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Posted: 03 March 2014 08:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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TimB - 03 March 2014 07:12 PM

In regards to atmospheric Carbon Dioxide levels, we humans, have, ignorantly, been moving very fast.  Since 1950 the atmospheric levels have been greater than any time in the past 625,000 years.  And since 1950 the continuing rate of increase is straight up.


Science is getting better and better all the time. I remember when the story was that the earth ran in cycles and we were headed for another Ice Age.

You’re right on the carbon foot print. But what I hate seeing is that we shoot ourselves in the foot and then complain because we can’t walk. We should take it slow and do the proper fix.
 
The proper fix to me would be to change to geothermal energy.  And I mean deep hole, high temperature energy.  Those temperatures start at 1,200 degrees and go up. Pure energy.
But, today that’s not even being talked about. Why? I would guess it is not a field that requires much science so NASA is not going there.
 
Here something the scientist are working on.
http://northdenvernews.com/co2-to-methanol-a-new-lost-catalyst-peak-oil-climate-change/

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Posted: 03 March 2014 08:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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MikeYohe - 03 March 2014 08:09 PM

...
Science is getting better and better all the time. I remember when the story was that the earth ran in cycles and we were headed for another Ice Age.

I remember that as well, though vaguely.  I don’t think there was the breadth of empirical evidence, for that, that there is today, re: global warming, which, apparently, has been clearly shown to actually be occurring (not just that we are headed for it - we are in it). 

BTW, just for everyone’s clarification, if needed: Global warming is not exactly the same thing as climate change.  Climate change is a product of global warming, just as climate change would be a product of global cooling, if that were occurring. Different parts of the world have different climates.  More recently, another topic has become prominent: extreme weather events.  There are many different kinds of weather events. [If local climates are changing, then logically, one can deduce that weather will be different than it has been in some ways for those localities.  It does not necessarily follow that global warming will lead to a global net effect of more and unusually intense and broadly varying weather events compared to the number, intensity and variance of weather events that occurred when the Earth (as a whole) was cooler.]  I say all this, because I think it is important to be precise when making assertions about these topics, because the anthropogenic-global-warming-deniers will grasp at anything to support their claim that it is all just a bunch of bunk.

[ Edited: 03 March 2014 09:05 PM by TimB ]
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As a fabrication of our own consciousness, our assignations of meaning are no less “real”, but since humans and the fabrications of our consciousness are routinely fraught with error, it makes sense, to me, to, sometimes, question such fabrications.

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Posted: 03 March 2014 10:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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VYAZMA - 03 March 2014 07:46 PM

What are NSA bankers?
If that stands for what I think it does then that’s ridiculous.

Two years ago on the NSA website under job opportunities was the opening for up to 8,000 investment bankers or retired bankers to work for the NSA.
I know three friends who have been teaching in China for the last decade and they were all teaching the american banking system and methods to China bankers.

What is not well known is that the NSA has changed the whole structural makeup of China by bringing them into the world market. They are the reason we are able to get products from China at such cheep rates.
The NSA has done one hell-ave job in China and the rest of Asia. This is not talked about much, the exact number is not known, but it has been stated that up to 100,000 business in China are owned by Tawian/NSA.

Almost all major U.S. companies have NSA members on the Boards of Directors. Most committees that report to congress also have members. Most presidents have also been members of the NSA. We know this because most presidents have been on the Media committee that controls the Media data that can be harmful to the public.

I am not saying this is bad at all. Many of the NSA members are specialist in their field of education. The idea seems to be that the NSA uses top professors and people to help make decisions that effect the U.S. and the world. They work for our major colleges and universities. Working for the NSA is task driven. Finish the operation and wait for the next call. It is not like a full time job. Some companies that are NSA owned and operated are managed so well that the workers don’t even know who their real employer are.

I should explain that there are what, nineteen secret departments. Most are not known by the public. So we will use “NSA” to cover all the departments. 

It has been said by a couple of congressmen that the NSA/CIA’s budget is as large as all the rest of the military combined.

What does an NSA banker do?
They sit on the boards of major companies. Especially the companies with many overseas offices. They help the companies with international banking.
Another example is when Chili was leaning towards Communism the president appointed members to open investments from U.S. companies to invest in Chili. The companies invested over 100M and lost every dime. It was all just an NSA operation. The same thing was redone with the countries that broke away from Russia.

How else could the United States legally give money to political parties in other countries.

The U.S. has equipped armies in other countries, this is all done by the NSA.

Do you remember the Canada oil being marketed to China and that Robertson went to Canada and talked them out of selling to China? Robertson was also working for the NSA, and he is Petty’s boss in the Chinese bond market.
They are all very smart people working for the NSA.
There is no way some elected official could ever make the right choices on international problems or ever get anything done without the NSA.
The NSA is what keeps the world banking system working.

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Posted: 03 March 2014 10:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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Fuzzy Logic - 03 March 2014 03:31 PM

while it has slowed in recent years due to complex factors like unforced variability in the south pacific, climate change and global warming are still under way and will be for years even if we stop all CO2 emissions and other positive forcings right now.

There’s a lot of good debunking here.

https://www.skepticalscience.com/

I also disagree that the current trend in America towards a security state should be answered by turning the country over to a de facto aristocracy. The answer is more involvement by US citizens not less as the Kochs and other like them almost certainly want.

Don’t fall into the trap.
Warming has not slowed by any means when the entire global heat distribution system is taken into consideration.

For some of the details

Global warming is unpaused and stuck on fast forward, new research shows

Posted on 10 December 2013 by dana1981
http://www.skepticalscience.com/global-warming-fast-forward-trenberth.html


New research by Kevin Trenberth and John Fasullo of the National Center for Atmospheric Research investigates how the warming of the Earth’s climate has behaved over the past 15 years compared with the previous few decades. They conclude that while the rate of increase of average global surface temperatures has slowed since 1998, melting of Arctic ice, rising sea levels, and warming oceans have continued apace.

The widespread mainstream media focus on the slowed global surface warming has led some climate scientists like Trenberth and Fasullo to investigate its causes and how much various factors have contributed to the so-called ‘pause’ or ‘hiatus.’ However, the authors note that while the increase in global temperatures has slowed, the oceans have taken up heat at a faster rate since the turn of the century. Over 90 percent of the overall extra heat goes into the oceans, with only about 2 percent heating the Earth’s atmosphere. The myth of the ‘pause’ is based on ignoring 98 percent of global warming and focusing exclusively on the one bit that’s slowed.

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Posted: 03 March 2014 10:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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TimB - 03 March 2014 08:39 PM
MikeYohe - 03 March 2014 08:09 PM

...
Science is getting better and better all the time. I remember when the story was that the earth ran in cycles and we were headed for another Ice Age.

I remember that as well, though vaguely.  I don’t think there was the breadth of empirical evidence, for that, that there is today, re: global warming, which, apparently, has been clearly shown to actually be occurring (not just that we are headed for it - we are in it).

Yes it’s true Earth’s temperature has been constrained by Milankovitch Cycles for many, many millions of years

http://www.indiana.edu/~geol105/images/gaia_chapter_4/milankovitch.htm

According to deep time rhythms, our planet’s long term trend was cooling -
but human societies increasing our planet’s atmospheric insulation layer/ability has turned all that around.  The Earth’s future is now, thanks to anthropogenic drivers, warming like it hasn’t experience in eons.  With it’s accompanying sea level rise and weather upheaval - sure we are now just feeling the first shock waves, don’t kid your selves as the decades roll by this geophysical experiment is going to do nothing but gain steam.

Climate Change 2013: The Physical Science Basis
https://www.ipcc.ch/report/ar5/wg1/

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Posted: 03 March 2014 10:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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Oh that brings us back to the Koch bros and the problem, and some of the defensive comments made above.

The problem is using deception and dirty tricks and the rich man’s mega-phone to drown out
real world serious information every dang thinking citizen should have been learning about.

Replacing objective learning with ruthless misinformation for personal success regardless of social impacts

The ruthless use of dirty tricks and lies to fool the masses into believing total bull poop about the state of our planet
and what our greedily little human society is doing to our own global life support system.

===========


The most ironically tragic part of America’s whole social unraveling is that lefties and righties need each other to keep each other honest.
One side is hopeless without the counter balance of the other !

That’s the thing that our founding father’s appreciated and what made our early government such a lasting success.

That’s been replaced with that idiot notion that winning is everything and that “I’m” always right.

… and that learning about the facts honestly is considered an enemy to a business agenda, so becomes a political target for destruction.
disgusting…


Sometimes pondering the waste get’s so f’n depressing I get sick and can barely stand it.
Good thing I got hyper attention syndrome and there are plenty of beautiful aspects of this life and earth still remaining and I’m going to try and enjoy them till they or me are gone.  And both those futures are coming down the line.

[ Edited: 03 March 2014 11:06 PM by citizenschallenge.pm ]
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Posted: 04 March 2014 08:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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citizenschallenge.pm - 03 March 2014 10:59 PM

The ruthless use of dirty tricks and lies to fool the masses into believing total bull poop about the state of our planet
and what our greedily little human society is doing to our own global life support system.


The most ironically tragic part of America’s whole social unraveling is that lefties and righties need each other to keep each other honest.
One side is hopeless without the counter balance of the other !

What I found was interesting when studying religion, was that our older religions recognized “Greed” as a major human flaw and it was built into the religions to combat “Greed”. The Egyptians had to rebalance the earth every 20 to 30 years because of “Greed”. Re-balancing was to redistribute the land and wealth, mostly from the government departments (temples). So greed is something that must run in every generation.  Jesus talked about greed but it was pretty much left out of the Christian religions.

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Posted: 04 March 2014 08:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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citizenschallenge.pm - 03 March 2014 10:59 PM

Oh that brings us back to the Koch bros and the problem, and some of the defensive comments made above.

The problem is using deception and dirty tricks and the rich man’s mega-phone to drown out
real world serious information every dang thinking citizen should have been learning about.

I don’t think your looking at the “big” picture. No body in power cares about a couple of brothers making a billion dollars. Trillions of dollars are changing hands every day.  What the brothers can do by political influence is hardly a drop in the bucket. I agree that money is power, but those that control the secret courts and the data and print the money have the “REAL” power.

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Posted: 04 March 2014 09:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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MikeYohe - 04 March 2014 08:33 AM
citizenschallenge.pm - 03 March 2014 10:59 PM

Oh that brings us back to the Koch bros and the problem, and some of the defensive comments made above.

The problem is using deception and dirty tricks and the rich man’s mega-phone to drown out
real world serious information every dang thinking citizen should have been learning about.

I don’t think your looking at the “big” picture. No body in power cares about a couple of brothers making a billion dollars. Trillions of dollars are changing hands every day.  What the brothers can do by political influence is hardly a drop in the bucket. I agree that money is power, but those that control the secret courts and the data and print the money have the “REAL” power.

Dude look at the whole global warming denial campaign - it has stalled all substantive action to reduce greenhouse gas injections into our atmosphere -
That delay has nothing to do with understanding serious science and everything to do with vast fortunes privately funding malicious campaigns of disinformation and political manipulation.

See ALEX
http://www.alecexposed.org/wiki/ALEC_Exposed

and

Manufacturing Doubt
January 17, 2010 by climate sight
http://climatesight.org/2010/01/17/manufacturing-doubt/

etc., etc.

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Posted: 04 March 2014 10:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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citizenschallenge.pm - 04 March 2014 09:10 AM

Dude look at the whole global warming denial campaign - it has stalled all substantive action to reduce greenhouse gas injections into our atmosphere -
That delay has nothing to do with understanding serious science and everything to do with vast fortunes privately funding malicious campaigns of disinformation and political manipulation.

I checked out the website. The Koch brothers are much richer, they are more like trillion airs than billionaires. Checking them out on Wikipedia gives an overall picture of their goals. Their work has been outside of my interests or I should have heard of them before.
 
If I had to pick Koch or the CMD, I would have to go with Koch. Reason is the pipeline. America needs the pipeline. It is that simple.
 
Have you been following the energy policies for the United States? I heard the Government is going to start building nuclear power plants again. This is so they can lower the carbon going into the air.
 
Took a trip across country a few months back and I was surprised by the number of big wind mills I saw.

I am not sold on “Global Warming” yet. But, the carbon in the air needs to be addressed.
 
Today an article about a 200 year drought that ended the Indus Valley Civilization was published.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/04/drought-doomed-indus-valley_n_4895673.html

If a lack of monsoons did spell the end of the Indus Valley civilization, says Hodell, “it is an example — and there are other examples of this — of how ancient societies have had to contend with climate. There are some lessons for us and our future, in which we will have to deal with anthropogenic climate change”.
an•thro•po•gen•ic
ˌanTHrəpōˈjenik/Submit
adjective

1.
(chiefly of environmental pollution and pollutants) originating in human activity.
“anthropogenic emissions of sulfur dioxide”

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Posted: 04 March 2014 04:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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MikeYohe - 03 March 2014 05:14 PM
Fuzzy Logic - 03 March 2014 03:44 PM

What the Kochs and others are doing is just part of a broader system that is in a slow state of tearing itself apart, what we see as crisises are just inevitable results of such destructive behaviour.

So the questions becomes, why support people and organizations who are working for such a destructive purpose?

I cannot go into these issues.

Reason is that I have studied the system and I do not know how to tell you how the system operates without seeming like I am out in left field.

The best thing I can tell you is to study the life of the NSA Bankers over the last fifty years. The NSA banker I found most interesting was John R. Petty. Following the life time career of an NSA Banker will show you how the government got involved in the Media and Banking.

It will take you into the Economic Warfare that has been going on since WW1.
 
Taiwan has been a NSA banking asset for years to conduct the Economic Warfare with China. If you research what the United States has done to the Formosa people since WWII then you will see how the NSA Bankers puts Economic Warfare over the rights and living conditions of the people.
 
There is no such thing as to big to fail. The big banks are partnered with the Government and have NSA bankers on their boards. This was started by J.P. Morgan and evolved into the Midland Bank as just one example.
   
The banks committed thousands and thousands of felonies in the housing market alone, yet none went to jail. When you understand the Economic Warfare then you will understand how the system works and why things like this can happen when there is no oversight and everything is done in secrecy.

The system is not run by people like the Koch Brothers, it is being run by NSA bankers like John R. Petty.

I think the situation is far more complex than that and has evolved from a desire of a few people to control the system, the Rockefellers are definitely a part of it, but it also includes defence contractors, the energy sector, big media and more. It is a closed shop to a great degree, but I seriously doubt there’s one script they’re operating under except the driving force of pretty much uncontrolled greed right now. The Kochs are just as much a part of that as anyone as are the Walton kids who together have a net financial worth of over $80 billion while their employees are making $8 an hour and are prevented from organizing for better wages, benefits, conditions etc…

The answer isn’t picking the greedy pig we like best, it’s changing the rules so the greedy pigs have to consider the rights and needs of the people who they are supposedly serving.

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Posted: 04 March 2014 04:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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MikeYohe - 03 March 2014 08:09 PM
TimB - 03 March 2014 07:12 PM

In regards to atmospheric Carbon Dioxide levels, we humans, have, ignorantly, been moving very fast.  Since 1950 the atmospheric levels have been greater than any time in the past 625,000 years.  And since 1950 the continuing rate of increase is straight up.


Science is getting better and better all the time. I remember when the story was that the earth ran in cycles and we were headed for another Ice Age.

You’re right on the carbon foot print. But what I hate seeing is that we shoot ourselves in the foot and then complain because we can’t walk. We should take it slow and do the proper fix.
 
The proper fix to me would be to change to geothermal energy.  And I mean deep hole, high temperature energy.  Those temperatures start at 1,200 degrees and go up. Pure energy.
But, today that’s not even being talked about. Why? I would guess it is not a field that requires much science so NASA is not going there.
 
Here something the scientist are working on.
http://northdenvernews.com/co2-to-methanol-a-new-lost-catalyst-peak-oil-climate-change/

It’s not that simple, by altering the geological structure of many areas it possible to create more problems than you solve.

In my opinion the only real alternative we have now is nuclear power which comes with it’s own set of dangers and complications.

And I think we have a lot less time to react than most people think, it may already be too late to prevent a system wide ecological collapse when you consider what is going on in the oceans alone.

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Posted: 04 March 2014 05:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
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MikeYohe - 04 March 2014 10:38 AM

If I had to pick Koch or the CMD, I would have to go with Koch. Reason is the pipeline. America needs the pipeline. It is that simple.

How do America’s energy policies justify the insanity of the Keystone tar sands project, plus it’s shipping thing and the pipeline???

America needs that pipeline, like a fish needs a bicycle!

http://citizenschallenge.blogspot.com/2014/03/marcia-mcnutts-ill-considered.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Besides don’t you appreciate that future spending focus isn’t going to be on infrastructure development?
from here on in, we will be seeing an increasing shift of resources to disaster response and rebuilding efforts?

The brave new world is here as an awareness of the global situation makes obvious?

Yet the GOP continues doing everything to ignore the obvious… pathetic as pathetic get’s, but they gotta hold on to their power so they couldn’t care less about what’s happening - because that would demand big changes.

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Posted: 04 March 2014 07:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
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That’s right CC! It’s a race to sell every last drop of oil. It would be no different if the vast majority of the world
were heroin addicts and opium was in the ground. They* would be drilling every last drop out of the ground.

The Democrats are just as bad.

It’s not “they” though.  It’s we. Most of us buy gasoline and motor oil and carpets and paints etc…
So we are drilling for oil.

The Keystone Pipeline is just another diseased syringe to satisfy the addiction of the world.

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Row row row your boat gently down the stream.  Merrily Merrily merrily merrily life is but a dream!

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Posted: 04 March 2014 08:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
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citizenschallenge.pm - 04 March 2014 05:35 PM

America needs that pipeline, like a fish needs a bicycle!
Yet the GOP continues doing everything to ignore the obvious… pathetic as pathetic get’s, but they gotta hold on to their power so they couldn’t care less about what’s happening - because that would demand big changes.

If you have ever bought gas for a car, taken a shower, or cooked a meal, then chances are you have used products delivered by pipelines. Pipelines are by far the safest and cheapest way to move products there is today.
 
When thing get bad, people start looking who should be blamed.  And naturally it is the rich. Didn’t they just do this same thing in Venezuela last year?
 
What do you think the tax increases has been since the Democrats took office?
 
What has the national debt done since the Democrats took office?
   
Yet you call the GOP pathetic.
   
I would like to do all these great things for the earth and the people, but we have reached the limit on how much people can be taxed and still want to work.
 
I hear you when you think the government is moving to slow. Who do you think created the methods to slow projects down?  The high speed rail from LA to Las Vegas is in its 26 year of environmental studies.
   
In California, Governor Jerry Brown took office and wanted to spend some of the Federal money by building a new LA Convention Center and Stadium. Was going to create 8,000 new jobs. He even passed a new law that would put all the lawsuits on top of the pile in the California court system. The lawyers said that would help, it would only take 8 years to start building instead of 20 years. The kicker is that most of these laws that allowed the lawsuits were made law when Jerry Brown was governor some years back and he passed them to clobber the GOP projects.

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