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Immigration is bad because…
Posted: 14 July 2014 07:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
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macgyver - 14 July 2014 06:18 AM

When people start saying “we can solve this problem and I am willing to pay more taxes to solve it” then I think that is worth listening to but wen they say “fix this and tax the other guy to do it” it rings hollow.

I’m not asking other people to give me anything. Making the über rich pay their fair share of taxes is only part of my plan. I led with vastly downsizing the military industrial complex. We can save trillions over a decade by cutting back on our killing machines.

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Posted: 14 July 2014 07:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
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macgyver - 14 July 2014 06:18 AM

When people start saying “we can solve this problem and I am willing to pay more taxes to solve it” then I think that is worth listening to but wen they say “fix this and tax the other guy to do it” it rings hollow.

You write long posts that don’t say much. What do you think is broken? Law enforcement? I agree, and when bankers break laws, they can destroy the economy of the entire world. Let’s tax them more, regulate them better and not “print” money for them when they do that. Welfare? I agree, let’s not subsidize WalMart by allowing them to keep wages so low and hours short so 15% of their employees are using food stamps. Jobs going overseas? I agree, let’s not give tax breaks to corporations for going global.

The list goes on…

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Posted: 14 July 2014 08:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
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DarronS - 14 July 2014 07:01 AM
macgyver - 14 July 2014 06:18 AM

When people start saying “we can solve this problem and I am willing to pay more taxes to solve it” then I think that is worth listening to but wen they say “fix this and tax the other guy to do it” it rings hollow.

I’m not asking other people to give me anything. Making the über rich pay their fair share of taxes is only part of my plan. I led with vastly downsizing the military industrial complex. We can save trillions over a decade by cutting back on our killing machines.

I dont disagree with a lot of that but when people ask for a solution to a societal problem but don’t ask anything of themselves ( and I am not necessarily referring to you here but to society in general) then its hard to take what they are saying very seriously

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Posted: 14 July 2014 08:17 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
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Lausten - 14 July 2014 07:08 AM
macgyver - 14 July 2014 06:18 AM

When people start saying “we can solve this problem and I am willing to pay more taxes to solve it” then I think that is worth listening to but wen they say “fix this and tax the other guy to do it” it rings hollow.

You write long posts that don’t say much. What do you think is broken? Law enforcement? I agree, and when bankers break laws, they can destroy the economy of the entire world. Let’s tax them more, regulate them better and not “print” money for them when they do that. Welfare? I agree, let’s not subsidize WalMart by allowing them to keep wages so low and hours short so 15% of their employees are using food stamps. Jobs going overseas? I agree, let’s not give tax breaks to corporations for going global.

The list goes on…

I am sorry if 2 or 3 short paragraphs tax your ability to concentrate but not everything can be said in a 140 character twitter bite. You’re perfectly welcome to skip my posts if you don’t understand them. Is that short enough for you?

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Posted: 14 July 2014 09:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
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macgyver - 14 July 2014 08:17 AM

I am sorry if 2 or 3 short paragraphs tax your ability to concentrate but not everything can be said in a 140 character twitter bite. You’re perfectly welcome to skip my posts if you don’t understand them. Is that short enough for you?

I didn’t say they were too long for me to understand, I said they lack substance. Would you like me to write a longer post explaining the difference?

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Posted: 14 July 2014 09:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
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Lausten - 14 July 2014 04:52 AM
macgyver - 13 July 2014 06:14 PM

Laustren you are incorrect. I have spent 24 years working in medicine and done a fair amount of work in ER’s. I can tell you that undocumented workers coming to the ER without insurance is a daily occurrence even in the upper middle class area where I currently work. When I first started in practice I moonlighted in an ER in a very low income area of the city and the majority of the patients in that ER were undocumented immigrants or recent immigrants who were uninsured or insured through medicaid (which again you and I pay for).

That isn’t research. It is the definition of prejudice. You saw a sampling of something and you are extrapolating it to other people from a larger population defined by geography and heritage.

Its not prejudice at all. I saw a very large sample of people entering an emergency room over several years. The majority of the uninsured and medicaid insured were immigrants from South and Central America. Yes I used a large sample to make a generalization about a larger group. That is not prejudiced its a rational extrapolation. Based on my observations I came to the conclusion that many new immigrants access the health care system in such a way as to cause tax paying and insured individuals to pay for their care.

Short of doing a national census, every study you have ever read does exactly the same thing. We are always using samples to extrapolate and make conclusions about larger groups. I am not claiming that my “Study” was scientific. Its just an observation but your argument that extrapolating about larger groups from smaller samples is prejudiced is flawed. There can certainly be statistical errors and bias in every study and certainly in my own observations but the techniques itself is not prejudiced, its a scientifically and statistically valid method for developing theories about large groups.

Its unclear from your post what point you are trying to make. It seems you posted a question to which you had already decided upon an answer and now your goal is merely to argue with everyone who opposes you without making any clear points or backing them up with any cogent arguments.

You are the one who makes posts with no substance. Congratulations on at least making them short.

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Posted: 14 July 2014 10:00 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
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Lausten - 14 July 2014 09:33 AM
macgyver - 14 July 2014 08:17 AM

I am sorry if 2 or 3 short paragraphs tax your ability to concentrate but not everything can be said in a 140 character twitter bite. You’re perfectly welcome to skip my posts if you don’t understand them. Is that short enough for you?

I didn’t say they were too long for me to understand

Clearly they are because you don’t

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Posted: 14 July 2014 11:04 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
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macgyver - 14 July 2014 09:57 AM

Its unclear from your post what point you are trying to make. It seems you posted a question to which you had already decided upon an answer and now your goal is merely to argue with everyone who opposes you without making any clear points or backing them up with any cogent arguments.

You are the one who makes posts with no substance. Congratulations on at least making them short.

I haven’t “decided on an answer”, I’ve studied the topic and have an opinion. I use facts to support it. I could be wrong, but I’m not going to listen to bad data supporting a non-argument. I provided a link and no one addressed it, other than to comment on the source, not the data. Why should I bother trying to educate further?

You are speaking out of two sides of your mouth, “I am not claiming that my “Study” was scientific. Its just an observation but your argument that extrapolating about larger groups from smaller samples is prejudiced is flawed.” Or, more likely, you don’t understand how to collect data scientifically. You also haven’t mentioned any financial data, an important part of your argument. You just assume it. Also, did you have access to these people’s personal data? Are you assuming their status, or did you actually know it? Wouldn’t that be illegal for you to be looking at that information?

I made another post listing specific problems and how I would address them. You just generalize about “people” who say “fix this and tax them”. What people? Fix what? Tax whom? How can I have a substantive conversation with you if you are being so vague?

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Posted: 14 July 2014 12:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
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Lausten - 14 July 2014 11:04 AM

I haven’t “decided on an answer”, I’ve studied the topic and have an opinion. I use facts to support it.

And yet you start off your post with this comment:
“I’ll admit I haven’t followed the immigration issue. Everyone calls it a big problem. What exactly is the problem with thousands of people from South America entering the US? And don’t say “it’s illegal”. I want to know what the real problem is. “

You played a little bait and switch pretending to have an open mind and then coming on with a strong preformed opinion. You say you want to know why unregulated (illegal) immigration is bad but when we try to discuss reasons you don’t want to hear them. You want to believe its all about prejudice but its not that simple. I have already pointed out that there are negative economic and social consequences for the country but you prefer to pretend they don’t exist.

Lausten - 14 July 2014 11:04 AM

You are speaking out of two sides of your mouth, “I am not claiming that my “Study” was scientific. Its just an observation but your argument that extrapolating about larger groups from smaller samples is prejudiced is flawed.” Or, more likely, you don’t understand how to collect data scientifically. You also haven’t mentioned any financial data, an important part of your argument. You just assume it. Also, did you have access to these people’s personal data? Are you assuming their status, or did you actually know it? Wouldn’t that be illegal for you to be looking at that information?

Their financial data is not really relevant here. What I said is that these people were recent immigrants which I knew because this is a standard part of the social history taken during a medical history and their insurance status ( uninsured, medicaid, private insurance etc) is also a part of their record. As the attending physician taking care of them there was absolutely nothing illegal about looking at that information. Its on the intake sheet on the front of the chart and can be critical to their care. We need to know what sort of illnesses they may have been exposed to and what social supports they may or may not have available to them when they are discharged among other things, so this information is pertinent to their care.

Lausten - 14 July 2014 11:04 AM

I provided a link and no one addressed it, other than to comment on the source, not the data. Why should I bother trying to educate further?

The Bill Moyers link does not really contain much information. It merely compares us to other countries who allow refugees in. So whats the point? Other countries are more humane than us? They are less prejudiced? They care more about the down trodden? You can’t seriously believe that. The U.S. has for decades given out more humanitarian aid than any other country. When the 2004 Tsunami devastated the far east what country sent more personal donations than ay other. I am not trying to wave the flag here but don’t try to imply that Americans are not generous to others outside our borders. And prejudice is a human trait not an American one. Look at the sectarian strife around the world.

If you want to help the people who want to come into the country you need to work on laws that allow more people to come in more easily. Implying that this is all do to prejudice and selfishness won’t get you anywhere. You need to explain why more people should be allowed in and how you would screen them to make sure the criminals are kept out and how you are going to prevent a negative economic impact or prove that there isn’t one if you think you can. I don’t have to convince the American people that there is one. They already believe that. You need to convince them there isnt one.

Lausten - 14 July 2014 11:04 AM

I made another post listing specific problems and how I would address them. You just generalize about “people” who say “fix this and tax them”. What people? Fix what? Tax whom? How can I have a substantive conversation with you if you are being so vague?

Please provide the post link here because I have not seen it. You seem to have missed the fact that my post regarding “fix this and tax them” as you say was in reference to Darrons post where he suggested that we find money to deal with the immigrant issue but the suggested methods of financing it did not include increasing taxes on the general public. He suggested we could get the money through several sources that were reasonable but there was no mention of increasing the tax rate on the average joe. My comment was simply that any solution that recommends sacrifices from others but does not include a sacrifice by the people proposing it doesn’t will have a hard time claiming the moral high ground. It just rings self serving and hollow.

There you go. That was along post. I don’t do one liners

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Posted: 14 July 2014 12:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
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You quoted the OP, I didn’t say that. I didn’t pretend anything. Take a breath. Slow down. Read a book.

Yes, you “point out” consequences, you just don’t back them up with data.
Again, two sides of the mouth, you want to claim that the US is generous, then say you have a reason to NOT be generous. You’ve been saying all this generosity is going to cause a collapse. We’ve been generous for a long time, at least 24 years according to your data, and we seem to keep flourishing. Huh.

And I could care less what the Tea Party or some morons with guns in Texas believe, that doesn’t put the burden of proof on me. If you want to NOT help children escaping violence, it’s you who needs to explain that. Even if I’m wrong in doing it (and I’m not), I’d rather error on the side of helping children.

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Posted: 14 July 2014 01:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]
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Lausten - 14 July 2014 12:51 PM

You quoted the OP, I didn’t say that. I didn’t pretend anything. Take a breath. Slow down. Read a book.

Yes, you “point out” consequences, you just don’t back them up with data.
Again, two sides of the mouth, you want to claim that the US is generous, then say you have a reason to NOT be generous. You’ve been saying all this generosity is going to cause a collapse. We’ve been generous for a long time, at least 24 years according to your data, and we seem to keep flourishing. Huh.

And I could care less what the Tea Party or some morons with guns in Texas believe, that doesn’t put the burden of proof on me. If you want to NOT help children escaping violence, it’s you who needs to explain that. Even if I’m wrong in doing it (and I’m not), I’d rather error on the side of helping children.

Sorry that was my error. We have been gong back and forth for so long I mistakenly thought it was you who started the thread. There is nothing at all contradictory about saying that the American people are generous and yet on the other hand saying they have a right to not give away everything. Everyone has a right to give what they want for the causes they prefer. If you offer a a bed and a warm meal to a stranger I would say that is a generous thing to do. If word gets out and the next day ten “needy” strangers show up at your door are you no longer generous because you decide that letting them in to live with you is more than you are willing to do?

Concerning the data I could flip this and say that you have not provided any data either and that wold certainly be true. I have at least provided an observation as a long time health care provider on the front lines. In my own experience, a disproportionate number of the people using the health care system at the public’s expense have been recent immigrants legal and otherwise. Provide me with some data to back up your side of the argument and I will start digging around for some hard data to see what the facts are but as of this moment your complaint is a bit of the pot calling the kettle black.

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Posted: 14 July 2014 01:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]
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As long as you keep providing overly simplistic arguments and getting angry because I don’t accept them, no, I’m not going to take the 28 seconds I would need to provide a link. You dismissed the one I provided. Provide one to me, I’ll dismiss it and we’ll be even. 

My country has helped refugees in the past, congress is debating the immigration issue, the guy I voted for is proposing a few billion, I’m good.

macgyver - 14 July 2014 01:15 PM

There is nothing at all contradictory about saying that the American people are generous and yet on the other hand saying they have a right to not give away everything.

We are nowhere near “giving away everything”. I have no obligation to be reasonable with you if you are going to say stupid stuff like that.

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Posted: 14 July 2014 02:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]
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No body is saying we shouldn’t help anyone. Somehow you manage to come away

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Posted: 14 July 2014 02:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]
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No one here is saying that we shouldn’t help anyone but you seem to see everything as black and white, all or none. I have stated several times that immigration is fine but opening the gates to everyone who wants to come is not, hence my analogy above. You can’t seem to understand why that would be a potential problem and believe we should just let anyone in ( Criminals and Terrorists too I assume?). If that’s not your position then clarify it for me.

You take the position that unless I can provide data proving it could be detrimental then no conversation is worthwhile. I disagree. Any conversation like this has to start with hypotheticals. Ideally it would be nice to have hard evidence to confirm or refute our theories and I have already said that I would be willing to do that. Providing me with a link is not providing evidence. I am not going to read through a whole website to see if there is something that supports your point of view especially given the quality of the last link your provided.

If you want to make a specific claim and provide data to support that then we can debate this. The problem I have found is that this is such a politically charged issue that it is difficult to find data that is published by an impartial source. There is a lot of stuff out there but the vast majority of it is hosted on sites that have an agenda on one side of this issue or the other. I can find lots of stuff to support my side but its tainted by this bias as is the majority of the stuff I can find to support your point of view. The Heritage Foundation and ImmigrationPolicy.org are not exactly there to provide unbiased info.

If you can find an organization that doesn’t have an agenda on one side of this issue where we can find independent data let me know.

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Posted: 14 July 2014 03:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]
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This article points out some of the difficulty in determining the costs of illegal immigration

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/illegal-immigrants-cost-us-100-billion-year-group/story?id=10699317

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