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Capitalism
Posted: 10 January 2014 12:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 46 ]
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MadHatter - 07 January 2014 06:02 PM
CuthbertJ - 07 January 2014 11:55 AM
MadHatter - 05 January 2014 07:43 PM
CuthbertJ - 04 January 2014 07:13 PM

MikeYohe wrote [ CuthbertJ - Please tell us why a profit-centered (capitalism) versus people-centered (socialism) economic system is good.] I’m not sure if I’m interpreting this correctly. I think Capitalism is a disease so I’m not sure why I’d want to show it’s good.  I’m also not saying a socialist system as practiced anywhere today is the ideal system. I think if we just define socialism as people-centered, then we should do whatever we can to move to that type of system.  I think of it in really simple terms: a child with cancer, obviously no fault of their own, should have complete access to every possible treatment, cure, hospital, etc. without regard to how wealthy their parents are, and without regard to cost. In a capitalist system, this isn’t the case, because curing that child is not profitable. Same with education. When the profit motive is in place, then someone decides which cases are worth it or not based on monetary concerns. And that’s wrong.

So what you are saying is that you have a RIGHT to another persons skill, time, and learning at the expense of others? By what moral ground do you hold this true?

As for the original question a free market system is the most moral because it does not rely on FORCE to make people do things. The concept that you have a right to enact force on me or my business to make it fall in line with what you wish is amoral to the extreme. If I act unethically and cause people harm with a bad product that I knew was dangerous then I am legally liable for my negligence and should be held so. But preemptive force is not right by any means.

Oh geez an Ayn Randian Objectivist in a gorilla suit. Nice. The Free Market IS nothing more than FORCE in action…economic force doing just as much harm as real physical force. In fact I’d say the Fascists of the world have realized physical force is wasteful and that Economic Force enabled in a Free Market economy is the way to go.

As for your RIGHT to another persons skill Rand regurgitation…in the real world rational people realize no one stands alone. Therefore it’s in each’s best interest to assist others with all their might. I donate to St Judes to help children and their families not because someone is forcing me, but because I can. In your world you’d turn that around and say “what right do those children have to my money?”.  Barbarian.

Actually NO. Your situation fails because you are WILLINGLY donating money. Yes its right that its in our best interests to help others because we gain from it. What is not right is to tell the doctor yes you must take someone in because we say so. We need to have an exchange of value. That is what I advocate. If I am happy giving my talent with computer repair to a local ymca for free because I enjoy helping kids what I give up in time I gain from seeing my work make people happy. However if you say that I must help these kids because they need a pc to do home work no that is not right. Nor is it right to say that your need has any bearing on what I must do. Would it be nice, sure. Would it be the decent thing to do, most likely. BUT you have no right to demand anything from me unless you are willing to give something I deem of sufficient value in exchange. Its that simple.

The basic assumption Randians like yourself make is that every one is an island. (I used to be head over heals a Randian too, then I had a family and grew up.) You envision this hypothetical civilization where everything’s a nice one to one exchange, etc. It’s not that way at all. Every person is a node in a giant flexible social web. Movement of one node effects all the other nodes in some way. If you choose to live in the social web, versus on an island by yourself, then that carries some responsibilities, such as helping others EVEN IF YOU DON’T WANT TO.  My kids aren’t in the school district anymore. Does that mean I shouldn’t pay taxes that go to it? Absolutely not. I want to live in this city, it has a school, the price I pay is paying taxes to something I don’t want, don’t need, etc. (Directly of course. Since the kids in school work locally I do benefit because when I want a burger, they know how to count out change, etc.) And that’s how it is just a million times more complicated at the level of society in general.

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Posted: 10 January 2014 02:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 47 ]
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CuthbertJ - 10 January 2014 12:22 PM
MadHatter - 07 January 2014 06:02 PM
CuthbertJ - 07 January 2014 11:55 AM
MadHatter - 05 January 2014 07:43 PM
CuthbertJ - 04 January 2014 07:13 PM

MikeYohe wrote [ CuthbertJ - Please tell us why a profit-centered (capitalism) versus people-centered (socialism) economic system is good.] I’m not sure if I’m interpreting this correctly. I think Capitalism is a disease so I’m not sure why I’d want to show it’s good.  I’m also not saying a socialist system as practiced anywhere today is the ideal system. I think if we just define socialism as people-centered, then we should do whatever we can to move to that type of system.  I think of it in really simple terms: a child with cancer, obviously no fault of their own, should have complete access to every possible treatment, cure, hospital, etc. without regard to how wealthy their parents are, and without regard to cost. In a capitalist system, this isn’t the case, because curing that child is not profitable. Same with education. When the profit motive is in place, then someone decides which cases are worth it or not based on monetary concerns. And that’s wrong.

So what you are saying is that you have a RIGHT to another persons skill, time, and learning at the expense of others? By what moral ground do you hold this true?

As for the original question a free market system is the most moral because it does not rely on FORCE to make people do things. The concept that you have a right to enact force on me or my business to make it fall in line with what you wish is amoral to the extreme. If I act unethically and cause people harm with a bad product that I knew was dangerous then I am legally liable for my negligence and should be held so. But preemptive force is not right by any means.

Oh geez an Ayn Randian Objectivist in a gorilla suit. Nice. The Free Market IS nothing more than FORCE in action…economic force doing just as much harm as real physical force. In fact I’d say the Fascists of the world have realized physical force is wasteful and that Economic Force enabled in a Free Market economy is the way to go.

As for your RIGHT to another persons skill Rand regurgitation…in the real world rational people realize no one stands alone. Therefore it’s in each’s best interest to assist others with all their might. I donate to St Judes to help children and their families not because someone is forcing me, but because I can. In your world you’d turn that around and say “what right do those children have to my money?”.  Barbarian.

Actually NO. Your situation fails because you are WILLINGLY donating money. Yes its right that its in our best interests to help others because we gain from it. What is not right is to tell the doctor yes you must take someone in because we say so. We need to have an exchange of value. That is what I advocate. If I am happy giving my talent with computer repair to a local ymca for free because I enjoy helping kids what I give up in time I gain from seeing my work make people happy. However if you say that I must help these kids because they need a pc to do home work no that is not right. Nor is it right to say that your need has any bearing on what I must do. Would it be nice, sure. Would it be the decent thing to do, most likely. BUT you have no right to demand anything from me unless you are willing to give something I deem of sufficient value in exchange. Its that simple.

The basic assumption Randians like yourself make is that every one is an island. (I used to be head over heals a Randian too, then I had a family and grew up.) You envision this hypothetical civilization where everything’s a nice one to one exchange, etc. It’s not that way at all. Every person is a node in a giant flexible social web. Movement of one node effects all the other nodes in some way. If you choose to live in the social web, versus on an island by yourself, then that carries some responsibilities, such as helping others EVEN IF YOU DON’T WANT TO.  My kids aren’t in the school district anymore. Does that mean I shouldn’t pay taxes that go to it? Absolutely not. I want to live in this city, it has a school, the price I pay is paying taxes to something I don’t want, don’t need, etc. (Directly of course. Since the kids in school work locally I do benefit because when I want a burger, they know how to count out change, etc.) And that’s how it is just a million times more complicated at the level of society in general.

You won’t convince libertarians. As far as they’re concerned a free market will prevent or solve all problems. Like magic!  A rising tide raises all yachts.

Lois

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Posted: 10 January 2014 04:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 48 ]
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Studies show the average taxes paid by a worker today comes to 60%. That is all the fees, charges and hidden taxes in products, services and government. With Obama care that will rise to 63% or 64%, the numbers aren’t in yet. But after three years and the Federal money stops the cost are project to rise. How much, nobody knows.

I got to agree with MadHatter. I do not think I am getting my money’s worth!

The only force I have is my vote. And now I find out that the government may be controlling that too.

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Posted: 10 January 2014 06:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 49 ]
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Yeah, that’s a real problem.  Most people don’t think they’re getting their money’s worth because they haven’t the slightest idea of the extremely large amount of services the government provides.  If they had to pay for them as they used them they’d be going broke very quickly.  How much would you pay a private company to be able to drive on all surface streets and highways, to walk on the sidewalks, to teach your kids, to verify your food was safe, to assure that your flights were safe, that police, firemen, and the military give protection, that a court system protects us from cons, etc?  I’ve posted a partial list before and it filled about a half page.

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Posted: 10 January 2014 07:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 50 ]
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Occam. - 10 January 2014 06:52 PM

Yeah, that’s a real problem.  Most people don’t think they’re getting their money’s worth because they haven’t the slightest idea of the extremely large amount of services the government provides.  If they had to pay for them as they used them they’d be going broke very quickly.  How much would you pay a private company to be able to drive on all surface streets and highways, to walk on the sidewalks, to teach your kids, to verify your food was safe, to assure that your flights were safe, that police, firemen, and the military give protection, that a court system protects us from cons, etc?  I’ve posted a partial list before and it filled about a half page.

Occam

More than anyone is paying now. Nobody can fund his own society. Even the money we are able to earn is a product of society and government. Without them we’d have no money—and few goods.

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Posted: 10 January 2014 08:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 51 ]
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Occam, your right.
Most people do not understand that they are broke. What is the average debt of the American, $300,000.00 and growing?

The dollar is only a “note of debt” and that debt is only backed by the faith in the American system.

The dollar being the only safe haven currency has brought a higher standard of living to Americans.  When that faith is gone the dollar will crash. 3 out of every 4 dollars are used overseas.

If China gets their banking system built then the dollar will lose value and may even crash. Inflation will hit us and the average blue collar yearly income will be over one million per year. Your yearly taxes for all these government services might be over $150K per year, how’s that fit into your retirement plans. When do we put the brakes on?

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Posted: 10 January 2014 09:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 52 ]
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MikeYohe - 10 January 2014 08:11 PM

Occam, your right.
Most people do not understand that they are broke. What is the average debt of the American, $300,000.00 and growing?

The dollar is only a “note of debt” and that debt is only backed by the faith in the American system.

The dollar being the only safe haven currency ......

“Occam you’re right”.  Or are you?  I can’t tell by the rest of his post. It just meanders along….


Mike is Occam right, or is he wrong?  He just explained to you that you are getting your money’s worth.
Just like that you say Occam is right?  Are all of your views that easily corrected?

Or do you just visit here to spout out dime store cliches that you have no vested thoughts on?

Did you grasp what Occam said, or are you just toddling along here?

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Posted: 10 January 2014 09:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 53 ]
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MadHatter - 09 January 2014 09:24 PM

VYAZMA The market is not force. It is free exchange of value. Its is only when the government gets involved that there is force. You see the only legitimate force involved in the market ought to be when a contract is breached. That’s all, that’s it.

You’re uninformed.
There’s plenty of market forces that encumber and inhibit budding “entrepreneurs” like yourself all the time.
Even “upstanding decent folk” with capital to invest and good plans get affected by the market forces and business practices of others.

The Annals of the Courts are filled with cases where markets, trade practices, business practices, rules, monopolies, trusts, fixing etc have
prevented “hard working” business people from fulfilling their aspirations.

Therefore there isn’t equal opportunity. Wake up!

I know you’re probably frustrated trying to keep your lousy 1 man business afloat or something.
Quit looking for scapegoats.  I see plenty of good businesses out there.

Then there’s the goofball who never worked a stitch in his life who wants to make it in some sort of “business”
without any planning or foresight. Gunsmithing, or Pet groomers for example…No plan, no demand. just a dream.
Then when the belt has to be tightened, let’s get out the racism and the name calling(pondscum).
“It’s anybody’s fault but mine!!!”  Whaaaa…whaaaaaa!! downer
If you can’t pay your taxes it means your business probably sucks!

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Posted: 10 January 2014 10:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 54 ]
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Vyazma Post #52
Vyazma, “Mike is Occam right, or is he wrong?”
I agree with Occam, I believe Americans are receiving more than what their labor can buy them anywhere else in the world. But I also believe that the government is bad at management.
The problem i see is we are buying 12 inches of government when we really only need 3 inches.
Sorry for not making my statement clear.

A lot of world banking was only done in dollars. Like the buying of oil for example. As a couple of years ago that is no longer a true fact. China is about ready to open banking all around the world. When America has problems like the housing bubble, many countries also suffer because their money is based upon the value of the US dollar. So they suffer and have done nothing wrong. In a few years they will be able to switch to the European or China based money.

Russia wanted a safe haven currency too. They made agreements to partner with several countries like Venezuela but they do not look to be a threat.

All this killing by drones and the phone and internet spying is not making us to many friends around the world today and banking and trade is best done between friends.

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