2 of 11
2
We’re Running out of water
Posted: 12 January 2014 06:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2160
Joined  2007-04-26
Robert Walper - 12 January 2014 06:08 PM
macgyver - 12 January 2014 05:52 PM

Walper its a gross oversimplification to say this is a problem of logistics. Solar desalinization plants are not free even if the energy that powers them is.

Who said such plants are free?

In addition salt water and abundant sunshine are not always located in the same place which greatly increases the logistics and cost.

So you claim pinning the problem on logistics is an oversimplification and then point out the problem is…logistics.

Supplying even a small percentage of the water requirements of a country the size of the U.S. would be hugely expensive.

I guarantee it would be less expensive than not having the water available to run the country and the ensuing problems that creates.

That means that we would have to divert a large proportion of labor and other resources to provide our critical water supply.

The U.S. might be able to do this to a point but even here it would have a devastating effect on the economy if we had to get a significant part of our water through desalinization. In less affluent areas of the world this is not even an option.

Since when is an abundance of work and jobs devastating to an economy?

It IS an oversimplification because flipantly using the word logistics in the way you did implies that its a simple matter of shuffling a few things around when in fact its a matter of spending a great deal of money we dont have. While not finding a water supply would disastrous for the country you act as if there is no other option. Of course there are other options. We could limit building and growth in areas that dont have adequate water resources. We could expand the use of water saving measures like low flow toilets and showers, xeroscaping, recycling grey water and dozens of other measures that would reduce our insanely high rate of water use. We could also take better care of our aquifers by requiring safety measures so plants using toxic chemical cant accidentally contaminate our water supply.

“Since when is an abundance of work and jobs devastating to an economy?” When the project that provides those jobs could have been avoided with better planning and when it diverts resources from other activities like food production, health care, infrastructure and on and on. If consumers are spending $500/month on water bills instead of $50 and their food costs twice as much because irrigation is too expensive then consumers also have less to spend on consumer goods which drive most of the economy.

 Signature 

For every complex problem there is a solution that is simple, obvious,.... and just plain wrong

Profile
 
 
Posted: 12 January 2014 06:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  453
Joined  2012-07-02

I never claimed the problems were simple, easy to solve or cheap, DarronS. I’d appreciate it if you didn’t strawman my position and lie about arguments I never made.

My objection is to the notion we’re ‘running out’ of water in any literal sense, or energy for that matter. There is plenty of water available and plenty of energy to purify and transport it. The only real issue is logistics, as defined here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logistics

“Logistics is the management of the flow of resources between the point of origin and the point of consumption in order to meet some requirements, for example, of customers or corporations”.

You can sit there as long as you want claiming how expensive, labour intensive, time consuming and planning is required to solve the problem. My objection and sole objection has been to the notion we don’t have enough water (and necessary energy) to solve it.

 Signature 

“When your arguments are…ashes. Then you have my permission to cry.”

Profile
 
 
Posted: 12 January 2014 07:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4754
Joined  2007-10-05

Yes, we do have enough water and energy to solve the problem. You are ignoring all the other factors: economics, logistics (despite what you claim you have not answered my questions regarding logistics), politics, engineering and probably several unforeseen issues in trying to deliver enough potable water to the people who need it. Maybe you’re guilty of wishful thinking instead of being disingenuous, but you are clearly ignoring the breadth of this problem.

 Signature 

“In the beginning, God created the universe. This has made many people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.”
Douglas Adams, The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

Profile
 
 
Posted: 12 January 2014 07:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  453
Joined  2012-07-02
macgyver - 12 January 2014 06:48 PM

It IS an oversimplification because flipantly using the word logistics in the way you did implies that its a simple matter of shuffling a few things around when in fact its a matter of spending a great deal of money we dont have.

I’m not interested in what you think I’m implying. You can address my actual arguments. Simply sitting there and lying that I claimed logistics is a simple matter accomplishes nothing.

While not finding a water supply would disastrous for the country you act as if there is no other option.

Another lie on your part. I never claimed there was a single solution nor lack of options.

Of course there are other options. We could limit building and growth in areas that dont have adequate water resources. We could expand the use of water saving measures like low flow toilets and showers, xeroscaping, recycling grey water and dozens of other measures that would reduce our insanely high rate of water use. We could also take better care of our aquifers by requiring safety measures so plants using toxic chemical cant accidentally contaminate our water supply.

All of which are great points, and has absolutely nothing to do with my point that the claim we have a water shortage problem is utter nonsense.

“Since when is an abundance of work and jobs devastating to an economy?” When the project that provides those jobs could have been avoided with better planning and when it diverts resources from other activities like food production, health care, infrastructure and on and on. If consumers are spending $500/month on water bills instead of $50 and their food costs twice as much because irrigation is too expensive then consumers also have less to spend on consumer goods which drive most of the economy.

None of which has anything to do with my point we do not have a water shortage problem on our planet, nor an energy shortage problem which makes the prior point even more laughable.

 Signature 

“When your arguments are…ashes. Then you have my permission to cry.”

Profile
 
 
Posted: 12 January 2014 07:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  453
Joined  2012-07-02
DarronS - 12 January 2014 07:00 PM

Yes, we do have enough water and energy to solve the problem.

I rest my case.

 Signature 

“When your arguments are…ashes. Then you have my permission to cry.”

Profile
 
 
Posted: 12 January 2014 07:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4754
Joined  2007-10-05
Robert Walper - 12 January 2014 07:05 PM
DarronS - 12 January 2014 07:00 PM

Yes, we do have enough water and energy to solve the problem.

I rest my case.

And I rest mine. You are ignoring the breadth of this problem. Thank you for confirming that.

 Signature 

“In the beginning, God created the universe. This has made many people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.”
Douglas Adams, The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

Profile
 
 
Posted: 12 January 2014 07:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  453
Joined  2012-07-02
DarronS - 12 January 2014 07:07 PM
Robert Walper - 12 January 2014 07:05 PM
DarronS - 12 January 2014 07:00 PM

Yes, we do have enough water and energy to solve the problem.

I rest my case.

And I rest mine. You are ignoring the breadth of this problem. Thank you for confirming that.

And just how am I ignoring the breadth of this problem, DarronS? By all means, point out where I’ve made claims about the scale of the problem.

 Signature 

“When your arguments are…ashes. Then you have my permission to cry.”

Profile
 
 
Posted: 12 January 2014 07:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4754
Joined  2007-10-05
Robert Walper - 12 January 2014 07:12 PM

And just how am I ignoring the breadth of this problem, DarronS? By all means, point out where I’ve made claims about the scale of the problem.

Having enough water and energy available is only part of the problem. You never made claims about the scale of the problem, you are simply ignoring everything else I mentioned that will be required to solve the problem.

 Signature 

“In the beginning, God created the universe. This has made many people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.”
Douglas Adams, The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

Profile
 
 
Posted: 12 January 2014 07:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  453
Joined  2012-07-02
DarronS - 12 January 2014 07:33 PM

Having enough water and energy available is only part of the problem.

Yes, the most critical and important parts of the problem. As in everything else is moot without those two criteria met.

You never made claims about the scale of the problem, you are simply ignoring everything else I mentioned that will be required to solve the problem.

Because it has nothing to do with my original and single point, which is we have enough water and energy to solve it.

I have claimed we have enough water and energy to solve the problem. You have agreed to that claim. That sums up and concludes my position.

 Signature 

“When your arguments are…ashes. Then you have my permission to cry.”

Profile
 
 
Posted: 12 January 2014 07:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4754
Joined  2007-10-05
Robert Walper - 12 January 2014 07:40 PM

I have claimed we have enough water and energy to solve the problem. You have agreed to that claim. That sums up and concludes my position.

But that does not solve the problem. A foundation and electricity to the property do not make a house.

[ Edited: 12 January 2014 07:58 PM by DarronS ]
 Signature 

“In the beginning, God created the universe. This has made many people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.”
Douglas Adams, The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

Profile
 
 
Posted: 12 January 2014 08:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  453
Joined  2012-07-02
DarronS - 12 January 2014 07:55 PM

But that does not solve the problem. A foundation and electricity to the property do not make a house.

What part of “most critical parts of the problem” translates to you as “the only parts of the problem”, DarronS?

 Signature 

“When your arguments are…ashes. Then you have my permission to cry.”

Profile
 
 
Posted: 12 January 2014 08:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4754
Joined  2007-10-05

All the parts are critical. We cannot solve this problem without the capital, the means to repay it, the project plan, and the political will, plus other unforeseen consequences. Water and energy are not enough. You keep ignoring that part.

 Signature 

“In the beginning, God created the universe. This has made many people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.”
Douglas Adams, The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

Profile
 
 
Posted: 12 January 2014 08:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2160
Joined  2007-04-26

You may not care what I think you are implying but apparently everyone else here got the same impression. Here is how you entered this thread

“Any claim we’re running out of water is pure nonsense and stupidity….
We have a staggering abundance of energy and water. The only shortage on this issue is human intelligence and knowledge about those facts.”

So you start off with an abundance of arrogance and dissension and yet you want the benefit of the doubt about the intent of your comments. You will have to excuse us all when we conclude that your intent was indeed to minimize the depth of the problem.

You are right, there is plenty of non-drinkable , unusable water which we have no practical way of processing into potable water for 99% of the worlds population. There is on the other hand a serious shortage of available potable water for large portions of the human’s on this planet which is the actual subject of the discussion.

I assume when you say this claim is “stupid” its because you have a readily accessible solution. Please share it with the rest of us.

 Signature 

For every complex problem there is a solution that is simple, obvious,.... and just plain wrong

Profile
 
 
Posted: 12 January 2014 08:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4754
Joined  2007-10-05
macgyver - 12 January 2014 08:11 PM

I assume when you say this claim is “stupid” its because you have a readily accessible solution. Please share it with the rest of us.

I asked the same thing several posts back. I hear crickets.

 Signature 

“In the beginning, God created the universe. This has made many people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.”
Douglas Adams, The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

Profile
 
 
Posted: 12 January 2014 08:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  453
Joined  2012-07-02
DarronS - 12 January 2014 08:08 PM

All the parts are critical. We cannot solve this problem without the capital, the means to repay it, the project plan, and the political will, plus other unforeseen consequences.

I’m well aware humans have a great deal of self constructed barriers and hurtles to overcome. I’m not ignoring those points, those points were never mine to begin with and I never made claims against them.

All the problems can be reduced down to the two critical factors of available water and available energy to do the work of desalinating and distributing it.

Water and energy are not enough. You keep ignoring that part.

Water and energy actually are enough, because that is all nature requires to accomplish the same effect. All your mentioned additional problems are something I would agree are problems in the strictest sense, but they are human created and self imposed problems, which is not what I was talking about.

 Signature 

“When your arguments are…ashes. Then you have my permission to cry.”

Profile
 
 
   
2 of 11
2