy job without a degree these days yet alone a good one.

I missed this comment.

There have been several threads bordering on this subject, but this is not really accurate. Decent jobs are out there, that don’t require any degree - e.g. the trades, first responder careers, truck driving, etc. I think one problem is that many young people feel these jobs are beneath them.  IMO, in this case, dreams may be an impediment.

FWIW, I’m a young adult who has never attended college, and I have a fairly good job.

In the 50’s it was possible for someone in your type of job to have a nice house, a couple cars, take yearly vacations AND send all their kids to good colleges, thus advancing the kids, the family, and society in general. (Oh and the wife usually didn’t have to work.) Nowadays it’s the exact opposite. It takes two fulls incomes to just barely have a liveable house, the 2 cars it takes to have two jobs, vacations have turned into “staycations” and going to a good university puts the kids and parents into massive debt, stifling the kids, family, and taking away from their ability to give to society (since most earnings go to debt).  The cost of tuition have skyrocketed, incomes have gone nowhere, the cost of everything is way higher relatively speaking. These are facts, not opinion.

So tell us, as a young adult, what’s your dream?

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Posted: 13 December 2013 12:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
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cuthbertj - This started out about dreams….then you make it sound like everyone DESERVES to have all the goods ( house, cars, yearly vacations, colleged kids ).
Every one does not get to ride in first class. Some get there due to ma+pa, some because of equal opportunity legislation and some by intellect and sweat. It sounds to me like you are already living the dream….do you want more?

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Posted: 13 December 2013 12:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
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CuthbertJ - 05 December 2013 11:30 AM

Is it me or is anyone else getting sick and tired of all these commercials that tell us to “reach for your dreams”?  I have a mortgage, two car payments, and kids to get through college. How do I go for my dreams?  What about kids whose parents can’t afford college or don’t have good enough credit scores to take out loans? You can’t get a crappy job without a degree these days yet alone a good one.

The educational system has turned into a racket since the G. I. Bill.

What percentage of the population had college degrees before World War II?

But it is rather funny that I can’t find educators much interested in a National Recommended Reading List.  You must not let kids get the idea that they might be able to learn a lot without teachers.

Teach Yourself Electricity and Electronics (2006) by Stan Gibilisco
http://www.electronics-tutorials.com/book-reviews/teach-yourself-electricity-and-electronics.htm

The Art of Electronics (1989) by Horowitz and Hill
http://books.sharedaa.com/2010/01/the-art-of-electronics-horowitz-hill.html

EveryCircuit by Igor Vytyaz
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.everycircuit&hl=en

xPiano by cyandroid
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.cyandroid.piano&feature=search_result#?t=W251bGwsMSwyLDEsImNvbS5jeWFuZHJvaWQucGlhbm8iXQ..

I wish I could have had stuff like that in 7th grade.

But I wonder if college will become technologically obsolete for most subjects within a few decades.  I think it is just a tradition that too many people have a vested economic interest in keeping.  I learned programming in FORTRAN with punched cards.  I could write and test more code on a tablet in a week than I did in three months back then.

Are our schools now figuring out better ways to waste kids’ time?

I wonder what the economy would be like if double-entry accounting had been mandatory since 1960.  I don’t even know if my high school had the course.  It was never mentioned to me.  Like comparing Romeo and Juliet to West Side Story was more useful.

What are 10 year olds supposed to dream when they listen to adults argue about global warming on TV?  Does it occur to them that the people they are watching will be dead in 30 years?  Who will the warming dump on then if it happens?

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Posted: 13 December 2013 03:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
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Don’t worry psik….you will be freezing your ass off in 30 years…..

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Posted: 13 December 2013 03:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
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sine dues - 13 December 2013 10:19 AM

cuthbertj and lausten the two of you must work for the government or you are on gov. assistance because you sound pathetic. ‘oh it is so hard now. Those people back then they could get rich easy without work….and now I will have to work harder than anyone else to get rich….poor me….i might as well just give up.
That whiny crap makes me sick.
Where is your drive? Where is your backbone? This is what socialism breeds…..blaming other people for your misfortune. Fight harder. That is called survival. Listen to what macgyver was trying to tell you…..people are working hard to become rich right now….how ? They don’t all have connections….most of them are smarter and/or have more drive and tenacity….despite the discomfort or danger or pain or suffering they dont give up or give in. That is the the only sure way to succeed.
This is not a college course
this is life

It’s pretty difficult to deal with this type of prejudice, but just because I don’t bother, that doesn’t make you right. I never said anyone should give up.

You can’t throw around words like “hard work” and “circumstances” without some serious defining of what you mean by those term. If you knew the “sure way to succeed”, I doubt you would be bothering to make posts on this little backwater of a discussion forum. Insurance costs are way up, health care is ridiculous, tuition, these things didn’t just happen because of simple laws of supply and demand. It is harder to start a business today. You better supply a lot of data if you want to convince me otherwise. It’s also harder to raise a family on one salary. You think mothers are working just because it makes them feel better?

Are you saying the children of Sam Walton have as much wealth as 42% of Americans because they have drive? The wage disparity we are currently experiencing between the richest and poorest is at the place where, historically, there have been revolutions. With the amount and types of weapons there are today, that should be a major concern. You tell people to fight harder, that’s what they’re going to do.

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Posted: 13 December 2013 03:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]
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Thevillageatheist - 13 December 2013 06:03 AM

This society isn’t totally stratified and we don’t have a caste system here. That’s why unions were able to take hold and force the government to make changes, because someone stepped up and formed them
Cap’t Jack

Can’t you see how perfectly backwards that statement is? If the system was already fair, and workers were represented equally and treated like their lives mattered, there would not have been a reason to create an entirely new organizational structure to attempt to correct that system. Whether or not that structure was done well or continues to serve it’s original purpose is not relevant to this point. The point is robber barons like Carnegie and Rockefeller cheated their way to riches. We fixed some of the problems with monopolies, but then we deregulated the financial industry. It is a constant battle of people with limited resources trying to stop the rich from changing the rules in their favor. That’s not whining, that’s being aware of how the world works.

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Posted: 13 December 2013 05:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]
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This society isn’t totally stratified and we don’t have a caste system here. That’s why unions were able to take hold and force the government to make changes, because someone stepped up and formed them
Cap’t Jack

Can’t you see how perfectly backwards that statement is? If the system was already fair, and workers were represented equally and treated like their lives mattered, there would not have been a reason to create an entirely new organizational structure to attempt to correct that system. Whether or not that structure was done well or continues to serve it’s original purpose is not relevant to this point. The point is robber barons like Carnegie and Rockefeller cheated their way to riches. We fixed some of the problems with monopolies, but then we deregulated the financial industry. It is a constant battle of people with limited resources trying to stop the rich from changing the rules in their favor. That’s not whining, that’s being aware of how the world works.

Where in my reply did I mention that the system was already fair? The Constitution from the beginning allowed for lassez faire capitalism. That was one of the major reasons this Democracy was created, to allow the unlimited acquisition of wealth without government restrictions. the founders didn’t initially plan on the factory system and legal slavery, but it developed when single proprietor businesses evolved into corporations beholden to the shareholders who couldn’t care less about the workers. Grassroots organizations became unions to protect worker’s rights despite attempts by the robber barons to destroy them. my point is that union organizers, some of whom were killed by hired thugs, or the national guard persevered and unions and grassroots groups fought to make these changes I mentioned. This could never have occurred under a repressive, totalitarian government. Workers have never been treated equally, and will never receive a share of the profits until they stand together and take action, e.g. Walmart protesters. Once again, one does not sit on the sidelines and blubber about his/her fate and if one doesn’t become involved by making a change for themselves or others then, yes it’s just whining.


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Posted: 13 December 2013 07:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]
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(BTW - I make 6 figures, have opened more than one of my own businesses, and am personally not doing too bad. Even with that, I and others in similar situations are struggling to get our kids through college yet alone having big dreams for myself.)


Hmm, interesting Cuth. You stared businesses and now make 6 figures. You’re not doing badly and probably drive a decent car, have a middle class home, job stability of course and a few perks to go along with it. Doesn’t that make my point to Lausten? I mean unless you inherited the money to start the businesses, you accomplished these feats all on your own? sounds like you just realized the “American Dream”. So I guess it can be done after all. FWIW, I’ve never made 6 figures but managed to help our kids through college, we have two cars, both Fords, have a decent home and travel expenses. When I first began my teaching career my wife and I qualified for public assistance; my salary that year was $6,300. I worked two jobs, made ends meet and put my wife through school then went back myself, twice. forty years later after staying within our budget I now have some money invested and our home is almost paid off. So I guess we can actually apply that cliche’ Lausten abhors to our own lives.


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One good schoolmaster is of more use than a hundred priests.

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Posted: 14 December 2013 01:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]
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CuthbertJ - 13 December 2013 11:22 AM
mid atlantic - 08 December 2013 01:34 AM
CuthbertJ - 05 December 2013 11:30 AM

You can’t get a crappy job without a degree these days yet alone a good one.

I missed this comment.

There have been several threads bordering on this subject, but this is not really accurate. Decent jobs are out there, that don’t require any degree - e.g. the trades, first responder careers, truck driving, etc. I think one problem is that many young people feel these jobs are beneath them.  IMO, in this case, dreams may be an impediment.

FWIW, I’m a young adult who has never attended college, and I have a fairly good job.

In the 50’s it was possible for someone in your type of job to have a nice house, a couple cars, take yearly vacations AND send all their kids to good colleges, thus advancing the kids, the family, and society in general. (Oh and the wife usually didn’t have to work.) Nowadays it’s the exact opposite. It takes two fulls incomes to just barely have a liveable house, the 2 cars it takes to have two jobs, vacations have turned into “staycations” and going to a good university puts the kids and parents into massive debt, stifling the kids, family, and taking away from their ability to give to society (since most earnings go to debt).  The cost of tuition have skyrocketed, incomes have gone nowhere, the cost of everything is way higher relatively speaking. These are facts, not opinion.

True, things were much better then. IMO, that good stuff is probably not coming back anytime soon. I think the younger generations are going to have to accept that a lower quality of (adult) life is what we are in for - compared to our parent"s generation.

So tell us, as a young adult, what’s your dream?

Eh, I have a lot of dreams, but I don’t really expect them to become reality. I try to aim for stability.

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Posted: 14 December 2013 06:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]
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Thevillageatheist - 13 December 2013 07:33 PM

. Doesn’t that make my point to Lausten? I mean unless you inherited the money to start the businesses, you accomplished these feats all on your own? sounds like you just realized the “American Dream”. So I guess it can be done after all.
Cap’t Jack

That it can be done is not the point at all. The point is, the system where “it can be done”, depends on a large labor pool of people desperate to take any kind of work. That’s why there are so many laws and policies that keep that in place.

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