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Malysia flight 370
Posted: 03 April 2014 05:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 61 ]
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kkwan - 25 March 2014 01:13 PM

From http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/03/25/a-storm-of-anger-and-sorrow-mh370-victims-families-descend-on-malaysian-embassy-in-beijing/

China demanded that Malaysia turn over the satellite data used to conclude that a Malaysia Airlines jetliner had crashed in the southern Indian Ocean, killing everyone on board, as gale-force winds and heavy rain on Tuesday halted the search for remains of the plane.

It appears premature and unjustified jumping to the conclusion that MH370 had crashed in the southern Indian Ocean with no survivors based only on data from one satellite.

Where is the hard compelling physical evidence in the form of debris etc. that it has crashed?

And from the same article above:

“We’re not searching for a needle in a haystack — we’re still trying to define where the haystack is,” Australia’s deputy defence chief, Air Marshal Mark Binskin, told reporters at a military base in Perth as idled planes stood behind him.

So, where is the haystack and the needle in it?

With no triangulation data, no precise location of MH370 is available and as such, no conclusion wrt where and what happened to MH370 can be made with any certainty at all.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangulation

Today, large-scale triangulation networks for positioning have largely been superseded by the Global navigation satellite systems established since the 1980s.

That requires data from more than one satellite to work.

In the face of all these uncertainties, we should suspend judgment.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspension_of_judgment

Suspension of judgment is a cognitive process and a rational state of mind in which one withholds judgments, particularly on the drawing of moral or ethical conclusions. The opposite of suspension of judgment is premature judgment, usually shortened to prejudice. While prejudgment involves drawing a conclusion or making a judgment before having the information relevant to such a judgment, suspension of judgment involves waiting for all the facts before making a decision.

Suspension of judgment is a cornerstone of standard research methodology. Much of the scientific method is designed to encourage the suspension of judgments until observations can be made, tested, and verified through peer review.


Kkwan wrote: Where is the hard compelling physical evidence in the form of debris etc. that it has crashed?

Where is the hard compelling physical evidence that it crashed anywhere else? We know it was flying over the Indian Ocean and there is no evidence that it crashed (or landed) on land.  If it crashed on land there would be far more evidence of it than there would be if it went into the ocean. If it landed, someone, somewhere would have seen some evidence of it and a long landing strip and of the 200+ people on it. There is no way to hide a 777 and 200 people, dead or alive, from all detection on land. But it could easily have disappeared into the ocean with no trace.

Lois

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Posted: 03 April 2014 05:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 62 ]
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Lois - 03 April 2014 05:30 PM
macgyver - 18 March 2014 12:15 PM

Thats a bit ridiculous. The author is claiming that the plane crashed and the crash was witnessed and everyone is ignoring the evidence because its better for ratings if the mystery continues? I don’t think the multinational force of ships and planes and people give a damn about CNN’s ratings. If they had evidence the plane crashed somewhere they would be all over it. This is about the dumbest conspiracy theory I have heard so far.

Yes, in a sea of dumb conspiracy theories.

Lois

I don’t know, the one about god pulling ‘em out of the sky, at least deserves honorable mention.  red face

not that I think anything about this tragedy is funny

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Posted: 03 April 2014 10:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 63 ]
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Deleted.

[ Edited: 03 April 2014 10:19 PM by kkwan ]
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Posted: 03 April 2014 10:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 64 ]
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TimB - 02 April 2014 06:31 PM

Thanks, Kkwan, your post #50 had really good information.  I just couldn’t bear to read it with the margins extended.

Understandably so wrt the problem of reading posts with extended margins.

As for plastic and other debris in the oceans, from this article

here

Seattle oceanographer Curtis Ebbesmeyer has been studying the phenomena of ocean debris for years. He said there are smaller collections of garbage that collect within the gyres.

“If you go into a house you’ll find dust bunnies,” he said. “The ocean has a mass of dust bunnies, each moving about 10 miles a day.”

Ebbesmeyer said he’s fascinated by what happens to the trash that spews from the hundreds of shipping containers lost overboard from cargo ships each year. He said there’s one that keeps belching out Lego pieces onto the beaches of Cornwall, England. Another spilled 2,000 computer monitors. Another released thousands of pairs of Nike sneakers.

Lego, computer monitors and Nike sneakers!!

And particularly, plastic:

Denise Hardesty, a research scientist for Australian science agency CSIRO, said the studies she’s been involved with conservatively estimate there are between 5,000 and 7,000 small pieces of plastic per square kilometer in the waters around Australia.

She said two-thirds of the seabirds she’s performed necropsies upon have ingested at least some plastic and one particular bird had swallowed 175 pieces. Another bird, she said, had swallowed an entire glow stick longer than a finger. Such sticks are used by fishermen to attract fish underwater.

“It takes 400 or 500 years for lots of types of plastics to completely break down,” Hardesty said. “It just goes into smaller and smaller bits. You even find plastics in plankton – that’s how small it gets.”

Bold added by me.

These “virtually indestructible” plastic debris are accumulating in the oceans and affecting the food chains of birds, animals, fish, plankton etc. with dire consequences for the environment and for life on earth, including humans.

This is the curse of plastic.  cheese

[ Edited: 03 April 2014 11:21 PM by kkwan ]
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Posted: 03 April 2014 11:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 65 ]
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Lois - 03 April 2014 05:40 PM

Where is the hard compelling physical evidence that it crashed anywhere else? We know it was flying over the Indian Ocean and there is no evidence that it crashed (or landed) on land.  If it crashed on land there would be far more evidence of it than there would be if it went into the ocean. If it landed, someone, somewhere would have seen some evidence of it and a long landing strip and of the 200+ people on it. There is no way to hide a 777 and 200 people, dead or alive, from all detection on land. But it could easily have disappeared into the ocean with no trace.

There is no compelling physical evidence MH370 has crashed anywhere at all, either on land or in the ocean.

Therefore, we should suspend judgment that it has crashed.

OTOH, there are 634 or possibly more “runways” where MH370 could have landed.

From this article

here

There are a total of 634 runways that fit the criteria, spread out across 26 countries. But of course the number of places the plane could have landed is much larger as it assumes the plane used a formal runway in the first place. Slate’s Jeff Wise spoke to a pilot who flies 777-200s who said the plane could be landed on a highway. “A runway wouldn’t even necessarily have to be paved,” wrote Wise, “hard-packed dirt would likely be good enough.”

Bold added by me.

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Posted: 04 April 2014 01:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 66 ]
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Kkwan, the compelling evidence that MH370 didn’t land somewhere, is that it would require 1) the plane having flown over land undetected AND 2) the more extraordinary level of secrecy to keep it quiet for this long or AND 3) there would need to be a motive not only for doing so, but also for keeping it secret for this long.

All of this defies credulity.

It is a little less unlikely that the plane flew undetected and crashed in some remote land area.  But I really don’t think that there are many possible routes that would have achieved such lack of detection, or that there are many remote areas where they may have crashed.  But landed somewhere?  That is too far-fetched to consider as a primary hypothesis.

Hence the best hypothesis involves following the paltry ping data to the remote ocean areas.

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Posted: 04 April 2014 05:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 67 ]
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kkwan - 03 April 2014 11:59 PM

There is no compelling physical evidence MH370 has crashed anywhere at all, either on land or in the ocean.

Therefore, we should suspend judgment that it has crashed.

OTOH, there are 634 or possibly more “runways” where MH370 could have landed.

There are two items of evidence which strongly point to a crash.

1) The pingers from the engines stopped at just about the time the plane should have run out of fuel. These devices should have continued responding if the plane had not crashed.

2) The radar batteries of several countries would have to have been crossed if the plane went north and all countries deny any evidence of this. The only alternative location for the plane is in the middle of the Indian Ocean with no place to land. The plane has to be along one of the two arcs that extend north and south. It can’t really be anywhere else.

That leaves only two rational possibilities ( we will leave out aliens and alternate dimensional nonsense).

1) The plane crashed in the ocean
2) There was a multinational conspiracy to hijack and hide a huge jet liner

Since the second option is extremely unlikely I think the evidence is pretty compelling that the plane crashed although we have very little data to explain why yet.

[ Edited: 04 April 2014 05:51 AM by macgyver ]
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Posted: 05 April 2014 08:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 68 ]
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Hmmm, there seems to be a real development…

MH370: Chinese patrol ship detects pulse signal
Haixun 01 records signal with same frequency as that of black box ping as search continues for missing plane
Tania Branigan in Beijing
theguardian.com, Saturday 5 April 2014 09.49 EDT
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/05/mh370-chinese-patrol-ship-detects-pulse-signal


“A Chinese search ship has detected an electronic pulse in an area of the southern Indian Ocean where it is believed the missing Malaysian Airlines plane crashed, state media has announced.

“Chinese patrol ship Haixun 01 searching for flight MH370 discovered a pulse signal with a frequency of 37.5kHz per second in south Indian Ocean waters Saturday,” the official news agency, Xinhua, said. It also reported that a Chinese air force plane spotted a number of white floating objects in the search area.

Anish Patel, president of Dukane Seacom – which has said it made the beacons for the flight data and cockpit voice recorders on board MH370 – told CNN the pulse was identical to the standard beacon frequency.

The Haixun 01, one of two Chinese ships in the area, picked up the signal at about 25 degrees south latitude and 101 degrees east longitude, Xinhua reported.

“It is yet to be established whether it is related to the missing jet,” it said. ...

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Posted: 05 April 2014 01:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 69 ]
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I hope what the Chinese ship detected is the real deal.  It is probably the last chance to find MH370 anytime in the near future.

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Posted: 06 April 2014 05:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 70 ]
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I wonder when CNN is going to run out of things to report as “breaking news” on the missing plane. I have some ideas to help them keep the story alive:

CNN breaking news: Passengers of Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 were served chicken and pasta.

CNN breaking news: The Indian Ocean where Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 is suspected to have crashed consists mostly of water and a lot of fishes.

CNN breaking news: Experts have calculated Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 didn’t carry enough fuel to have made it to the Easter Island.

Can you think of more “breaking news”?

[ Edited: 06 April 2014 06:16 AM by George ]
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Posted: 06 April 2014 10:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 71 ]
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George - 06 April 2014 05:40 AM

I wonder when CNN is going to run out of things to report as “breaking news” on the missing plane. I have some ideas to help them keep the story alive:

CNN breaking news: Passengers of Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 were served chicken and pasta.

CNN breaking news: The Indian Ocean where Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 is suspected to have crashed consists mostly of water and a lot of fishes.

CNN breaking news: Experts have calculated Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 didn’t carry enough fuel to have made it to the Easter Island.

Can you think of more “breaking news”?

CNN has “breaking news” several times a day, every day.  There will always be something it can call “breaking news.” “Breaking News” has already lost its meaning. It’s like the boy who cried wolf.

Lois

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Posted: 06 April 2014 07:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 72 ]
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TimB - 04 April 2014 01:53 AM

Kkwan, the compelling evidence that MH370 didn’t land somewhere, is that it would require 1) the plane having flown over land undetected AND 2) the more extraordinary level of secrecy to keep it quiet for this long or AND 3) there would need to be a motive not only for doing so, but also for keeping it secret for this long.

All of this defies credulity.

From this article here

The plane did not fly over Indonesia or its airspace after making a westward turn in the South China Sea and flying across the Malaysian Peninsula, the source said.

According to the source, the plane may have purposely been flown along a route designed to avoid radar detection.

Why did it do that?

It is a little less unlikely that the plane flew undetected and crashed in some remote land area.  But I really don’t think that there are many possible routes that would have achieved such lack of detection, or that there are many remote areas where they may have crashed.  But landed somewhere?  That is too far-fetched to consider as a primary hypothesis.

Hence the best hypothesis involves following the paltry ping data to the remote ocean areas.

Is it so? We will have to wait and see.

OTOH, from this article

here

A US technology company which had 20 senior staff on board Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 had just launched a new electronic warfare gadget for military radar systems in the days before the Boeing 777 went missing.

Coincidence or what?

And

Avoiding radar via “cloaking technology” has long been one of the objectives of the defense industry and Freescale has been active developing chips for military radar.

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Posted: 06 April 2014 07:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 73 ]
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macgyver - 04 April 2014 05:49 AM

Since the second option is extremely unlikely I think the evidence is pretty compelling that the plane crashed although we have very little data to explain why yet.

With no compelling hard evidence that the plane crashed, we should suspend judgment instead.

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Posted: 06 April 2014 07:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 74 ]
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From CNN here

CLANCY: I’ve never covered a story like this one that had so few facts and so much speculation in so many different directions.

Incredibly baffling?

This case is far more baffling because we have a plane that reversed its flight path, traveled almost in a line to Antarctica and apparently stayed aloft until it ran out of fuel. That’s a plot?

There’s been no claim of responsibility. There’s been no manifesto explaining any political motives or personal motives for anyone. How does a plane with a catastrophic mechanical malfunction go on to fly another seven hours? And as we try to imagine what was going on aboard the aircraft this entire time, would the other crew members have just stood by and let the plane go off in the opposite direction?

Surrealistic, isn’t it?

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Posted: 06 April 2014 11:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 75 ]
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kkwan - 06 April 2014 07:26 PM
TimB - 04 April 2014 01:53 AM

Kkwan, the compelling evidence that MH370 didn’t land somewhere, is that it would require 1) the plane having flown over land undetected AND 2) the more extraordinary level of secrecy to keep it quiet for this long or AND 3) there would need to be a motive not only for doing so, but also for keeping it secret for this long.

All of this defies credulity.

From this article here

The plane did not fly over Indonesia or its airspace after making a westward turn in the South China Sea and flying across the Malaysian Peninsula, the source said.

According to the source, the plane may have purposely been flown along a route designed to avoid radar detection.

Why did it do that?

It is a little less unlikely that the plane flew undetected and crashed in some remote land area.  But I really don’t think that there are many possible routes that would have achieved such lack of detection, or that there are many remote areas where they may have crashed.  But landed somewhere?  That is too far-fetched to consider as a primary hypothesis.

Hence the best hypothesis involves following the paltry ping data to the remote ocean areas.

Is it so? We will have to wait and see.

OTOH, from this article

here

A US technology company which had 20 senior staff on board Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 had just launched a new electronic warfare gadget for military radar systems in the days before the Boeing 777 went missing.

Coincidence or what?

And

Avoiding radar via “cloaking technology” has long been one of the objectives of the defense industry and Freescale has been active developing chips for military radar.

Cool supposition for motive, and explanation of why someone would have taken the plane on its circuitous route to the remote ocean, but Snopes.com doesn’t think it holds water. (I tried to include the exact link but the spam detector wouldn’t let me.)

[ Edited: 06 April 2014 11:52 PM by TimB ]
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