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Male Dominance is Harmful to the Ideals of Atheism/Humanism
Posted: 12 August 2014 03:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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Handydan - 11 August 2014 11:02 PM

Thanx MzLee, that was great. It helped to see more clearly how misogyny exists in the context of an assumption that most of us don’t realize we have gone along with; the assumption that the world is a male world that women enter as allowed or tolerated by men. It reminds me of how I had to explain to a straight friend that gay people are trying to live in a world that is defined and owned by straight people. It is a kind of “privilege”, that separates different kinds of people particularly when the “privileged” don’t see or acknowledge it.

Interestingly, they tend to feel wronged when this “privilege” discussed or exposed. They don’t want acknowledge that it exists, but they feel persecuted when it is proposed.

Exactly!

This is why the race, sex, gender preference and secular rights struggles all seem so similar, because they are. People of color are trying to be recognized in a white majority, women are trying to be recognized in a world controlled by men, gays are trying to be recognized in a world majority of straights and atheist are trying to be recognized in a world inundated by the religious.

It is the same human rights struggle to be considered equal (we are equal but we are not recognized as equal). People are people, for thousands of years as a survival group think we have judged people on what are differences are. That’s understandable but we aren’t those ignorant people anymore and we need to start assessing people for our similarities not our differences.

I am a person first!

MzL

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Posted: 12 August 2014 08:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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MzLee - 12 August 2014 03:58 AM

It is the same human rights struggle to be considered equal (we are equal but we are not recognized as equal). People are people, for thousands of years as a survival group think we have judged people on what our differences are. That’s understandable but we aren’t those ignorant people anymore and we need to start assessing people for our similarities not our differences.

At first I was going to type “we aren’t those ignorant people any more…” then I had to stop myself and consider those huge portions of humanity that are doing everything they can to keep themselves dumbed down by locking their minds within ancient stale books - and viciously rejecting every bit of rational information and learning opportunity as fast as they are offered.

After that I was going to mention that little matter of “Lebensraum” and the fact that we have been way over-populating ourselves and are overwhelming age old physical support systems and that age old societal escape valve of moving on to untrammeled ground.

Ever more fall out from that Tragedy of the Commons you know that thingie Republican/Libertarian types love to ridicule with that hubristic arrogance only the truly ignorant can muster.

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Posted: 12 August 2014 04:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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LoisL - 11 August 2014 02:49 PM

MzLee said

“I want this male dominance to go away so I can feel safe in my own community.”

It will never go away. It is a determined feature of humans—it’s human nature. We can only try to mitigate its effects.  If you need male dominance to go away to feel safe you will never feel safe. We have to think of other ways to keep ourselves safe—working with the reality of male dominance.
Lois

I understand what you’re saying. What I’m saying is it’s time to find it socially unacceptable to even subtly bully people. Out and out bullying is becoming more unacceptable and the time has come to educate to recognize the more disguised versions and call them out as well.

You are right though, in some ways I will never feel safe (safe may not be the right word, not safe or unsafe but wary or on guard for verbal assault) and some of that is on me. I will deal but damn I’m just tired of the fight. I just want to be people.

MzL

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Posted: 12 August 2014 07:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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MzLee - 12 August 2014 04:53 PM
LoisL - 11 August 2014 02:49 PM

MzLee said

“I want this male dominance to go away so I can feel safe in my own community.”

It will never go away. It is a determined feature of humans—it’s human nature. We can only try to mitigate its effects.  If you need male dominance to go away to feel safe you will never feel safe. We have to think of other ways to keep ourselves safe—working with the reality of male dominance.
Lois

I understand what you’re saying. What I’m saying is it’s time to find it socially unacceptable to even subtly bully people. Out and out bullying is becoming more unacceptable and the time has come to educate to recognize the more disguised versions and call them out as well.

You are right though, in some ways I will never feel safe (safe may not be the right word, not safe or unsafe but wary or on guard for verbal assault) and some of that is on me. I will deal but damn I’m just tired of the fight. I just want to be people.

MzL

I know, I do too. But we have to be realistic about what we are dealing with. There are vicious wild animals out there!

Lois

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Posted: 12 August 2014 07:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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Like the anti-harassment laws, I think the change will begin the workplace.
And like everything, America is behind on this issue. My County (that is, as an employer) recently adopted a statement against bullying for its workers. It was rather quietly done, but some test cases are in the works. I would recommend any organization consider doing something similar.

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Posted: 12 August 2014 08:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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Lausten - 12 August 2014 07:22 PM

Like the anti-harassment laws, I think the change will begin the workplace.
And like everything, America is behind on this issue. My County (that is, as an employer) recently adopted a statement against bullying for its workers. It was rather quietly done, but some test cases are in the works. I would recommend any organization consider doing something similar.

I like that. Thank you for sharing. smile

MzL

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Posted: 12 August 2014 09:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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@ Anti-Bullying laws - The government can’t make any difference in what a private group does - unless the group takes government money that is. If an atheist club (or any other club) is insensitive in some way, don’t associate with it.

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Posted: 13 August 2014 06:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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I just want to say how lucky you are that you even had that much!  I live near a pretty large Southern city and we don’t have an atheist organization or a humanist organization.  Philosophically speaking, all I have to talk to is the people on this forum.  My advice to you is hang on like GRIM DEATH to those few friends you made.  You don’t necessarily need a big fancy organization.  What I wouldn’t do for just a few friends to hang out with from time to time!

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Posted: 13 August 2014 08:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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mid atlantic - 12 August 2014 09:40 PM

@ Anti-Bullying laws - The government can’t make any difference in what a private group does - unless the group takes government money that is. If an atheist club (or any other club) is insensitive in some way, don’t associate with it.

That’s kinda like saying, if you don’t like what WalMart is doing, don’t shop there. Yes, our individual dollar, spent or not spent, can make a difference, but the rules of law and reason are designed to protect those with few dollars and small groups with few dollars. The government didn’t invent anti-sexual harassment laws, they grew out of people claiming to have rights that went against the culture and the majority.

A club, like a business, has protections under law and therefore has responsibilities. They can’t collect dues saying they are for some club purpose, then build a deck at the director’s home. You have some weird definition of “private group”. I’ve never heard of an atheist group of any kind that declares itself “private” to the extent of excluding women or claiming it has the right to act unconscionably against women. No one would join that group. That’s not what this group did, they claimed to be a group that promoted reason, they welcomed women, then they did not act in good faith according to their charter. That is immoral on the face of it and although it might take some time and a good lawyer, it’s illegal.

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Posted: 13 August 2014 08:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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Can you name the top woman in the Nazi party, the Zionist party, a Muslims nation, the Vatican or Gaza?
Or the top woman rabbi.
Yet history tells us that it was not always this way.
 
In the start of the dark ages, most of the healers were women, wasn’t true by the end of the dark ages.
 
Back when you had the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. God was called by his name and not by his title.
And women held the high offices of prophets and judges.
As god became more powerful the women became less powerful.
 
Now I don’t know if it is a ploy against women or the more powerful an organizations gets the more it becomes a dog eat dog leadership. 
Women might be just a little smarter and refuse to engage in that type of back stabbing politics.
 
When it comes to armies, the leadership is mostly male.
I have read the reason was that women were not allowed to head armies because they were unmorality mean and would fight to the last man and not surrender.
Don’t know if that is true or just a fable.
But one day I will get around to reading about the Amazon warriors and their battles.

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Posted: 13 August 2014 10:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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MikeYohe - 13 August 2014 08:59 AM

Can you name the top woman in the Nazi party, the Zionist party, a Muslims nation, the Vatican or Gaza?
Or the top woman rabbi.
Yet history tells us that it was not always this way.

I’ll see if I can find the reference, but I read once of a theory that the story of Abraham going to Egypt and having his wife pretend to fall in love with the Pharaoh is a rewrite of an earlier story where a more powerful priestess was in control of the situation. The rewrite was intended to put the men in the power positions.

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Posted: 13 August 2014 11:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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Great.
Nefertiti is one of my favorite Pharaohs.

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Posted: 13 August 2014 02:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
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I just want to say how lucky you are that you even had that much!  I live near a pretty large Southern city and we don’t have an atheist organization or a humanist organization.  Philosophically speaking, all I have to talk to is the people on this forum.  My advice to you is hang on like GRIM DEATH to those few friends you made.  You don’t necessarily need a big fancy organization.  What I wouldn’t do for just a few friends to hang out with from time to time!

Same here Advocatus. The closest humanist organization is a three hour drive from here, but there are 7 churches within walking distance of our house. This forum is a, uh can’t actually say “god send” but you know what I mean.  There are exactly four of us here in the village (probably more but they’re hiding I’m sure) and I hang out with only one. Man, what I wouldn’t give to be part of a group of freethinkers male and female.


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Posted: 13 August 2014 03:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
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Advocatus - 13 August 2014 06:58 AM

I just want to say how lucky you are that you even had that much!  I live near a pretty large Southern city and we don’t have an atheist organization or a humanist organization.  Philosophically speaking, all I have to talk to is the people on this forum.  My advice to you is hang on like GRIM DEATH to those few friends you made.  You don’t necessarily need a big fancy organization.  What I wouldn’t do for just a few friends to hang out with from time to time!

Thanks for the reality check. You’re right, of course, there are many who live in places even worse than Oklahoma about being secular. We are very vocal here and have started something very strong and growing. We are out and proud, so to speak and becoming not only more popular but more accepted.

I will take what you said to heart. I think I might even try going to an event with the big group. Maybe just a social event, no meeting. Nothing says I have to stay or even go back if I don’t like it. I do have friends that I can surround myself with (emotionally) for support. I’ll let you know if I do.

Thanks. smile

MzL

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Posted: 13 August 2014 03:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
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Thank you to everyone for your posts and encouragement.

You’re some kick-ass non-myth-illogical people!

:D

Lee

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