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Posted: 04 March 2014 08:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
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I agree that we are all part of the problem.  The statement “The Democrats are just as bad.” however, I have difficulty with.  In regards to this particular problem, it seems to me that would be like saying CitizensChallenge is just as bad as, say, Ted Cruz.  I don’t buy that.  CC, as all of us Democrats, may be ineffectual in addressing the problem, but he knows it IS a problem and speaks out against it.  While someone like Ted Cruz would deny the problem and promote policies to make it worse.

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Posted: 04 March 2014 08:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
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MikeYohe - 04 March 2014 08:09 PM

 
...What has the national debt done since the Democrats took office?
   
Yet you call the GOP pathetic…
   

The Gross National Debt as a % of the GDP was relatively stable under Roosevelt (Democrat) until WWII.  I think WWII was a pretty good excuse for it peaking under his administration.  Since then it went down under Truman (Democrat), Eisenhower (Republican), Kennedy (Democrat), LBJ (Democrat),  Nixon (Republican), Ford (Republican), Carter (Democrat).  THEN, it went up HORRIBLY under Reagan (Republican), and Bush, Sr. (Republican).  It went down under Clinton (Democrat).  It went up HORRIBLY under Bush, Jr (Republican) who also left Obama with the worst economy since the Great Depression, and it has consequently gone up HORRIBLY under Obama (Democrat). 

So, all in all, if you simply want to use national debt as the criteria, yes, since, and INCLUDING Reagan, the GOP has been pathetic.

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As a fabrication of our own consciousness, our assignations of meaning are no less “real”, but since humans and the fabrications of our consciousness are routinely fraught with error, it makes sense, to me, to, sometimes, question such fabrications.

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Posted: 05 March 2014 08:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
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MikeYohe - 04 March 2014 08:09 PM

Yet you call the GOP pathetic.

Let me be more exact.

The ruthless attack on and suppression of sound scientific facts are what’s pathetic, and as we are starting to see, quite counterproductive.

And yes I appreciate all of us are in this.  I love a full grocery store and gas station as much as anyone.

My resentment of the GOP machine rests on a few points:

The Reaganomics notion that Greed is Good
The Reaganomics notion that Regulations are Bad
The Reaganomics notion that Growth can be Endless
The Reaganomics notion that short term gain is more important that long term planning and preparation


The general notion that if you’re not with us your against us

The elevation of personal/religious challenges (reproduction freedom and sexual preference, etc.) into major political issues they have no right to be.
When we should be worrying about way more relevant issues, such as sustainable economy, dealing with the consequences our geophysical global warming experiment, infrastructure maintenance, etc.

But, no let’s create hot button emotional issues to occupy the sheeple . . . .

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Posted: 05 March 2014 08:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
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TimB - 04 March 2014 08:10 PM

I agree that we are all part of the problem.  The statement “The Democrats are just as bad.” however, I have difficulty with.  In regards to this particular problem, it seems to me that would be like saying CitizensChallenge is just as bad as, say, Ted Cruz.  I don’t buy that.  CC, as all of us Democrats, may be ineffectual in addressing the problem, but he knows it IS a problem and speaks out against it.  While someone like Ted Cruz would deny the problem and promote policies to make it worse.

Well also contextually that depends on if CC is even a Democrat.
It also depends on the the power that CC has and the power Ted Cruz has.

I said the Dems are just as bad.  Whether you mean actual Democratic lawmakers or just garden variety Dem or GOP voters.
If you want to get picky I suppose you could show that GOP lawmakers or voters are slightly to moderately more worse.
That’s not the point. At this point in the game, oil is a world wide commodity that is being influenced by people from around the world.
That and the fact that humans are literally addicted to oil. If oil went away abruptly civilization as we know it would cease to exist.

So the GOP is like a heroin dealer who sells to kids and people of all colors shapes and sizes. Sells cheap!!
The Dems are like the dealer who tries to convince his junky customers that they need to get help. He sells a little more expensive.

That’s just the US. Other countries have their own “Oil Slingers” and everyone is getting high on oil one way or another!
Dems, GOP, Socialists, Mao Maos, Conservatives, Green, SDs, Christians, Muslims, etc etc..

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Posted: 05 March 2014 10:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
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Continuing with the analogy that we are all hopelessly addicted to heroin, I would say that we would be better off, in general, if the heroin is expensive.

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Posted: 05 March 2014 11:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
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TimB - 04 March 2014 08:56 PM


So, all in all, if you simply want to use national debt as the criteria, yes, since, and INCLUDING Reagan, the GOP has been pathetic.

It’s not that the GOP is any better than the democrats. It’s that neither party has the right to throw stones or to blame the other party for being the bad guy that got us where we are today. The voter’s choice seems to be able to vote for the less evil. The Media is always crushing the guy or other parties who really wants what’s best for the nation.

It’s like once the congressman gets to DC they have to join the “system” to be able to raise funds for the next campaign.

What i would like to see is that when they vote in congress, they can not change the vote that the public sees. They vote one way, yet there record show they voted another way.
Isn’t that a whole lot like “lying”?

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Posted: 05 March 2014 04:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
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Reducing or eliminating gerrymandering would be helpful.

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All the Gods and all religions are created by humans, to meet human needs and accomplish human ends.

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Posted: 05 March 2014 04:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
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garythehuman - 05 March 2014 04:04 PM

Reducing or eliminating gerrymandering would be helpful.

I agree.  But then, since the Dick Cheney/and his sock puppet George W. administration, I have been a dedicated Democrat.

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Posted: 05 March 2014 10:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
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VYAZMA - 05 March 2014 08:56 AM

Well also contextually that depends on if CC is even a Democrat.

started Democrat
Did a lot of volunteering for that WWII Air Force Bomber pilot who ran for President in 1972.
Went unaffiliated . . .
Returned to Democrat a few elections back so that I could participate in the Caucus process and become a delegate at the state convention…
related to my No Village At Wolf Creek advocacy   cheese
http://no-villageatwolfcreek.blogspot.com

{Which incidentally, is about to hit the fan again}
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sorry but, seems to me, there is a substantive difference between Dems and Reps political machines.

I’d like to see examples of the Democrats having anything near what the Republican machine has achieved with it’s network of Global Warming Denial Think-Tanks, churning out material for that right wing (read Murdoch et al.) world media outlets and the ruthless misrepresentation of the science including consistent out and out lying about basic unassailable facts.

[ Edited: 05 March 2014 10:33 PM by citizenschallenge.pm ]
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Posted: 06 March 2014 02:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
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citizenschallenge.pm - 03 March 2014 10:35 PM
Fuzzy Logic - 03 March 2014 03:31 PM

while it has slowed in recent years due to complex factors like unforced variability in the south pacific, climate change and global warming are still under way and will be for years even if we stop all CO2 emissions and other positive forcings right now.

There’s a lot of good debunking here.

https://www.skepticalscience.com/

I also disagree that the current trend in America towards a security state should be answered by turning the country over to a de facto aristocracy. The answer is more involvement by US citizens not less as the Kochs and other like them almost certainly want.

Don’t fall into the trap.
Warming has not slowed by any means when the entire global heat distribution system is taken into consideration.

For some of the details

Global warming is unpaused and stuck on fast forward, new research shows

Posted on 10 December 2013 by dana1981
http://www.skepticalscience.com/global-warming-fast-forward-trenberth.html


New research by Kevin Trenberth and John Fasullo of the National Center for Atmospheric Research investigates how the warming of the Earth’s climate has behaved over the past 15 years compared with the previous few decades. They conclude that while the rate of increase of average global surface temperatures has slowed since 1998, melting of Arctic ice, rising sea levels, and warming oceans have continued apace.

The widespread mainstream media focus on the slowed global surface warming has led some climate scientists like Trenberth and Fasullo to investigate its causes and how much various factors have contributed to the so-called ‘pause’ or ‘hiatus.’ However, the authors note that while the increase in global temperatures has slowed, the oceans have taken up heat at a faster rate since the turn of the century. Over 90 percent of the overall extra heat goes into the oceans, with only about 2 percent heating the Earth’s atmosphere. The myth of the ‘pause’ is based on ignoring 98 percent of global warming and focusing exclusively on the one bit that’s slowed.

Thanks, that makes a lot of sense. Warming of the atmosphere is much more variable as its thermal capacity is so much lower than the oceans, by a factor of 1,000 I think.

The loss of Arctic sea ice alone is going to significantly alter the pace of change as methane clathrates are released from warming polar deposits and instead of reflecting most incoming solar radiation from the pack ice, the open sea water of the Arctic Ocean will absorb most of the sunlight during summer.

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Posted: 06 March 2014 02:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]
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citizenschallenge.pm - 05 March 2014 10:31 PM
VYAZMA - 05 March 2014 08:56 AM

Well also contextually that depends on if CC is even a Democrat.

started Democrat
Did a lot of volunteering for that WWII Air Force Bomber pilot who ran for President in 1972.
Went unaffiliated . . .
Returned to Democrat a few elections back so that I could participate in the Caucus process and become a delegate at the state convention…
related to my No Village At Wolf Creek advocacy   cheese
http://no-villageatwolfcreek.blogspot.com

{Which incidentally, is about to hit the fan again}
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sorry but, seems to me, there is a substantive difference between Dems and Reps political machines.

I’d like to see examples of the Democrats having anything near what the Republican machine has achieved with it’s network of Global Warming Denial Think-Tanks, churning out material for that right wing (read Murdoch et al.) world media outlets and the ruthless misrepresentation of the science including consistent out and out lying about basic unassailable facts.

If you want an example of how twisted the democratic system has become you just have to look at the 1972 race and how the Republicans used every dirty trick they could to win. McGovern was a decorated war hero and did a complete tour in B-24s out of Italy and yet he was a coward according to Nixon’s camp. Nixon on the other hand served as a glorified military travel agent during the war.

The reason that the system is so messed up in the US and other places is that people like Nixon(and Harper here) are allowed to hijack the democratic process and impose agendas most people don’t understand let alone want. The far right seems much more intent on and skilled at doing this. The latest drive is the program to limit voter fraud in the US which hits mostly Democratic supporters.

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Posted: 06 March 2014 06:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]
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Fuzzy Logic - 06 March 2014 02:18 PM

[... The latest drive is the program to limit voter fraud in the US which hits mostly Democratic supporters.

Tell me about it.  We just had a primary in Texas with the newly installed picture ID requirement. There have been problems for women, who due to marriage or divorce, have a name that does not exactly match their voter registration. They can’t straight-up vote.  They have to sign an affidavit and who knows when or if their vote will actually be counted.  And forget about disabled people or people too poor to have a car and thus need a driver’s license.  There are ways around this but may not always be easy for such persons to acquire an accepted picture ID. (BTW, a concealed (gun) carry license is accepted.)

At least, we can rest easy that the rampant (by that I mean virtually non-existent) problem of voter fraud is solved.

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Posted: 07 March 2014 11:17 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]
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citizenschallenge.pm - 05 March 2014 08:36 AM

My resentment of the GOP machine rests on a few points:
The Reaganomics notion that Greed is Good
The Reaganomics notion that Regulations are Bad
The Reaganomics notion that Growth can be Endless
The Reaganomics notion that short term gain is more important that long term planning and preparation

CC,
When Regan took office he took the reports from the government departments and had people who ran larger U.S. companies review these reports. His findings were that the numbers and data from the U.S. department or congress data was misleading or wrong, that is if he could even get the reports at all in a timely manner. Regan ended up having the reports vented by none governmental sources before he could use them.
 
If Regan was alive today he would tell you that you don’t understand Reganomics.
 
Instead of pointing fingers and assigning blame, Regan concentrated on fixing the problems the best he could. And instead of fighting with Russia, he made friends.
 
Maybe that what we should do here.
 
Maybe we should not trust the government departments who have a history of misleading the data for financial reasons without venting them first.

citizenschallenge.pm - 05 March 2014 08:36 AM

The ruthless attack on and suppression of sound scientific facts are what’s pathetic, and as we are starting to see, quite counterproductive.

The carbon is without question. We need to work on that.
 
Global Warming is in question. The numbers that were given to us by the scientist of what we were to expect over the next several decades is turning out to be wrong. That is a big red flag. If we ignore the red flags, then we are acting out of popular movement and not out of scientific reasoning.
   
Now I understand that the carbon in the air is supposed to cause the Global Warming. But if the carbon in the air is not matching the increase in temperature that was told to us by the scientist. Then maybe the scientist need to retest the theory.
 
Check out some of the stories being written today.
 
Feb 24-14 Forbes. “The Period of No Global Warming will soon be longer than the period of Actual Global Warming”.  http://www.forbes.com/sites/peterferrara/2014/02/24/the-period-of-no-global-warming-will-soon-be-longer-than-the-period-of-actual-global-warming/
 
No global warming for 17 years and 5 months.
 
After the winter of 49’ the spring storm that killed hundreds of thousands of animals in the western United States. Six to ten feet of snow where there had never been over two feet at that time of year in history. The scientist were all talking about the earth headed into an Ice Age.
 
The big push is being done politically. You better follow the money on the “Carbon Tax Credits” to see who is behind this political movement. I do agree that we need to reduce the carbon, but both parties should be in agreement on what is good for the earth. If you are under the notion that the coal owners don’t have the ability to move into wind or solar, you are wrong. We will just have an excess of coal that will be shipped outside of the United States and burnt in other countries while we use the more expensive energy sources here.

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Posted: 07 March 2014 02:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]
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TimB - 06 March 2014 06:58 PM
Fuzzy Logic - 06 March 2014 02:18 PM

[... The latest drive is the program to limit voter fraud in the US which hits mostly Democratic supporters.

Tell me about it.  We just had a primary in Texas with the newly installed picture ID requirement. There have been problems for women, who due to marriage or divorce, have a name that does not exactly match their voter registration. They can’t straight-up vote.  They have to sign an affidavit and who knows when or if their vote will actually be counted.  And forget about disabled people or people too poor to have a car and thus need a driver’s license.  There are ways around this but may not always be easy for such persons to acquire an accepted picture ID. (BTW, a concealed (gun) carry license is accepted.)

At least, we can rest easy that the rampant (by that I mean virtually non-existent) problem of voter fraud is solved.

From what I know about it up to 20 million Americans may be affected, most from the less affluent part of the country and who are much less likely to support the Republicans. All this for something like 80 cases of identified voter fraud in the 2008 election.

Meanwhile people like the Kochs can effectively buy elections and put people like Scott Walker into office to basically do their bidding.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/23/scott-walker-buffalo-beast-phone-prank_n_827058.html

[ Edited: 07 March 2014 04:18 PM by Fuzzy Logic ]
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Posted: 08 March 2014 05:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]
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MikeYohe - 07 March 2014 11:17 AM

 
If Regan was alive today he would tell you that you don’t understand Reganomics.

Snippets from Wikipedia after a quick search:
Since 1980, U.S. gross domestic product (GDP) per capita has increased 67%, while median(Median!!) household income has only increased by 15%

According to the Congressional Budget Office, between 1979 and 2007 incomes of the top 1% of Americans grew by an average of 275%.

Yes, most people didn’t understand Reaganomics…until it was too late.

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