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Does being under supernatural control exonerate Eve of any sin?
Posted: 04 February 2014 11:17 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
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Greatest I am - 02 February 2014 02:16 PM

CuthbertJ

As I said, I got yours, you missed mine.

Any theist who sees your post will shut down and not even consider the larger moral issue thanks to your rant without argument.

My point to you is that as a non-believing apologist, you suck at converting anyone to a more moral stance.

Your motive for being in this section seems to just be self serving. I hope I am wrong.

Regards
DL

I guess my mistake was to think you were a Christian trying to make a moral point about the A&E story. Evidently you’re not a Christian and in fact are just trying to come up with an explanation that takes the steam out of the A&E story when you argue with Christians? Do I have at least that right? And if so, good luck with that, won’t work.

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Posted: 04 February 2014 11:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
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CuthbertJ - 04 February 2014 11:17 AM
Greatest I am - 02 February 2014 02:16 PM

CuthbertJ

As I said, I got yours, you missed mine.

Any theist who sees your post will shut down and not even consider the larger moral issue thanks to your rant without argument.

My point to you is that as a non-believing apologist, you suck at converting anyone to a more moral stance.

Your motive for being in this section seems to just be self serving. I hope I am wrong.

Regards
DL

I guess my mistake was to think you were a Christian trying to make a moral point about the A&E story. Evidently you’re not a Christian and in fact are just trying to come up with an explanation that takes the steam out of the A&E story when you argue with Christians? Do I have at least that right? And if so, good luck with that, won’t work.

I am not a Christian. I am a Gnostic Christian. There is quite a difference. In fact When Constantine bought out the then Orthodox Church, they burned our scriptures and killed many of us.

There is no foolproof method of de-converting those that have fallen into belief in fantasy but shutting them down is not the way.

Regards
DL

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Posted: 04 February 2014 11:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
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Greatest I am - 04 February 2014 11:32 AM

I am not a Christian. I am a Gnostic Christian. There is quite a difference. In fact When Constantine bought out the then Orthodox Church, they burned our scriptures and killed many of us.
DL

Poor Constantine, he really takes a beating for calling together all those Christians.

I tried to find out what Gnostic Christianity is all about, but mostly ran in to what it is not. Then I read this and pretty much stopped,

In a certain sense, it may therefore be true to say that all is God, for all consists of the substance of God. By the same token, it must also be recognized that many portions of the original divine essence have been projected so far from their source that they underwent unwholesome changes in the process. To worship the cosmos, or nature, or embodied creatures is thus tantamount to worshipping alienated and corrupt portions of the emanated divine essence.

It seems to be just another version of, listen to us, read our books, come to our meetings and we will help you find yourself.

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Posted: 04 February 2014 01:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
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Lausten - 04 February 2014 11:55 AM
Greatest I am - 04 February 2014 11:32 AM

I am not a Christian. I am a Gnostic Christian. There is quite a difference. In fact When Constantine bought out the then Orthodox Church, they burned our scriptures and killed many of us.
DL

Poor Constantine, he really takes a beating for calling together all those Christians.

I tried to find out what Gnostic Christianity is all about, but mostly ran in to what it is not. Then I read this and pretty much stopped,

In a certain sense, it may therefore be true to say that all is God, for all consists of the substance of God. By the same token, it must also be recognized that many portions of the original divine essence have been projected so far from their source that they underwent unwholesome changes in the process. To worship the cosmos, or nature, or embodied creatures is thus tantamount to worshipping alienated and corrupt portions of the emanated divine essence.

It seems to be just another version of, listen to us, read our books, come to our meetings and we will help you find yourself.

That is not the way I see Gnostic Christian of today. Not being literalists, we let God evolve and you are looking at old belief and without an old Gnostic around to explain it in context then it should be ignored. That example showed a theistic belief and not being a literalists and going by gnosis or things we know to be real knowledge is the main theme of Gnosticism. And a belief that their is an unseen world.

The Godhead I believe in for instance is natural and normal and I need no belief in the supernatural to bolster my belief. I do not even adore the Godhead I found as it is slaved to us, so to speak, not us slave to it. It serves man, man does not serve it. The strong should serve the weak, not the weak serve the strong.

Let me give you this O P that I did elsewhere.

Care to compare the Jesus you know to the one I know?

I have been asked to do an O P showing my beliefs and have written a nutshell view to fill that request.
 
I was a skeptic till the age of 39. I then had an apotheosis and later branded myself an esoteric ecumenist and Gnostic Christian. Gnostic Christian because I exemplify this quote from William Blake and that makes me as hated by Christians today as the ancient Gnostics that Constantine had the Christians kill when he bought the Catholic Church.

“Both read the Bible day and night, But thou read’st black where I read white.”

This refers to how Gnostics tend to reverse, for moral reasons, what Christians see in the Bible. We tend to recognize the evil ways of the O. T. God where literal Christians will see God’s killing as good. Christians are sheep where Gnostic Christians are goats.

This is perhaps why we see the use of a Jesus scapegoat as immoral, while theists like to make Jesus their beast of burden. An immoral position.

During my apotheosis, something that only lasted 5 or 6 seconds, the only things of note to happen was that my paradigm of reality was confirmed and I was chastised to think more demographically. What I found was what I call a cosmic consciousness. Not a new term but one that is a close but not exact fit.

I recognize that I have no proof. That is always the way with apotheosis.
This is also why I prefer to stick to issues of morality because no one has yet been able to prove that God is real and I have no more proof than they for the cosmic consciousness or what I call; the Godhead.

The cosmic consciousness is not a miracle working God. It does not interfere with us save when one of us finds it. Not a common thing from what I can see. It is a part of nature and our next evolutionary step.

I tend to have more in common with atheists who ignore what they see as my delusion because our morals are basically identical. Theist tend not to like me much as I have no respect for literalists and fundamentals and think that most Christians have exaggerated tribal mentalities and poor morals as they have developed a double standard to be able to stomach their God.

I am rather between a rock and a hard place but this I cannot help.

I am happy to be questioned on what I believe but whether or not God exists is basically irrelevant to this world for all that he does not do, and I prefer to thrash out moral issues that can actually find an end point. The search for God is never ending when you are of the Gnostic persuasion. My apotheosis basically says that I am to ignore whatever God I found, God as a set of rules that is, not idol worship it but instead, raise my bar of excellence and seek further.

My apotheosis also showed me that God has no need for love, adoration or obedience. He has no needs. Man has dominion here on earth and is to be and is the supreme being.

Since then, I have tried to collect information that would help any that believe that apotheosis is possible, generally not Christians,—- as they do not believe in the mythical esoteric Jesus that I believe in and churches do not dare teach it.

This first clip gives the theological and philosophical interpretation of what Jesus taught and the second clip show what I think is a close representation of the method that helped me push my apotheosis.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbesfXXw&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdSVl_HOo8Y

Basically, the usual Christian Jesus is their hero and savior while my version demand that man himself steps up to the plate and save himself.

Which version do you think is more moral and deserving of praise and why?
Regards
DL

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Posted: 04 February 2014 02:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
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Greatest I am - 04 February 2014 01:23 PM

That is not the way I see Gnostic Christian of today. .....
Let me give you this O P that I did elsewhere.

Care to compare the Jesus you know to the one I know?

DL

Ah yes, the old, “care to compare the Jesus you know post”. I remember it well. I remember getting hung up on your “apotheosis”. You can review my comments there.

And, big surprise, I didn’t find the “real” Gnostic Christian website. How could I? by definition it’s what you find within so it can’t be on a website. If you find it, that’s not it, keep looking, that’s why you are still around and talking about how you are searching after thousands of years. It’s like The Game of Thrones series, buy the next book, that’s when the action will really start.

Yes, I’m sarcastic and cynical. I spent 15 years with a bunch of Taoist/Wiccan/Pagan Christians who all thought they were pretty special, that they had figured out the “real” Christianity, the open minded one that’s all about community and sojourning, the one you can’t franchise. The one that sucks all your time and wastes your money heating an unused building just like every other church everywhere always. As Bill Hicks once said, “Don’t get me wrong, I know YOU think they’re special, but, they’re not.”

I joined that church because I thought it was part of a movement to take the moral high ground back from the Right Wing politicians. They are collapsing under their own weight and these counter-culture-whatever-you-call-em Christians continue to be a weak force. They can’t be anything more because the more they distance themselves from the others, the further they get from being a church. They can’t say that we should test the assumptions of their religion because they are afraid of how that will turn out.

Whew - afternoon coffee burst.

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Posted: 04 February 2014 02:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
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Lausten - 04 February 2014 02:28 PM
Greatest I am - 04 February 2014 01:23 PM

That is not the way I see Gnostic Christian of today. .....
Let me give you this O P that I did elsewhere.

Care to compare the Jesus you know to the one I know?

DL

Ah yes, the old, “care to compare the Jesus you know post”. I remember it well. I remember getting hung up on your “apotheosis”. You can review my comments there.

And, big surprise, I didn’t find the “real” Gnostic Christian website. How could I? by definition it’s what you find within so it can’t be on a website. If you find it, that’s not it, keep looking, that’s why you are still around and talking about how you are searching after thousands of years. It’s like The Game of Thrones series, buy the next book, that’s when the action will really start.

Yes, I’m sarcastic and cynical. I spent 15 years with a bunch of Taoist/Wiccan/Pagan Christians who all thought they were pretty special, that they had figured out the “real” Christianity, the open minded one that’s all about community and sojourning, the one you can’t franchise. The one that sucks all your time and wastes your money heating an unused building just like every other church everywhere always. As Bill Hicks once said, “Don’t get me wrong, I know YOU think they’re special, but, they’re not.”

I joined that church because I thought it was part of a movement to take the moral high ground back from the Right Wing politicians. They are collapsing under their own weight and these counter-culture-whatever-you-call-em Christians continue to be a weak force. They can’t be anything more because the more they distance themselves from the others, the further they get from being a church. They can’t say that we should test the assumptions of their religion because they are afraid of how that will turn out.

Whew - afternoon coffee burst.

You are looking without when you should be looking within. You can read but you do not understand what you read.

God I define as and ideal in law. Do you think we have the ideal laws to live by on this world yet?

If not, should we not seek those laws and did Jesus not say to write his laws in our heart? Seek and ye shall find.

Have we as secular people not already improved on what was given in the past and do we not seek to improve them daily? Yes we do.

That is all I am telling you to do and if you do, you too might suffer an apotheosis and go from your mindset now to one of a fool because you will have to change your mind and tell all of us that you have had an apotheosis and must now eat of what you gave to me and others.

Go read my O P again and try to understand it this time.

Regards
DL

[ Edited: 04 February 2014 02:54 PM by Greatest I am ]
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Posted: 04 February 2014 04:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
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Greatest I am - 04 February 2014 02:52 PM

You are looking without when you should be looking within. You can read but you do not understand what you read.

God I define as and ideal in law. Do you think we have the ideal laws to live by on this world yet?

If not, should we not seek those laws and did Jesus not say to write his laws in our heart? Seek and ye shall find.

Have we as secular people not already improved on what was given in the past and do we not seek to improve them daily? Yes we do.

That is all I am telling you to do and if you do, you too might suffer an apotheosis and go from your mindset now to one of a fool because you will have to change your mind and tell all of us that you have had an apotheosis and must now eat of what you gave to me and others.

Go read my O P again and try to understand it this time.

Regards
DL

Perfect, could not have written that response better myself.
No I don’t think we have an ideal anything. There is no guarantee what seeking will turn up.
Not sure what “we” you are referring, some seek to improve, some to destroy. Hopefully you and I at least WANT to improve.
“Go read it again”, that’s all you got my friend.

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Posted: 05 February 2014 06:26 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
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Lausten - 04 February 2014 04:27 PM
Greatest I am - 04 February 2014 02:52 PM

You are looking without when you should be looking within. You can read but you do not understand what you read.

God I define as and ideal in law. Do you think we have the ideal laws to live by on this world yet?

If not, should we not seek those laws and did Jesus not say to write his laws in our heart? Seek and ye shall find.

Have we as secular people not already improved on what was given in the past and do we not seek to improve them daily? Yes we do.

That is all I am telling you to do and if you do, you too might suffer an apotheosis and go from your mindset now to one of a fool because you will have to change your mind and tell all of us that you have had an apotheosis and must now eat of what you gave to me and others.

Go read my O P again and try to understand it this time.

Regards
DL

Perfect, could not have written that response better myself.
No I don’t think we have an ideal anything. There is no guarantee what seeking will turn up.
Not sure what “we” you are referring, some seek to improve, some to destroy. Hopefully you and I at least WANT to improve.
“Go read it again”, that’s all you got my friend.

Give a reply to the other O P so as not to derail here and we will see what else I can give you.
If you seek a proof though, I cannot help you. If you think I live in woo then I would not bother as we will not chat long. I do not expect belief but I am impatient with those who think me in woo land. I have no beliefs that require miracles or magic.

Regards
DL

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Posted: 05 February 2014 07:04 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
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Greatest I am - 05 February 2014 06:26 AM
Lausten - 04 February 2014 04:27 PM

“Go read it again”, that’s all you got my friend.

Give a reply to the other O P so as not to derail here and we will see what else I can give you.
If you seek a proof though, I cannot help you. If you think I live in woo then I would not bother as we will not chat long. I do not expect belief but I am impatient with those who think me in woo land. I have no beliefs that require miracles or magic.

Regards
DL

You can see that we already had that conversation can’t you? I didn’t read the whole thing and I don’t remember where we left it, but I did respond back then. You think YOUR apeothesis <sic> should mean something to me. It only means that people have those types of experiences and attach meaning to them. When you start saying that your interpretation is correct and I should get something from that, that’s when it becomes woo. How would you define that?

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Posted: 05 February 2014 07:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
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Lausten - 05 February 2014 07:04 AM
Greatest I am - 05 February 2014 06:26 AM
Lausten - 04 February 2014 04:27 PM

“Go read it again”, that’s all you got my friend.

Give a reply to the other O P so as not to derail here and we will see what else I can give you.
If you seek a proof though, I cannot help you. If you think I live in woo then I would not bother as we will not chat long. I do not expect belief but I am impatient with those who think me in woo land. I have no beliefs that require miracles or magic.

Regards
DL

You can see that we already had that conversation can’t you? I didn’t read the whole thing and I don’t remember where we left it, but I did respond back then. You think YOUR apeothesis <sic> should mean something to me. It only means that people have those types of experiences and attach meaning to them. When you start saying that your interpretation is correct and I should get something from that, that’s when it becomes woo. How would you define that?

My interpretation is just that, an interpretation. Whether you get anything from it is not in my hands.

I am not sure just what you want defined. If you mean that situation then I would just define it as one person giving an anecdotal account and another taking it as something the other believe or a lie. I have no profit in lying so take it was you will.

Regards
DL

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Posted: 05 February 2014 08:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]
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Greatest I am - 05 February 2014 07:52 AM

My interpretation is just that, an interpretation. Whether you get anything from it is not in my hands.

I am not sure just what you want defined. If you mean that situation then I would just define it as one person giving an anecdotal account and another taking it as something the other believe or a lie. I have no profit in lying so take it was you will.

Regards
DL

You say that, but you also say

you too might suffer an apotheosis and go from your mindset now to one of a fool because you will have to change your mind and tell all of us that you have had an apotheosis and must now eat of what you gave to me and others.
Go read my O P again and try to understand it this time.

Indicating there is something I don’t understand and an experience that I have not had that would enlighten me and raise my awareness to some point that you are at. Obviously you think this point is better than the place I’m in now. Make up your mind.

Further evidence, from the other thread;

But if you do not recognize that you have a spiritual side and seek a higher ideal, you will not understand the ideas esoteric thinking give.

So, if I understand you, I must first accept (“recognize”) something with no evidence (“spiritual side”) then I can understand. I already discussed these false choices you setup in the other thread. In that thread, you were evasive and referred back to ANOTHER thread about free will. I suspect this is your modus operandi, keep referring to things with less and less and data until we are speaking in pure hypotheticals. Here’s where I left it:

http://www.centerforinquiry.net/forums/viewthread/16675/P15/#189092

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Posted: 05 February 2014 10:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]
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You are still seeing God as a supernatural entity somewhere out there. Not surprising as that is what most churches teach and an idea that does not sit well with you. Me neither. The Godhead I speak of is inside of you. And if you cannot drop that external God just think of that word as representing an ideal that your higher mind recognizes, then we are never going to be on the same page. It is all imagination and internalizing the myth of Jesus that helps you find your Jesus or higher mind within yourself. There is no Jesus. There is only your higher mind. To esoteric thinking in any case and you do not have that as you do not seek a higher ideal.

I did not re-read the O P but you must have brought up free will or evil as I would not have answered as I did.

Trying to convert me is impossible as I am going by my true experience and have the evidence I need to believe as I do.

If you do not recognize that you have two natures, a political one and a spiritual one, then I cannot convert you.

Seems we are at a dead end but since we both give man supreme power with no deity above us our morals likely match as we do not have to corrupt them the way idol worshipers have to to justify their God’s atrocities. The Christians that is.

Regards
DL

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Posted: 05 February 2014 11:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]
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The traditional God and church does not really enter into this anymore, so mentioning it just indicates your own confusion, not mine. I know you are talking about something inside of me, it would be pretty hard to miss that.

I know about the power of myth. I wouldn’t use the word “internalize” when talking about it. I often say, “find yourself in the story”. That is, the myth is what it is, and I can relate to it, map myself onto it, experience it as deeply as I can, but it’s always a myth. There is no Jesus in me to find. Also, I would never tell someone they “do not seek a higher ideal”, that’s just rude.

What’s bringing this to a dead end is your lack of effort. Find where I mentioned free will before you did for example.

http://www.centerforinquiry.net/forums/viewthread/16675/P15/#189089

And I’m not trying to convert anyone. I’m just fascinated by these home grown versions of spirituality. I don’t understand why you think it is any better than any other. Fine, you don’t have a supreme being threatening hell, you don’t tell people to make sacrifices at alters. But those morals have only changed because most people can’t be frightened or tricked into doing those things anymore.

You’re still telling people that you recognize something they don’t, even though you can’t explain what it is. That’s the beginning of the road for any religion and it leads to the same mess every time.

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Posted: 05 February 2014 11:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]
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Lausten - 05 February 2014 11:13 AM

The traditional God and church does not really enter into this anymore, so mentioning it just indicates your own confusion, not mine. I know you are talking about something inside of me, it would be pretty hard to miss that.

I know about the power of myth. I wouldn’t use the word “internalize” when talking about it. I often say, “find yourself in the story”. That is, the myth is what it is, and I can relate to it, map myself onto it, experience it as deeply as I can, but it’s always a myth. There is no Jesus in me to find. Also, I would never tell someone they “do not seek a higher ideal”, that’s just rude.

What’s bringing this to a dead end is your lack of effort. Find where I mentioned free will before you did for example.

http://www.centerforinquiry.net/forums/viewthread/16675/P15/#189089

And I’m not trying to convert anyone. I’m just fascinated by these home grown versions of spirituality. I don’t understand why you think it is any better than any other. Fine, you don’t have a supreme being threatening hell, you don’t tell people to make sacrifices at alters. But those morals have only changed because most people can’t be frightened or tricked into doing those things anymore.

You’re still telling people that you recognize something they don’t, even though you can’t explain what it is. That’s the beginning of the road for any religion and it leads to the same mess every time.

I show a way to reach the higher mind. I do not think it better than any other way.

No one has a monopoly on a way or a truth.

I do try explain what I think it is. That is why we are here discussing just that.

That is why I provided this clip in that other O P.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdSVl_HOo8Y

This method is a way, as Bishop Spong says, to get rid of religiosity and think spiritually and became as ideal of a human as possible.

It is to cast of the yoke of religion by spiritual people. If you are not one of those, we don’t really have a place to go unless you think you can talk me out of my beliefs and that would be fruitless and a real short conversation.

Regards
DL

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Posted: 05 February 2014 12:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]
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Greatest I am - 05 February 2014 11:27 AM

It is to cast of the yoke of religion by spiritual people. If you are not one of those, we don’t really have a place to go unless you think you can talk me out of my beliefs and that would be fruitless and a real short conversation.

Regards
DL

I cast that off a long time ago. I’m saying what you’re doing is just a different yoke. Your YouTube does not explain why what you’re doing is any different than any other form of spirituality/religion. I read Spong. If there was a book that when I started I was a believer and when I ended I was not, Jesus for the Non-Religious would be it. But when I got to the end of that, and he tacked on the bit about how he still loved Jesus in a very special way, it made no sense. Maybe you can explain that.

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