A bothersome scenario.
Posted: 20 March 2014 08:52 AM   [ Ignore ]
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Something happened that has me a bit peeved.

So I guess the new guy who works in back(the warehouse) with (lets call him)Dave has complained a couple times about Dave being mean; which is understandable, Dave is verbally abusive, diminutive, and extremely disrespectful. The new girl (who tends to bracket men to fit the traditional male role) had this to say, “Oh boo hoo, you’re really going to complain? You’re a grown man.” I found this immediately angering. She sees being an obnoxious jerk who every hates (i.e. Dave) to be perfectly fine and pretty much just being a ‘real man’ while taking issue with being berated as being emasculate and unmanly. Why do so many girls/women think this way? Do they just genuinely think that men just don’t have feelings like girls do? Because surprise surprise, men have the same feelings as women, we’re just ‘taught’ not to show pain or objections because ‘real men’ don’t ‘need’ these feelings. But it’s not a lack of feelings men have, it’s just a suppression of the same feelings everyone has. In fact, psychologically speaking, it’s unhealthy for one’s sense of self to suppress emotions as nearly unanimously agreed by psychologists. And in my opinion, shouldn’t the ‘grown man’ be the one who knows how to have manners/respect(?)

So, this guy who is so insufferable that no one can stand to be around him, is not faulted for being awful, but the guy who doesn’t want to work with someone who berates him is the guy who needs to shape up? I just thought this was the basest empathetic ignorance on The New Girl’s part. It shows a failure to reason honestly and to care sufficiently about the wellbeing of others, due to a pre-established expectation of emotional suppression. It’s because of situations and standards of this type, in my opinion, that the number of men in counseling/therapy now outweigh women.

This is not the first time the new girl has said something of this nature, where she finds it unacceptable for men not to fit the old archetype of masculinity and stoicism and it really gets under my skin.

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Posted: 20 March 2014 09:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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It seems apparent that Dave is a bully and picks on those weaker (physically, verbally, or emotionally) than himself.  The new girl sees that obvious behavior (incorrectly) as real masculinity.  Sorry for my stereotype of her, but she’s the kind of girl who adores a macho jerk, gets married to him, then can’t understand why he keeps beating her up. 

As a personal aside, since I became an adult I’ve loved verbal bullies, since I learned from my father how to appear to be just being funny to everyone else but slicing the S.O.B.‘s figurative head off after s/he attacks someone weaker than him/her.  It micturates them off, but they learn to keep their mouths shut.  smile

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[ Edited: 20 March 2014 09:59 AM by Occam. ]
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Posted: 20 March 2014 03:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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We all interact with people like that. One of my friends taught me a long time ago that Occam’s tactic is the best way to deal with these people: get everyone laughing at them. The more angry they get the deeper hole they dig and the more everyone laughs.

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Posted: 21 March 2014 08:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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Callisto Enceladus - 20 March 2014 08:52 AM

Something happened that has me a bit peeved.

So I guess the new guy who works in back(the warehouse) with (lets call him)Dave has complained a couple times about Dave being mean; which is understandable, Dave is verbally abusive, diminutive, and extremely disrespectful. The new girl (who tends to bracket men to fit the traditional male role) had this to say, “Oh boo hoo, you’re really going to complain? You’re a grown man.” I found this immediately angering. She sees being an obnoxious jerk who every hates (i.e. Dave) to be perfectly fine and pretty much just being a ‘real man’ while taking issue with being berated as being emasculate and unmanly. Why do so many girls/women think this way? Do they just genuinely think that men just don’t have feelings like girls do? Because surprise surprise, men have the same feelings as women, we’re just ‘taught’ not to show pain or objections because ‘real men’ don’t ‘need’ these feelings. But it’s not a lack of feelings men have, it’s just a suppression of the same feelings everyone has. In fact, psychologically speaking, it’s unhealthy for one’s sense of self to suppress emotions as nearly unanimously agreed by psychologists. And in my opinion, shouldn’t the ‘grown man’ be the one who knows how to have manners/respect(?)

So, this guy who is so insufferable that no one can stand to be around him, is not faulted for being awful, but the guy who doesn’t want to work with someone who berates him is the guy who needs to shape up? I just thought this was the basest empathetic ignorance on The New Girl’s part. It shows a failure to reason honestly and to care sufficiently about the wellbeing of others, due to a pre-established expectation of emotional suppression. It’s because of situations and standards of this type, in my opinion, that the number of men in counseling/therapy now outweigh women.

This is not the first time the new girl has said something of this nature, where she finds it unacceptable for men not to fit the old archetype of masculinity and stoicism and it really gets under my skin.

Maybe she wants “Dave”?

Try not to dwell on it, because there is nothing you can do about it.

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Posted: 23 March 2014 06:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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I know you’re just venting, but I recently found out that bullying in the workplace is a growing concern in America. Other countries already are dealing with it, it has its own workplacebullying .org and everything. Going straight to HR is not always the best plan, unless you know that your HR will be supportive, which supposedly is their job.

At my job, we have a committee for people being bullied and recently got “bullying” added to our official policy along with sexual harassment and the other classifications. After years of complaints, my director was forced to retire this week. It was a small victory and took years but it was great to see a little justice in an otherwise unhealthy workplace.

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Posted: 23 March 2014 01:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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I try not to be too strong in my comments, but this deserves it.

Quoting Mid atlantic:

Try not to dwell on it, because there is nothing you can do about it.

Wow, that is one of the dumbest statements I’ve seen on this forum.

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Posted: 25 March 2014 10:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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Bullies rely on the person they’re bullying to react back. It’s what feeds them and eggs them on. One way to counter that, if you’re on the receiving end, is to look them straight in the eye but not say a word. Don’t back down, don’t say a word, and just stare right into their eyes as they usually continue to mouth off. I think bullies deep inside are actually afraid, and this little trick basically scares them.

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Posted: 27 March 2014 07:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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CuthbertJ - 25 March 2014 10:23 AM

Bullies rely on the person they’re bullying to react back. It’s what feeds them and eggs them on. One way to counter that, if you’re on the receiving end, is to look them straight in the eye but not say a word. Don’t back down, don’t say a word, and just stare right into their eyes as they usually continue to mouth off. I think bullies deep inside are actually afraid, and this little trick basically scares them.

My issue was more with the girl’s sexist remarks, rather than ‘Dave’s’ rudeness.

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Posted: 27 March 2014 09:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
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I wouldn’t be surprised if she was a daddy’s girl who was coddled by him while he bullied her mother and everyone else around him.  So she’s looking for a “daddy” of that type.

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Posted: 27 March 2014 09:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
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Well she is close to her Dad, and he’s divorced and I don’t hear much about her mom, so maybe you’re on to something.

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Posted: 28 March 2014 02:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
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To some degree my country Pakistan has the same problem

But there is a sign that things are changing   smile
http://www.burkaavenger.com/

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Posted: 07 April 2014 05:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
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, “Oh boo hoo, you’re really going to complain? You’re a grown man.”

wow. that would set me off. big time. shaming, sexist, etc.

not sure how I would react.

I guess it would come down to a lot of factors including what I thought I could/could not say at work. how much I had to be around this woman. etc. how i thought she would react.

couple of takes:

I am a big guy. a big pinko, sensitive, cry at movies guy. But I would swell up, and get a cold look in my eye, and grit my teeth, and look her in the eyes and say. “YOU. DON’T. GET. TO. TELL. ME. WHAT A GROWN MAN IS.”
because she is not going to respond to reason, or empathy at this point. she will respond to you being an alpha (I am not an alpha, btw) this is not my preferred way, but frankly it might be a good one.

I could look at her and say “you have a sad, small, fucked up way of looking at the world. I don’t want to sound mean. But that is a fucked up thing to say to someone.”

I could say “Hey! don’t tell other people what they should and should not complain about! this is a free country.”

I could say “Excuse me, as a grown man, I am busy listening to another grown man tell me something that bugs him. This is what normal grown adult men do. I don’t know what the men you know do. Please don’t talk if you can’t contribute in a positive way.”

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

the long game: say nothing. find out more about her. listen to her. let her open up. because she comes from a sad, fucked up little world, she could probably use a friend.


I will end with story:

I was playing D and D with some real stupid, uneducated jerks. first off, i have no idea why these philistines played DnD they should have being doing something else.  3 of them were long term buddies. one was an army guy named Alex. then there was me. they always shamed, mocked and dominated each other. alex was pretty quiet most of time but had real snarky streak. once he went out to smoke and I went with because I smoke a pipe.

I started to complain/vent about something. don’t remember what. Alex said, “boohoo I am gonna cry and complain about my life!” in a mocking voice. and I said, “fuck you alex. you bitch and moan about your wife and your life and your money all the time. and I LISTEN. and I CARE. you know why? because that is what normal grown men do. They give a shit about their friends. So if you want a friend who fucking listens to you, then you better do the same for me.” he broke up laughing and apoligized. the next week I got a call.  he had me over to hang out. we became fast friends. we quit that DnD group because after talking we were sick of their juvenile behavior. we started our own group.  Alex was there for me when I got divorced.


He had been alone for a long time when we had that converasation as we were smoking, and he had been only around losers who could not share their feelings or be supportive like fully evolved humans. he told me later that he used to have good friends but after being in army…and moving…he had not found any men who were not just big immature boys. we are still friends to the day.  all that to say that people get in dysfunctional settings and think they are normal.

show her what healthy looks like.

edit: “try not to dwell on it”
a) that seems like you meant well. I want to say that you took the time to offer advice, that was thoughtful.
b) I am pretty sure he has tried not to dwell on it. but felt like he need to process. part of letting go of things often involves processing them first. you are right, in that sometimes we can or need to let things go. not sure about this time. it is work related. he will have similar run ins with this woman in future.
c) having processed it, he can move forward to take action or not. at that point, he can move on/not dwell.

I am not attacking you for your advice to not dwell, I am simply deconstructing it. I think you meant well.

“We all interact with people like that. One of my friends taught me a long time ago that Occam’s tactic is the best way to deal with these people: get everyone laughing at them. The more angry they get the deeper hole they dig and the more everyone laughs.”

as a humanist, one of the last things I feel I should do is use a group dynamic to shame/attack another person or marginalize them. would I? i have. if I felt VERY unsafe and precarious I might use this tactic. but not be proud of myself. not everyone can grow or change but I am not going to, early on, be a person who purposefully alienates and angers someone. I ruin every chance at connection and helping them evolve as a FELLOW HUMAN.

[ Edited: 07 April 2014 05:30 PM by somepetezimm ]
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