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Is this racism?
Posted: 12 March 2014 12:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
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Actually, most of them never assimilate, which is why Markel announced a few years back that “multiculturalism has utterly failed.” It is usually the second generation that causes problems, as they are not really sure where they belong. They don’t fully associate with their parents’ countries of origin and they don’t feel accepted by the society they now find themselves living in. No idea where you’re getting this “complete assimilation” from, VYAZMA.

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Posted: 12 March 2014 01:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
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George - 12 March 2014 12:39 PM

Actually, most of them never assimilate, which is why Markel announced a few years back that “multiculturalism has utterly failed.” It is usually the second generation that causes problems, as they are not really sure where they belong. They don’t fully associate with their parents’ countries of origin and they don’t feel accepted by the society they now find themselves living in. No idea where you’re getting this “complete assimilation” from, VYAZMA.

I assume you mean Angela Merkel. Hardly a scholarly opinion, obviously a political one.

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Posted: 12 March 2014 02:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
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George - 12 March 2014 12:39 PM

Actually, most of them never assimilate, which is why Markel announced a few years back that “multiculturalism has utterly failed.” It is usually the second generation that causes problems, as they are not really sure where they belong. They don’t fully associate with their parents’ countries of origin and they don’t feel accepted by the society they now find themselves living in. No idea where you’re getting this “complete assimilation” from, VYAZMA.

Seriously George? You say that actually most of them never assimilate?
Oh, I don’t know where I’m getting it from….
Maybe the entire United States and it’s well documented history of immigration culture.
The Irish, the Italians, the Germans, the Iranians, Iraqis, Japanese, Chinese, Mexican, etc etc etc..
I’ve seen all of these and many more, in many instances and they all pretty much fit in and felt accepted by society.
They certainly embraced American Culture and jumped into the homologous culture-everything from food to nationalism.

edit: I forgot the Slavs too.  And I’m from Buffalo…oops.
The Polish, The Ukrainians, The Russians, The Czechs. They assimilated real good too.
They still do.  All of them do.

[ Edited: 12 March 2014 03:37 PM by VYAZMA ]
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Posted: 12 March 2014 02:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
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Yeah, well, just wait and see all the Mexicans waving the U.S. during the FIFA cup this summer.

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Posted: 12 March 2014 03:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
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George - 12 March 2014 02:44 PM

Yeah, well, just wait and see all the Mexicans waving the U.S. during the FIFA cup this summer.

Ha ha ha. Nothings perfect George.
National identity dynamics change over time. especially regionally. If anything this is a model of assimilation.
The WASPs hated the Irish when they came to this country. Now the Irish are considered part of the backbone of America.

But back to your flag thing…yeah, everybody maintains some of their heritage and identity. That’s part of it. Especially in America.
I remember a few weeks ago you chided us with bonhomie about the US vs. The Czechs in Olympic Hockey.

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Posted: 12 March 2014 03:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
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I am a fist generation immigrant, don’t forgot that. My kids are Canadian and I would never try to make them feel they are not (they speak some Spanish, but no Czech). Not that it matters all that much what I do. My kids are white, and just like the kids of the Irish immigrants assimilate immediately.

I cannot say the same thing about my friends who are from Ecuador and their oldest son is the same age as my oldest son who is 13. It’s really rather a sad thing, but the Ecuadorian-looking boy’s social life is very different from my son’s. I don’t know if you have kids, but I have noticed that children are the worst racists. You look different, you are automatically excluded. Not much any one of us can do about it. So what does my fiends’ son do? He mingles with other second (!) generation Hispanic kids. He is now starting to speak with a “gang” accent, dresses like them and tries to pretty much mimic all the behaviour of his pears. That’s what kids do. He’ll never date the “hot-looking blonde” at his high school, nor will he ever get a chance to befriend the “cool” kids. He’ll probably end up marrying a Hispanic girl and even his kids will never be fully accepted by the whites. His parents are now seriously debating if they should move back to South America before it is too late.

So, yeah, no idea what you are talking about.

P.S. I just realized that my friends, just like Markel, are not “scholars,” so maybe they are making the whole thing up.

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Posted: 12 March 2014 03:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
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BTW, if anyone is interested in a “scholarly opinion” on second generation immigrants in Europe, read Scott Atran’s latest book (doesn’t get much more scholarly than that). He says pretty much the same thing as Markel.

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Posted: 12 March 2014 04:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
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George - 12 March 2014 03:48 PM

So, yeah, no idea what you are talking about.

Well George that’s anecdotal at best. Nothings perfect. Nor should it be.
Perhaps you don’t know what I’m talking about due to your particular circumstances.
Perhaps you see yourself as an outsider in Canada, thus looking at the culture through jaded eyes. I don’t know.
I’ve noticed your views on culture seem to be “eccentric” at times. Perhaps too subjective.
You don’t strike me as someone who understands Western Culture completely. And that’s ok.
But it could be jading your views. Maybe you haven’t fully assimilated.
Probably because you went to Canada. snake
That was a joke.

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Posted: 12 March 2014 04:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
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I think I understand the Western culture just fine. Anyway, although what I wrote here is just one personal story, I can assure you I have many more. Plus, there is enough data to prove that Markel is right.

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Posted: 12 March 2014 04:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
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George - 12 March 2014 04:11 PM

I think I understand the Western culture just fine. Anyway, although what I wrote here is just one personal story, I can assure you I have many more. Plus, there is enough data to prove that Markel is right.

Whatever Bro. There’s hundreds of millions if not billions of other examples which say you and this Markel are wrong.
I told you about those quasi-science books. They’re horrendous. They are poisoning your mind.
But whatever.

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Posted: 12 March 2014 04:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]
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George - 12 March 2014 12:39 PM

Actually, most of them never assimilate, which is why Markel announced a few years back that “multiculturalism has utterly failed.” It is usually the second generation that causes problems, as they are not really sure where they belong. They don’t fully associate with their parents’ countries of origin and they don’t feel accepted by the society they now find themselves living in. No idea where you’re getting this “complete assimilation” from, VYAZMA.

What are you claiming here?

I was born here 50 years ago and have seen this country go through huge changes, many due to our increasing diversity. There is no static social model to assimilate to, Canada like any place is evolving as it grows and that includes from the influences that come from outside.

If new arrivals don’t find a place in Canadian society where they are comfortable they often create a new one.

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Posted: 12 March 2014 04:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]
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You are right: we have many “societies” around GTA, created by people who didn’t feel all that comfortable by loving their racially different neighbours. West is white, east is Asian, north GTA is Indian (dot, not feather) and north Toronto is Black. The questions is what will happen when we run out of space. Though, it has already begun to happen: the Indians are moving west and the whites are leaving. I guess you are not from GTA (?).

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Posted: 12 March 2014 05:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]
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George - 12 March 2014 04:39 PM

You are right: we have many “societies” around GTA, created by people who didn’t feel all that comfortable by loving their racially different neighbours. West is white, east is Asian, north GTA is Indian (dot, not feather) and north Toronto is Black. The questions is what will happen when we run out of space. Though, it has already begun to happen: the Indians are moving west and the whites are leaving. I guess you are not from GTA (?).

No, I’m in Edmonton. It’s a lot more mixed than that, the outlying communities may have more of a traditional racial make-up, but Edmonton itself is a real melting pot. Not that we don’t have problems at times.

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Posted: 12 March 2014 05:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]
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George - 12 March 2014 04:39 PM

You are right: we have many “societies” around GTA, created by people who didn’t feel all that comfortable by loving their racially different neighbours.

You can’t prove that. Maybe most of these people just feel better living in their own ethnic neighborhoods.
And obviously as far as fresh immigrants go, where else are they going to go. Their “advance party” family members or friends
hooked them up with a starting place. In their own neighborhoods obviously. That’s how it works.

Then kids start going to schools with other kids. People get jobs in places with other people. People start going to events and restaurants and movies with other people.

What do you want George?  Nightly inter-cultural foot massage nights at the host’s house?

You’re seeing the pattern too easily because it stands out. Try looking at all the cultural diversity which is all around you in Toronto.
At jobs, on the streets, at the shows, at the restaurants, at churches etc.

It’s easy to see the large blocks of things that are the same. It’s harder to see the general background noise which is a huge melting pot of people and cultures.

Obviously there are tensions sometimes. So what?  This is normal.

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Posted: 12 March 2014 05:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]
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I don’t know about the rest of the world or even the country, but in Southern California it’s fascinating to see how many inter-racial couples there are, with kids of intermediate pigmentation and other characteristics.  I think this will continue to become more common over the next few generations until pigmentation will no longer be a block to assimilation.  And as computer linguistic translation becomes faster and more accurate, even that will cease to be a problem. 

Just think, George, in a few hundred years no one will even think about genetic differentiation between groups. LOL

Occam

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