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Precision in Nature: Evidence of God or Accidents?
Posted: 13 August 2014 05:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 91 ]
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LoisL - 13 August 2014 04:40 PM
MzLee - 13 August 2014 03:15 PM
LoisL - 13 August 2014 01:40 PM
Lausten - 13 August 2014 05:49 AM
LoisL - 11 August 2014 10:55 PM

That’s ok. i know how hard it is to make an intelligent argument against determinism.

Lois

You should really put a smiley face after statements like that.

The smiley face is in my signature.  tongue rolleye

Lois

You know that’s not a smile, he’s sticking his tongue out.

tongue wink

He’s smiling with his tongue out!

 

Anyway, they’re all called smileys, even the ones that are scowling.  angry 

cheese

LMAO….  LOL

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Posted: 13 August 2014 06:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 92 ]
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Of course there are many stories of floods, there have been many floods from well before the appearance of modern humans. These great natural events are memorized by the organism’s individuals as well as collectively.

It has been proven that even the BRAINLESS slimemould learns from repetition and can anticipate a potential problem, in addition to acting intelligently in many ways, but without a brain at all.
See below for example of the slime mould anticipating a cold spell from experience.

Another set of experiments suggests that slime molds navigate time as well as space, using a rudimentary internal clock to anticipate and prepare for future changes in their environments. Tetsu Saigusa of Hokkaido University and his colleagues—including Nakagaki—placed a polycephalum in a kind of groove in an agar plate stored in a warm and moist environment (slime molds thrive in high humidity). The slime mold crawled along the groove. Every 30 minutes, however, the scientists suddenly dropped the temperature and decreased the humidity, subjecting the polycephalum to unfavorably dry conditions. The slime mold instinctively began to crawl more slowly, saving its energy. After a few trials, Saigusa and his colleagues stopped changing the slime mold’s environment, but every 30 minutes the amoeba’s pace slowed anyway. Eventually it stopped slowing down spontaneously.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/brainless-slime-molds/

As to ID, I don’t think that anyone would adopt the explanation of simple duplication. (“It just cannot be as simple as that)!  Actually yes, this aweinspiring complexity we see in the universe is the result of simple natural mathematical functions and processes.

Before the appearance of male and female reproductive functions, many older organisms tried the method of simple duplication for procreation, but it led to less variety and made the organisms more vilnerable to extinction. A few survivors are the fern, and some single celled organisms.
See below of an example of such a system;

For starters: if the Borg and the Clone Wars had a baby it would be a pyrosome. One long pyrosomes is actually a collection of thousands of clones, with each individual capable of copying itself and adding to the colony. And like members of the Borg, which are mentally connected, pyrosome members are physically connected– actually sharing tissues.

http://deepseanews.com/2013/08/the-60-foot-long-jet-powered-animal-youve-probably-never-heard-of/

The universe is fractal, which is the simplest possible duplicating function. Fractals are everywhere!!!  Do a little reading on the subject and it becomes readily apparent that exquisite beauty and majesty can be achieved by a set of simple triangles.  Ain’t that GRAND?  But It ain’t a biblical god.
The appearance of apparent order was not accidental at all, it was an INEVITABLE outcome from the laws of physics, chemistry, and spatial shapes and Energy.

[ Edited: 13 August 2014 07:24 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 14 August 2014 04:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 93 ]
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Write4U - 13 August 2014 06:56 PM

It has been proven that even the BRAINLESS slimemould learns from repetition and can anticipate a potential problem, in addition to acting intelligently in many ways, but without a brain at all.
See below for example of the slime mould anticipating a cold spell from experience.

Hey, Write, we had that already.

The most you can say is that theoretically one could base an intelligent system on such optimisation algorithms. But it is like neurons: neurons are not intelligent, but they can work together in highly complicated structures like the brain, that is intelligent.

[ Edited: 14 August 2014 07:14 AM by GdB ]
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Posted: 14 August 2014 07:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 94 ]
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Lois and Lausten,

It is pretty clear where the ID movement comes from.

See the Wedge Strategy.

See also the timeline of intelligent design.

One of the funniest events described, is of how a creationist school book was changed into an intelligent design book:

1987 In a new draft of Pandas [and People], approximately 150 uses of the root word “creation”, such as “creationism” and “creationist”, were systematically changed to refer to intelligent design, with “creationists” being changed to “design proponents” or, in one instance, “cdesign proponentsists”.

See also here:

Example of earlier creationist edition (emphasis added):

Creation means that the various forms of life began abruptly through the agency of an intelligent creator with their distinctive features already intact. Fish with fins and scales, birds with feathers, beaks, and wings, etc.”

Example of new Improved Intelligent Design edition (emphasis added):

Intelligent design means that various forms of life began abruptly through an intelligent agency, with their distinctive features already intact. Fish with fins and scales, birds with feathers, beaks, wings, etc.”

This evidence and things like the Wedge Document helped lead John E. Jones III to his verdict that intelligent design was the same as creationism and that the ID movement was a subversive attempt to inject creationism into the classroom.

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Posted: 14 August 2014 10:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 95 ]
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GdB - 14 August 2014 07:32 AM

Lois and Lausten,

It is pretty clear where the ID movement comes from.

See the Wedge Strategy.

See also the timeline of intelligent design.

One of the funniest events described, is of how a creationist school book was changed into an intelligent design book:

1987 In a new draft of Pandas [and People], approximately 150 uses of the root word “creation”, such as “creationism” and “creationist”, were systematically changed to refer to intelligent design, with “creationists” being changed to “design proponents” or, in one instance, “cdesign proponentsists”.

See also here:

Example of earlier creationist edition (emphasis added):

Creation means that the various forms of life began abruptly through the agency of an intelligent creator with their distinctive features already intact. Fish with fins and scales, birds with feathers, beaks, and wings, etc.”

Example of new Improved Intelligent Design edition (emphasis added):

Intelligent design means that various forms of life began abruptly through an intelligent agency, with their distinctive features already intact. Fish with fins and scales, birds with feathers, beaks, wings, etc.”

This evidence and things like the Wedge Document helped lead John E. Jones III to his verdict that intelligent design was the same as creationism and that the ID movement was a subversive attempt to inject creationism into the classroom.

Good links.

Lois

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[color=red“Nothing is so good as it seems beforehand.”
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Posted: 16 August 2014 12:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 96 ]
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From a show (Wander Over Yonder) my kids watch:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyf-W0_yH1A

Take care,

Derek

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Posted: 12 February 2015 08:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 97 ]
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Advocatus - 11 July 2014 08:40 AM
Alter2Ego - 08 July 2014 02:40 PM

DEFINITION OF “ACCIDENT”:
a nonessential event that HAPPENS BY CHANCE and has undesirable or unfortunate results.” (Source: Websters New Collegiate Dictionary)

The fact that all of the first 60-discovered elements are precise and they are all interrelated is the first clue that theirs is not an “unfortunate result” because an “unfortunate result” would have caused them NOT to be interrelated and would have caused NOT to each be precise.

I think I see the problem, Alter.  You START with a definition of “accident” as “an unfortunate result”, in other words “something bad” and go from there.  No wonder your conclusion is skewed!  So let’s just drop the word “accident”.  The question you’re asking is this:  Is the order inherent in the universe a natural consequence of what it is, Or was this order deliberately imposed on the universe by some outside intelligence?

We Naturalists go with the former.  When the big singularity happened and created the universe we live in, these are just the laws of nature we ended up with, like it or not.  The fortunate result for us is that these laws allowed the evolution of complex living things like ourselves.  If they hadn’t, we would not be here arguing about it.  Either way it was not an “accident” the way you definite it.  It is simply natural.

Advocatus:

I see your problem.  You have managed to convince yourself that if you merely identify something as “natural”—despite the fact the thing is repeatedly precise (meaning it is exactly as required)—then that means the thing created itself spontaneously.

As soon as you can present evidence that precision among human creations can repeatedly happen spontaneously—meaning the precision was not intended—you will have made a point.


Truth be told, everybody reading this thread is aware that your argument makes no sense.  Why so?  Because if something “natural” (not man-made) is always precise, it disqualifies as an accident or a spontaneous event.  Why so?  Because precision, by definition, is something that is exactly as intended.  Below is the definition of “precision”.


precision [pre-sizh´un]
1. the quality of being sharply or exactly defined.
2. in statistics, the extent to which a measurement procedure gives the same results each time it is repeated under identical conditions

http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/precision


Below is the definition of “spontaneous”.

DEFINITION OF “SPONTANEOUS”:
“Spontaneous means unplanned or done on impulse.”
http://www.yourdictionary.com/spontaneous


Now, suppose you explain to the rest of us how something that is “simply natural” and is repeatedly precise = “spontaneous event”?


Alter2Ego

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Posted: 12 February 2015 08:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 98 ]
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Alter2ego, evolution is neither random nor spontaneous, it is selective. You are arguing a straw man position.

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Posted: 12 February 2015 08:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 99 ]
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Advocatus - 11 July 2014 08:40 AM

Try to look at it from our point of view for a change.  Your challenge to us is to explain how this “precision” just randomly appeared.  The question makes no sense to us because it’s simply the way the universe is.  Could YOU explain why it was necessary for this “precision” to be deliberately imposed?  Chances are you can’t.  It’s just the way you were brought up to believe is normal.

Advocatus:

What point of view would that be?  The point of view that something as simple as a stick of crayon or even a computer is proof of intelligent design (by humans), but our fine-tuned universe, against which the computer looks like child’s play, is evidence of no intelligent design? That is the point of view that every single atheist in this thread has presented thus far. 


Alter2Ego

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Posted: 13 February 2015 06:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 100 ]
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Alter2Ego - 12 February 2015 08:48 PM
Advocatus - 11 July 2014 08:40 AM

Try to look at it from our point of view for a change.  Your challenge to us is to explain how this “precision” just randomly appeared.  The question makes no sense to us because it’s simply the way the universe is.  Could YOU explain why it was necessary for this “precision” to be deliberately imposed?  Chances are you can’t.  It’s just the way you were brought up to believe is normal.

Advocatus:

What point of view would that be?  The point of view that something as simple as a stick of crayon or even a computer is proof of intelligent design (by humans), but our fine-tuned universe, against which the computer looks like child’s play, is evidence of no intelligent design? That is the point of view that every single atheist in this thread has presented thus far. 
Alter2Ego

Except the universe is not fine tuned at all. The most that can be said is that the universe functions logically, and we are an expression of that logic.
If the rules were different we would be different, but the rules are as they are and here we are and we’re not alone. The variety of species and range of habitat on earth alone staggers the mind.

You mght as well say that the universe is fine tuned for visible light.  surprised  In reality, we are fine tuned to visible light and is a result of natural selection.

This is not Intelligent Design, it is design intelligence.

[ Edited: 13 February 2015 06:48 AM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 13 February 2015 07:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 101 ]
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Really? We’re just going to start this thread up again after 8 months, like nothing happened?

Alter2Ego: The internet has lots of things to read too, it’s not just a place to write what’s on your mind.

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Posted: 13 February 2015 09:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 102 ]
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Alter2Ego - 12 February 2015 08:41 PM

Truth be told, everybody reading this thread is aware that your argument makes no sense.  Why so?  Because if something “natural” (not man-made) is always precise, it disqualifies as an accident or a spontaneous event.  Why so?  Because precision, by definition, is something that is exactly as intended.  Below is the definition of “precision”.

precision [pre-sizh´un]
1. the quality of being sharply or exactly defined.
2. in statistics, the extent to which a measurement procedure gives the same results each time it is repeated under identical conditions

http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/precision

Below is the definition of “spontaneous”.

DEFINITION OF “SPONTANEOUS”:
“Spontaneous means unplanned or done on impulse.”
http://www.yourdictionary.com/spontaneous

Now, suppose you explain to the rest of us how something that is “simply natural” and is repeatedly precise = “spontaneous event”?

See, you’re still doing it.  You START by defining life as something that was planned by an intelligent designer and cannot possibly be spontaneous.  And yet you don’t consider: where did that intelligent designer originate?  According to you, it must have been composed with EVEN MORE PRECISION than the living things it created.  Therefore some OTHER intelligence had to create IT!  You haven’t proved a single solitary thing except that you refuse to even consider any other point of view.  Sadly, there’s no point in talking to you any more.

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Posted: 27 February 2015 10:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 103 ]
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Alter2Ego - 12 February 2015 08:48 PM
Advocatus - 11 July 2014 08:40 AM

Try to look at it from our point of view for a change.  Your challenge to us is to explain how this “precision” just randomly appeared.  The question makes no sense to us because it’s simply the way the universe is.  Could YOU explain why it was necessary for this “precision” to be deliberately imposed?  Chances are you can’t.  It’s just the way you were brought up to believe is normal.

Advocatus:

What point of view would that be?  The point of view that something as simple as a stick of crayon or even a computer is proof of intelligent design (by humans), but our fine-tuned universe, against which the computer looks like child’s play, is evidence of no intelligent design? That is the point of view that every single atheist in this thread has presented thus far. 


Alter2Ego

AHH….this was the guy I was thinking of in my thread about what Intelligent Designer advocates are thinking.  SO AlterEgo - Can you tell us what you think is gained by proving there’s an Intelligent Designer? If you’d like, reply in my thread over in Religion forum.

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Posted: 27 February 2015 03:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 104 ]
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CuthbertJ - 27 February 2015 10:54 AM
Alter2Ego - 12 February 2015 08:48 PM
Advocatus - 11 July 2014 08:40 AM

Try to look at it from our point of view for a change.  Your challenge to us is to explain how this “precision” just randomly appeared.  The question makes no sense to us because it’s simply the way the universe is.  Could YOU explain why it was necessary for this “precision” to be deliberately imposed?  Chances are you can’t.  It’s just the way you were brought up to believe is normal.

Advocatus:

What point of view would that be?  The point of view that something as simple as a stick of crayon or even a computer is proof of intelligent design (by humans), but our fine-tuned universe, against which the computer looks like child’s play, is evidence of no intelligent design? That is the point of view that every single atheist in this thread has presented thus far. 


Alter2Ego

AHH….this was the guy I was thinking of in my thread about what Intelligent Designer advocates are thinking.  SO AlterEgo - Can you tell us what you think is gained by proving there’s an Intelligent Designer? If you’d like, reply in my thread over in Religion forum.

Believers find justification for their beliefs. An adult would look silly for believing in a fairy tale.  George Carlin nailed this dead-on,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RT6rL2UroE and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_tr_k59O6s

[ Edited: 27 February 2015 03:37 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 01 March 2015 11:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 105 ]
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Precision in nature proves nothing other than our ability to measure and assign value to whatever we claim has an attribute of precision.

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