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Does being under supernatural control exonerate Eve of any sin?
Posted: 31 January 2014 09:04 AM   [ Ignore ]
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Does being under supernatural control exonerate Eve of any sin?

Eve was unjustly punished because she was under supernatural control in a set of circumstances that God himself set up by putting Satan in Eden.

God put Satan in Eden to insure that Eve ate and gave him the power to deceive Eve. She could not resist God’s power directed through Satan and thus Eve had no choice but to eat of the tree of knowledge. She, like the snake, were under supernatural control and thus innocent of any wrong-doing.

Eve fails the criteria of mens rea, Latin for evil intent, a fundamental requirement of secular and biblical law, and thus Eve was innocent of any wrong-doing.

No human judge in his right mind would have judged A & E the way God did as God set the conditions that insured that A & E also died from neglect and the locking away of the tree of life. That was murder.

Does being under supernatural control exonerate Eve of any sin?

Did Eve have a free will while under supernatural control?

Regards
DL

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Posted: 31 January 2014 11:17 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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If Harry Potter waved his magic wand three times over a mature mandrake’s head, would the mandrake’s scream no longer kill an adult?

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Posted: 31 January 2014 11:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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Greatest I am - 31 January 2014 09:04 AM

Does being under supernatural control exonerate Eve of any sin?

Eve was unjustly punished because she was under supernatural control in a set of circumstances that God himself set up by putting Satan in Eden.

God put Satan in Eden to insure that Eve ate and gave him the power to deceive Eve. She could not resist God’s power directed through Satan and thus Eve had no choice but to eat of the tree of knowledge. She, like the snake, were under supernatural control and thus innocent of any wrong-doing.

Eve fails the criteria of mens rea, Latin for evil intent, a fundamental requirement of secular and biblical law, and thus Eve was innocent of any wrong-doing.

No human judge in his right mind would have judged A & E the way God did as God set the conditions that insured that A & E also died from neglect and the locking away of the tree of life. That was murder.

Does being under supernatural control exonerate Eve of any sin?

Did Eve have a free will while under supernatural control?

Regards
DL


I’d say no. Besides that, god would have known exactly what she would do, so it was no test at all, and it was a travesty to punish her for doing exactly what god set her up to do.  The same with Adam. But the story was nothing but a parable and anyone who takes it literally is a fool. Maybe THAT’s the test! A biblical IQ test.

Lois

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Posted: 31 January 2014 01:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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CuthbertJ - 31 January 2014 11:17 AM

If Harry Potter waved his magic wand three times over a mature mandrake’s head, would the mandrake’s scream no longer kill an adult?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqN8EYIIR3g&feature=related

Regards
DL

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Posted: 31 January 2014 02:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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Lois - 31 January 2014 11:56 AM
Greatest I am - 31 January 2014 09:04 AM

Does being under supernatural control exonerate Eve of any sin?

Eve was unjustly punished because she was under supernatural control in a set of circumstances that God himself set up by putting Satan in Eden.

God put Satan in Eden to insure that Eve ate and gave him the power to deceive Eve. She could not resist God’s power directed through Satan and thus Eve had no choice but to eat of the tree of knowledge. She, like the snake, were under supernatural control and thus innocent of any wrong-doing.

Eve fails the criteria of mens rea, Latin for evil intent, a fundamental requirement of secular and biblical law, and thus Eve was innocent of any wrong-doing.

No human judge in his right mind would have judged A & E the way God did as God set the conditions that insured that A & E also died from neglect and the locking away of the tree of life. That was murder.

Does being under supernatural control exonerate Eve of any sin?

Did Eve have a free will while under supernatural control?

Regards
DL


I’d say no. Besides that, god would have known exactly what she would do, so it was no test at all, and it was a travesty to punish her for doing exactly what god set her up to do.  The same with Adam. But the story was nothing but a parable and anyone who takes it literally is a fool. Maybe THAT’s the test! A biblical IQ test.

Lois

Perfect. You are why women should not be silent.

Regards
DL

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Posted: 31 January 2014 06:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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Of course, you only mean intelligent women, GIA, right?  LOL  LOL  LOL

Occam

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Posted: 31 January 2014 07:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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Greatest I am - 31 January 2014 01:59 PM
CuthbertJ - 31 January 2014 11:17 AM

If Harry Potter waved his magic wand three times over a mature mandrake’s head, would the mandrake’s scream no longer kill an adult?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqN8EYIIR3g&feature=related

Regards
DL

So you missed my point. Nice.

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Posted: 01 February 2014 07:34 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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I think the whole point of the Garden of Eden story is that Eve DID have free will.  She could have chosen to ignore the serpent’s wiles, but she didn’t.

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Posted: 01 February 2014 08:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
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  I think the whole point of the Garden of Eden story is that Eve DID have free will.  She could have chosen to ignore the serpent’s wiles, but she didn’t.

Precisely.  Without that understanding about our gift of free will which comes from His having free will then blaming God for a setup and/or the Devil made me do it become excuses for not obeying and being/taking responsibility for one’s decisions and actions which is proof we were made in God’s image as independent moral agents in His creation.  Apart from God we naturally with our fallen nature make all our decisions apart from His words and assistive guidance, wisdom, protection and love. 

Remember to have any true love relationship free will and deciding to love not hate/reject is a choice.  Just like what we believe is a choice which determines our world view, self view and ultimately our final resting place.  I can try to coerce or control somebody to try and get them to love me but ultimately it ends up in abuse or worse.  Just how we are made.

The order of creation is man then woman from man hence the often misunderstood mysoginistic and sex role behaviors that happen when this is confused.  This also shows that the woman was deceived and then she deceived man to eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and evil.  Prior to the fall man, woman and God were in harmony and carrying out each role rightly

Regardless of the fall this shows that man is the spiritual head and all spiritual final decisions are the mans as the head as Christ is the head of the church so even though Eve was deceived Adam was responsible.  This does not mean the woman is less than the man in any way but simply different roles for each.  The above explanation is the source/root for a ton of misunderstanding and misapplication amongst believers and unbelievers alike as well a s tons of resultant societal changes we see taking place rapidly today sociologically.  Money and stewardship being another big topic but that’s off topic.

God made us like Him but dependent on Him.  Otherwise we become like little Lucifers believing we are so self capable, beautiful and intelligent we don’t need to obey Him.

This is all plain to see and makes logical as well as spiritual sense.  God’s ways are orderly not disorderly/disfunctional.

[ Edited: 01 February 2014 09:05 AM by rodin46 ]
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Posted: 01 February 2014 09:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
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advocatus - 01 February 2014 07:34 AM

I think the whole point of the Garden of Eden story is that Eve DID have free will.  She could have chosen to ignore the serpent’s wiles, but she didn’t.

Yes but according to the story, she lacked the understanding necessary to appreciate the meaning or consequences of her action. The tree is called the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Plainly, this part of the story is a metaphor about how humans come to a level of awareness at which moral responsibility makes sense, or is even meaningful. But then as the story continues, it gets stupid. Disobedience is seen as deserving of punishment, which is absurd considering that the premise is that Adam and Eve had no knowledge of good and evil until they ate of the tree. As Julia Sweeney puts it, “How did this beautiful story get so fucked up?!” The answer lies in where it was taken after the first few passages.

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Posted: 01 February 2014 11:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
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advocatus - 01 February 2014 07:34 AM

I think the whole point of the Garden of Eden story is that Eve DID have free will.  She could have chosen to ignore the serpent’s wiles, but she didn’t.


Well, OF COURSE! The whole philosophy of the bible is that man has free will and should be punished for making the “wrong” decisions. I am beginning to think the focus of biblical writers wasn’t so much on free will but the punishment.  Assuming free will justifies the punishment. It’s a typical sadist’s game.

Lois

[ Edited: 03 February 2014 08:52 PM by Lois ]
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Posted: 01 February 2014 03:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
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Occam. - 31 January 2014 06:21 PM

Of course, you only mean intelligent women, GIA, right?  LOL  LOL  LOL

Occam

Oh my.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PibDMGxiyJw

Is there another kind?

Regards
DL

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Posted: 01 February 2014 03:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
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CuthbertJ - 31 January 2014 07:00 PM
Greatest I am - 31 January 2014 01:59 PM
CuthbertJ - 31 January 2014 11:17 AM

If Harry Potter waved his magic wand three times over a mature mandrake’s head, would the mandrake’s scream no longer kill an adult?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqN8EYIIR3g&feature=related

Regards
DL

So you missed my point. Nice.

No. I got it. You missed mine.

Regards
DL

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Posted: 01 February 2014 03:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
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advocatus - 01 February 2014 07:34 AM

I think the whole point of the Garden of Eden story is that Eve DID have free will.  She could have chosen to ignore the serpent’s wiles, but she didn’t.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBW5vdhr_PA

If this clip is true, and it obviously is, then we are all born with a rudimentary knowledge of good and evil.

It would take supernatural interference to deny A & E what this baby has.

Strange to thing that God made us in his image yet Christians must believe that God, in creating A & E As he did, indicates that he did not know good and evil. Right?

If I wanted to join your belief, I would have to justify God punishing an innocent snake for doing nothing.

How do you justify that?

Regards
DL

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Posted: 01 February 2014 03:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
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rodin46 - 01 February 2014 08:33 AM

  I think the whole point of the Garden of Eden story is that Eve DID have free will.  She could have chosen to ignore the serpent’s wiles, but she didn’t.

Precisely.  Without that understanding about our gift of free will which comes from His having free will then blaming God for a setup and/or the Devil made me do it become excuses for not obeying and being/taking responsibility for one’s decisions and actions which is proof we were made in God’s image as independent moral agents in His creation.  Apart from God we naturally with our fallen nature make all our decisions apart from His words and assistive guidance, wisdom, protection and love. 

Remember to have any true love relationship free will and deciding to love not hate/reject is a choice.  Just like what we believe is a choice which determines our world view, self view and ultimately our final resting place.  I can try to coerce or control somebody to try and get them to love me but ultimately it ends up in abuse or worse.  Just how we are made.

The order of creation is man then woman from man hence the often misunderstood mysoginistic and sex role behaviors that happen when this is confused.  This also shows that the woman was deceived and then she deceived man to eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and evil.  Prior to the fall man, woman and God were in harmony and carrying out each role rightly

Regardless of the fall this shows that man is the spiritual head and all spiritual final decisions are the mans as the head as Christ is the head of the church so even though Eve was deceived Adam was responsible.  This does not mean the woman is less than the man in any way but simply different roles for each.  The above explanation is the source/root for a ton of misunderstanding and misapplication amongst believers and unbelievers alike as well a s tons of resultant societal changes we see taking place rapidly today sociologically.  Money and stewardship being another big topic but that’s off topic.

God made us like Him but dependent on Him.  Otherwise we become like little Lucifers believing we are so self capable, beautiful and intelligent we don’t need to obey Him.

This is all plain to see and makes logical as well as spiritual sense.  God’s ways are orderly not disorderly/disfunctional.

How can you know the ways of God when he unfathomable and works in mysterious ways?

Can you or anyone else somehow fathom the unfathomable?

Back to Eden, let’s open things us a bit shall we.

Eve was correct in eating of the tree of knowledge and rejecting God.


It was God’s plan from the beginning to have Adam and Eve eat the forbidden fruit. This can be demonstrated by the fact that the bible says that Jesus “was crucified from the foundations of the Earth,” that is to say, God planned to crucify Jesus as atonement for sin before he even created human beings or God damned sin.
 
1Peter 1:20 0 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

This indicates that Jesus had no choice.

If God had not intended humans to sin from the beginning, why did he build into the Creation this “solution” for sin? Why create a solution for a problem you do not anticipate?

God knew that the moment he said “don’t eat from that tree,” the die was cast. The eating was inevitable. Eve was merely following the plan.

This then begs the question.

What kind of God would plan and execute the murder of his own son when there was absolutely no need to?

Only an insane God. That’s who.

The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice, thus showing it‘s immorality.

One of Christianity’s highest form of immorality is what they have done to women. They have denied them equality and subjugated them to men.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqN8EYIIR3g&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dspWh9g3hU&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9c0RFxXrYzg&feature=related

————————————

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite “free will!”, or “ it’s all man’s fault”.

That is “God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy.”

But this simply avoids God’s culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose “A” or “B” (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of “being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent” and “desiring to eat a forbidden fruit” must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and “free will” means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all sin by nature then, the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin.


Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil is all human generated. Evil is our responsibility.

Much has been written to explain what I see as a natural part of evolution.

Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created.

Evil then is only human to human.
As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil at all times.

Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.

This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.

Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, we should all see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us.

There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.

Regards
DL

——————————————

Evolutionary theology.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXOvYn1OAL0&list=UUDXjzOeZRqLxhYaaEhWLb_A&index=9

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Posted: 02 February 2014 11:21 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]
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Greatest I am - 01 February 2014 03:09 PM
CuthbertJ - 31 January 2014 07:00 PM
Greatest I am - 31 January 2014 01:59 PM
CuthbertJ - 31 January 2014 11:17 AM

If Harry Potter waved his magic wand three times over a mature mandrake’s head, would the mandrake’s scream no longer kill an adult?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqN8EYIIR3g&feature=related

Regards
DL

So you missed my point. Nice.

No. I got it. You missed mine.

Regards
DL

Sorry again. My point, which you missed, is that your whole post is fiction. As fiction anything goes. You can make up any meaning you wish, twist things however you want, because it’s a story with zero real significance. In the same way we could be discussing the morality of the wolf in the Three Little Pigs tale. It’s all made up with zero bearing on anything other than a simple story. Just because the story has “loaded terms” like Adam and Eve and Garden of Eden and God doesn’t mean a thing. So please don’t think you’re engaging in an important discussion with any relationship to the world OTHER than simplistic analogy, on a par with the Three Little Pigs.

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