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Immigration is bad because…
Posted: 13 July 2014 05:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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DarronS - 13 July 2014 03:54 PM
macgyver - 13 July 2014 04:45 AM

I think you are mistaken here. The main resources we are referring to here are food, housing and health care. There is evidence of all of these being strained as the result of immigration. Illegal immigration often results in 20-30 people living in residences meant for 5 or 6. Schools in some areas are strained by an influx of kids needing additional help and illegal aliens frequently show up in emergency rooms for care leaving false credentials accessing care that you and I the have to pay for. Uninsured users of healthcare are a large reason your premiums are higher than they otherwise would be and illegal immigration increases the cost of schools police and other public services which add to your tax bill.

If you can say that most people think their taxes and health insurance premiums are affordable then your statement might be correct. I don’t think that is the case though.

I’d like to see that evidence, Mac. The Affordable Health Care Act has made insurance affordable to millions of people who could not afford health care from for-profit companies.

Darron that is correct but I’m not sure it’s relevant here. Illegal aliens can’t access insurance under the ACA and even if the were able to legally do so they do not generally have the income to afford it. Most illegal new immigrants from central and South America are either uninsured or they are insured through Medicaid which they pay nothing for. You and I finance Medicaid through our tax dollars and pay for uninsured patients who use the ER when the hospital passes on the cost to everyone else by way of higher fees.

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Posted: 13 July 2014 05:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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You’d know more about that than me, but I think a much larger problem is uninsured Americans going to emergency rooms for health care, often after putting off medical attention that could have prevented an emergency room visit.

The bottom line is we need universal health care in this country.

But that discussion is off-topic for this thread. The OP concerned Central American children coming to the U.S. to escape enslavement, torture and death at home. Would you look them in their eyes and tell them they are not welcome here?

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Posted: 13 July 2014 05:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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macgyver - 13 July 2014 05:41 PM

Darron that is correct but I’m not sure it’s relevant here. Illegal aliens can’t access insurance under the ACA and even if the were able to legally do so they do not generally have the income to afford it. Most illegal new immigrants from central and South America are either uninsured or they are insured through Medicaid which they pay nothing for. You and I finance Medicaid through our tax dollars and pay for uninsured patients who use the ER when the hospital passes on the cost to everyone else by way of higher fees.

You have done no research into this issue. Undocumented aliens are not all migrant farmers and day laborers. Many have real jobs with a fake SSN. So taxes are taken out of their paycheck, just like everybody, put they can’t file, so they never get a return.

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Posted: 13 July 2014 06:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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Lausten - 13 July 2014 05:54 PM
macgyver - 13 July 2014 05:41 PM

Darron that is correct but I’m not sure it’s relevant here. Illegal aliens can’t access insurance under the ACA and even if the were able to legally do so they do not generally have the income to afford it. Most illegal new immigrants from central and South America are either uninsured or they are insured through Medicaid which they pay nothing for. You and I finance Medicaid through our tax dollars and pay for uninsured patients who use the ER when the hospital passes on the cost to everyone else by way of higher fees.

You have done no research into this issue. Undocumented aliens are not all migrant farmers and day laborers. Many have real jobs with a fake SSN. So taxes are taken out of their paycheck, just like everybody, put they can’t file, so they never get a return.

Laustren you are incorrect. I have spent 24 years working in medicine and done a fair amount of work in ER’s. I can tell you that undocumented workers coming to the ER without insurance is a daily occurrence even in the upper middle class area where I currently work. When I first started in practice I moonlighted in an ER in a very low income area of the city and the majority of the patients in that ER were undocumented immigrants or recent immigrants who were uninsured or insured through medicaid (which again you and I pay for).

The point of this argument is not that people shouldn’t be allowed to immigrate to the U.S. but that we have every right to decide who and how many can come in a given period of time just as nearly every other country does.

Darron, to answer your question of course it would be difficult to look a child in the eyes and tell them they can;t come in. I would ask you then how would you solve this problem. Should we let any individual under a certain age enter who wants to? Keep in mind that the money spent to support and care for these children has to come from somewhere else. Should we look an American child in the eye and tell them we can’t afford their school lunch program? Every choice has consequences that we have to deal with. These dilemmas don’t exist in a vacuum and we don’t have an unlimited budget even though politicians sometimes act like we do.

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Posted: 13 July 2014 06:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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Take the money from the Military Industrial Complex and use it for social services. We do not need to outspend the next nine nations in the world combined to keep our country safe.

We could also make the rich pay their fair share of taxes, end subsidies for oil and coal companies, and provide free education for anyone who can maintain the grades so they will get better jobs and pay more taxes.

Yeah, I know: in my dreams.

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Posted: 13 July 2014 06:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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DarronS - 13 July 2014 05:44 PM

Would you look them in their eyes and tell them they are not welcome here?

Hellooo Sally Struthers!

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Posted: 13 July 2014 06:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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How about we worry about all the little kids in Chicago, Houston, LA and Detroit etc…
Nobody can even look them in the eye!

We can’t even fix our own problems here. We don’t need endless streams of impoverished kids who want a better life here.
Because they don’t like their own country.
What’s that doing for those countries? It just compounds the problem down there.
Instead of growing up and being responsible, starting a future in your own country and working for a better way of life there, these people just
abandon their homes and sneak across the border illegally.

There’s no refugee crisis. This problem was started by Congress’ Asylum Law that GWB signed in 2008.
It was compounded by Obama and his Dream Act laws.
Those two laws(or modifications of existing laws) just rang the Dinner Bell.
That’s why the US is currently and frantically backpedaling and rethinking policies as we speak.
This so-called “crisis” is the only happy face that illegal immigrant advocates can put on this.
It’s an easy sell. Everyone thinks it’s bad down there and crazy. Nobody knows.
You just hear it is and you believe it.
Look at Chicago. We got the same thing here. We have drug wars and gangs right here.
But someone mentions El Salvador and it’s “Oh! It’s bad down there.”
It ain’t that bad. These people just want the American Dream. That’s all.
They want to cut in line ahead of all the people who are waiting and paying for visas to come here and work or study.
It’s been going on for so long that everyone just takes it for granted now.
“I’m doing the work that ordinary Americans won’t do.”
“We are escaping violence and drug wars.”
It’s the same old song and dance!

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Posted: 14 July 2014 03:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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DarronS - 13 July 2014 06:17 PM

Take the money from the Military Industrial Complex and use it for social services. We do not need to outspend the next nine nations in the world combined to keep our country safe.

We could also make the rich pay their fair share of taxes, end subsidies for oil and coal companies, and provide free education for anyone who can maintain the grades so they will get better jobs and pay more taxes.

Yeah, I know: in my dreams.

We dream the same dream.. sigh… don’t forget to tax the churches..

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Posted: 14 July 2014 04:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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Lausten - 13 July 2014 05:54 PM

You have done no research into this issue. Undocumented aliens are not all migrant farmers and day laborers. Many have real jobs with a fake SSN. So taxes are taken out of their paycheck, just like everybody, put they can’t file, so they never get a return.

I love how you tell people they have done no research into this issue. Everything you put on here is hearsay and myth.
Plus editorial news clippings from illegal immigrant advocate news sources.

1. Anybody can claim enough dependents on their W-4s so that no taxes are taken out and they actually owe the IRS at the end of the year.
Thus they don’t pay any taxes and actually owe the US money.
2. What makes you think that people who have had taxes deducted from their checks with a fake Social Security Card can’t file for a refund?
If they have a SSN, a name and an address they can file for a return. It’s that simple.
People with fake SSNs file for disability, tax refunds, death benefits etc all the time. They also get welfare, WIC, Food Stamps etc with false documents. It happens all the time.

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Posted: 14 July 2014 04:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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VYAZMA - 14 July 2014 04:12 AM
Lausten - 13 July 2014 05:54 PM

You have done no research into this issue. Undocumented aliens are not all migrant farmers and day laborers. Many have real jobs with a fake SSN. So taxes are taken out of their paycheck, just like everybody, put they can’t file, so they never get a return.

I love how you tell people they have done no research into this issue. Everything you put on here is hearsay and myth.
Plus editorial news clippings from illegal immigrant advocate news sources.

1. Anybody can claim enough dependents on their W-4s so that no taxes are taken out and they actually owe the IRS at the end of the year.
Thus they don’t pay any taxes and actually owe the US money.
2. What makes you think that people who have had taxes deducted from their checks with a fake Social Security Card can’t file for a refund?
If they have a SSN, a name and an address they can file for a return. It’s that simple.
People with fake SSNs file for disability, tax refunds, death benefits etc all the time. They also get welfare, WIC, Food Stamps etc with false documents. It happens all the time.

1. So what?
2. You would make a horrible “illegal”.

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Posted: 14 July 2014 04:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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DarronS - 13 July 2014 06:17 PM

We could also make the rich pay their fair share of taxes

Yeah, I know: in my dreams.

I know this sounds good to everyone who is not rich but I’m afraid its really just a matter of wanting something for nothing most of the time. This tired refrain is dragged out anytime the middle class want the government to provide something but don’t want to pay for it themselves or prefer not to make sacrifices some other government service in order to pay for it.

Some polls have indicated that most people would consider anyone who makes $250,000 or more rich but if this is the case then its hard to argue that these people aren’t paying “their fair share”. People in that tax bracket are already paying 1/3 of their income to the federal government plus whatever they pay in state and local taxes. Despite what most people think, tax shelters do not really afford much protection for people in this tax bracket since the AMT usually wipes out most of their tax deductions, even the home mortgage deduction that everyone else enjoys.

A few years back I researched this common claim with data from the OMB website and found that 90% of all taxes are paid by the top half of all earners and the top 10% pay 70% of all the taxes, in other words the top 10% pay 2.5 times as much as the entire rest of the country put together.

The idea of “the rich” sitting on beaches in the Caribbean paying no taxes by hiding their earnings in exotic tax shelters may apply to a very small percentage of people who get most of their earnings through capital gains from stocks and other investments but it does not apply to the vast majority of people who are labelled as rich but actually work to earn their income. Most of these people are small business owners not CEO’s and robber barons. We should certainly close tax loopholes where ever we can and tax capital gains at the same rate as regular earnings but dong those things is not going to bring in enough money to pay for much of anything.

[ Edited: 14 July 2014 04:44 AM by macgyver ]
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Posted: 14 July 2014 04:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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macgyver - 13 July 2014 06:14 PM

Laustren you are incorrect. I have spent 24 years working in medicine and done a fair amount of work in ER’s. I can tell you that undocumented workers coming to the ER without insurance is a daily occurrence even in the upper middle class area where I currently work. When I first started in practice I moonlighted in an ER in a very low income area of the city and the majority of the patients in that ER were undocumented immigrants or recent immigrants who were uninsured or insured through medicaid (which again you and I pay for).

That isn’t research. It is the definition of prejudice. You saw a sampling of something and you are extrapolating it to other people from a larger population defined by geography and heritage.

[ Edited: 14 July 2014 05:58 AM by Lausten ]
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Posted: 14 July 2014 05:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
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What you are ignoring, Mac, is that the top 10 percent control 90 percent of the money so should pay 90 percent of the taxes. Would you like to discuss offshore tax havens for corporations? How about tax breaks for fossil fuel extraction companies which are making billions of dollars in profits each quarter?

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Posted: 14 July 2014 06:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
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macgyver - 14 July 2014 04:40 AM

A few years back I researched this common claim with data from the OMB website and found that 90% of all taxes are paid by the top half of all earners and the top 10% pay 70% of all the taxes, in other words the top 10% pay 2.5 times as much as the entire rest of the country put together.

I seriously doubt that you did your own research since you have come to a conclusion which is widely publicized by financial magazines. The stats you present here might be accurate but they are the only way to present this data that provides a narrative that sounds fair for the rich. If you honestly looked at all the data, either you came up with this deceptive narrative yourself, or you are just parroting what you’ve heard. You ignore wealth vs income, you ignore how much income each of the brackets you name make. The average tax burden is around 20%, but you ignore how much more of a burden that is to someone making $30,000. Simply, the low income person is left with $24,000. The $250,000/yr person, even at 30%, still has $175,000. And don’t forget both people pay the same for gas and groceries.

You also ignore how much more the rich person benefits from his taxes. He has roads not just for his 1982 Blazer, but for his entire fleet of trucks. His a military, not just so he can get a job mopping the deck of a carrier, but to protect his oil fields in Saudi Arabia.

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Posted: 14 July 2014 06:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
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DarronS - 14 July 2014 05:23 AM

What you are ignoring, Mac, is that the top 10 percent control 90 percent of the money so should pay 90 percent of the taxes. Would you like to discuss offshore tax havens for corporations? How about tax breaks for fossil fuel extraction companies which are making billions of dollars in profits each quarter?

You are correct on both counts Darron but if they make 90% of the income and they are paying 90% of the taxes I don’t see how anyone can say they are not paying their fair share. I agree with you about off shore tax shelters but as I was saying this is a tiny fraction of the people we are labeling as rich if we are going to consider every one with more than $250,000 in income as being rich. People making say $250,000 to $500,000/yr do not have tax shelters and fancy off shore accounts. They keep their money in the same place as the rest of society for the most part and pay more in taxes as a percentage of their income than people who are making $50,000.

Its a convenient out to try and dump the cost of paying for societies needs on this group of people but the fact is that its just an excuse for everyone else not pitching in to help. Those people are already paying more than their fair share. If you want to go after the top 1/10th of 1% who are taking advantage of tax shelters and other unfair parts of the tax system as a feel good move and to make things more fair then I am fine with that but even there you are not going to come up with enough money to really pay for much of anything.

When people start saying “we can solve this problem and I am willing to pay more taxes to solve it” then I think that is worth listening to but wen they say “fix this and tax the other guy to do it” it rings hollow.

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