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Is beheading more humane than long winded chemical and electricity executions?
Posted: 07 September 2014 01:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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Handydan - 06 September 2014 06:14 PM
LoisL - 06 September 2014 04:11 PM
Thevillageatheist - 06 September 2014 01:22 PM

Scary, belief that revenge can be justified is at the root of a great deal of killing and suffering in general.

And has been since primates jumped out of the trees. Our distant cousins are still doing it actually. It’s a developed pattern of group behavior inherent in most societies. The question is how do we as a modern species break out of the mold? Written laws and the ability to enforce them helps but we have to somehow deprogram ourselves from the whole idea of revenge killing. Ideas anyone?


Cap’t Jack

Evolution?  confused

Lois

I think uncoupling revenge from what most people understand as our “system of justice” would be a peridime shift so vast it could never happen. Most changes in a culture happen by increments. I wonder what those increments could be and how many it might take to separate revenge from our “penal” justice system.

You’re right, revenge is part of any justice system, even though most of us won’t admit it….because most of us are liars. I wonder if it would even be possible to feel the need for a justice system, if it wasn’t for “revenge”.

[ Edited: 07 September 2014 02:01 AM by mid atlantic ]
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Posted: 07 September 2014 04:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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mid atlantic - 07 September 2014 01:51 AM

You’re right, revenge is part of any justice system, even though most of us won’t admit it….because most of us are liars.

Revenge isn’t part of any justice system and shouldn’t be. The desire for revenge weakens considerably in time if one doesn’t believe in libertarian free will, so belief in that is the main problem.

I wonder if it would even be possible to feel the need for a justice system, if it wasn’t for “revenge”.

Of course because we need deterrents, so we need rules and penalties and for them to be applied as fairly as we can.

Stephen

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Posted: 07 September 2014 11:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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StephenLawrence - 07 September 2014 04:43 AM
mid atlantic - 07 September 2014 01:51 AM

You’re right, revenge is part of any justice system, even though most of us won’t admit it….because most of us are liars.

Revenge isn’t part of any justice system and shouldn’t be. The desire for revenge weakens considerably in time if one doesn’t believe in libertarian free will, so belief in that is the main problem.

I wonder if it would even be possible to feel the need for a justice system, if it wasn’t for “revenge”.

Of course because we need deterrents, so we need rules and penalties and for them to be applied as fairly as we can.

Stephen

What we need is to take the worst criminals out of society. That’s the only thing prisons should be used for. Deterrence doesn’t work in most cases, though it may be worth a try for some lesser cases.

Lois

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Posted: 08 September 2014 12:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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In the time of the Roman Empire, beheading was reserved for Roman citizens who were convicted of crimes.  It was a considered a privilege.  Others died more painful, drawn-out deaths, as we know.

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Posted: 08 September 2014 03:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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ciceronianus - 08 September 2014 12:06 PM

In the time of the Roman Empire, beheading was reserved for Roman citizens who were convicted of crimes.  It was a considered a privilege.  Others died more painful, drawn-out deaths, as we know.

Interesting definition of privilege.

Lois

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Posted: 08 September 2014 09:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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LoisL - 08 September 2014 03:51 PM
ciceronianus - 08 September 2014 12:06 PM

In the time of the Roman Empire, beheading was reserved for Roman citizens who were convicted of crimes.  It was a considered a privilege.  Others died more painful, drawn-out deaths, as we know.

Interesting definition of privilege.

Lois

hmmm, spending a few hours hanging on a cross, with nails in your wrists slowly suffocating
Or the swing of a large sharp blade.

Sounds like a reasonable definition of being privileged, or would it just be lucky?
I know which I’d be begging for, if my number was up.

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Posted: 10 September 2014 11:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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citizenschallenge.pm - 08 September 2014 09:33 PM
LoisL - 08 September 2014 03:51 PM
ciceronianus - 08 September 2014 12:06 PM

In the time of the Roman Empire, beheading was reserved for Roman citizens who were convicted of crimes.  It was a considered a privilege.  Others died more painful, drawn-out deaths, as we know.

Interesting definition of privilege.

Lois

hmmm, spending a few hours hanging on a cross, with nails in your wrists slowly suffocating
Or the swing of a large sharp blade.

Sounds like a reasonable definition of being privileged, or would it just be lucky?
I know which I’d be begging for, if my number was up.

If your number was up it would hardly matter.

Lois

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Posted: 11 September 2014 12:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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LoisL - 07 September 2014 11:09 AM

What we need is to take the worst criminals out of society. That’s the only thing prisons should be used for. Deterrence doesn’t work in most cases, though it may be worth a try for some lesser cases.

Lois

OK although we need empirical evidence for what does and doesnt work.

I think we would be less punitive and work on better ways of getting people to behave well if we were just interested in what works and keeping suffering to a minimum.

But the problem is people general aren’t because they believe people are morally responsible in a way they just can’t be, so simply think people can deserve to suffer.

This is why saying people aren’t morally responsible in the traditional sense and don’t have the sort of free will that is supposed to support that is not just of philosophical interest, it makes a great deal of difference.

Stephen

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Posted: 11 September 2014 05:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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StephenLawrence - 11 September 2014 12:13 PM
LoisL - 07 September 2014 11:09 AM

What we need is to take the worst criminals out of society. That’s the only thing prisons should be used for. Deterrence doesn’t work in most cases, though it may be worth a try for some lesser cases.

Lois

 

I think we would be less punitive and work on better ways of getting people to behave well if we were just interested in what works and keeping suffering to a minimum.

But the problem is people general aren’t because they believe people are morally responsible in a way they just can’t be, so simply think people can deserve to suffer.

This is why saying people aren’t morally responsible in the traditional sense and don’t have the sort of free will that is supposed to support that is not just of philosophical interest, it makes a great deal of difference.

Stephen

OK although we need empirical evidence for what does and doesnt work.

We have plenty of evidence that imprisonmemt and probation don’t work to reform criminal behavior. Just look at the recidivism rates.

It doesn’t appear to me that people have free will, either.

Lois


Lois

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Posted: 11 September 2014 07:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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LoisL - 10 September 2014 11:56 AM
citizenschallenge.pm - 08 September 2014 09:33 PM
LoisL - 08 September 2014 03:51 PM
ciceronianus - 08 September 2014 12:06 PM

In the time of the Roman Empire, beheading was reserved for Roman citizens who were convicted of crimes.  It was a considered a privilege.  Others died more painful, drawn-out deaths, as we know.

Interesting definition of privilege.

Lois

hmmm, spending a few hours hanging on a cross, with nails in your wrists slowly suffocating
Or the swing of a large sharp blade.

Sounds like a reasonable definition of being privileged, or would it just be lucky?
I know which I’d be begging for, if my number was up.

If your number was up it would hardly matter.

Lois

Au contraire  red face

I believe I appreciate the difference between ‘living my days’ and ‘being in the history books’.
I’d beg for the swift sword, thankyouverymuch.    kiss

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Posted: 11 September 2014 08:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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LoisL - 11 September 2014 05:22 PM

It doesn’t appear to me that people have free will, either.

I’ve seen a lot of talk about “free will” but usually pass it by.

I’m not even sure what they mean by free will,
we live within the confines of our bodies, for better or worse depending…
we live within our families, were conflicts and patterns developed in first years play out till our dying days…
we live within society that has expectations that better be respected, or else…

Janis sang it well, “Freedom’s just another word for nothing left to lose.”
and that seems so totally true to me.

I have great latitude and freedom, precisely because I have very little materially to lose,
because my requirements are modest, I have the freedom to make work a game,
and the freedom to escape work altogether for periods to do my thing.
But, that wouldn’t be possible without also having learned how to play by the rules, and to respect their spirit and the need for those rules.
Without my three decades of double shifts and more,
to gain the experiences and skills and temperament I possess today, I’d have no freedom to play with at this stage of my life.

To bring this back to “free will”
I hear the mantra “you can be anything you dream… or you want… etc”
Bull shit.
That’s a sick joke.

We can not be anyone we want.

We are who we are,
we can only succeed by
developing that that is within us to the best of our abilities and opportunities and experiences.

Free will without recognizing our shackles is only a cartoon poster for marketeers to manipulate in order to sell stuff.

[ Edited: 11 September 2014 09:26 PM by citizenschallenge.pm ]
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Posted: 11 September 2014 08:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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As for “free will” and today’s society.

I wonder if there are any lessons for us in this

John Calhoun’s Mouse Utopia, 195?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Z760XNy4VM

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Posted: 12 September 2014 01:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
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LoisL - 11 September 2014 05:22 PM
StephenLawrence - 11 September 2014 12:13 PM
LoisL - 07 September 2014 11:09 AM

What we need is to take the worst criminals out of society. That’s the only thing prisons should be used for. Deterrence doesn’t work in most cases, though it may be worth a try for some lesser cases.

Lois

 

I think we would be less punitive and work on better ways of getting people to behave well if we were just interested in what works and keeping suffering to a minimum.

But the problem is people general aren’t because they believe people are morally responsible in a way they just can’t be, so simply think people can deserve to suffer.

This is why saying people aren’t morally responsible in the traditional sense and don’t have the sort of free will that is supposed to support that is not just of philosophical interest, it makes a great deal of difference.

Stephen

OK although we need empirical evidence for what does and doesnt work.

We have plenty of evidence that imprisonmemt and probation don’t work to reform criminal behavior. Just look at the recidivism rates.

It doesn’t appear to me that people have free will, either.

Lois


Lois

Empirical evidence is very hard to come by.  There are several variables affecting how a nations crime rate is. 
Even in controversial things like the death penalty, we also have to consider the method of execution,  when it is used, etc.
Where I have seen criminologists agree in one case, it was on an entire system of laws, rather than just a single one.
Professors Sheptyki and Wardick have written about this hear:
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&hl=en&q=TRANSnational+and+comparative+criminology+low+arabian+crime+rate+to&gws_rd=ssl#hl=en&tbm=bks&q=Most+scholars+attribute+the+low+Saudi+Arabian+crime+rate+mainly+to+the+strong+influence+of+Islam+in.

But then again, even many places that have low crime rates may have other problems so that is something to keep in mind as well.

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Posted: 12 September 2014 10:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
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StephenLawrence - 11 September 2014 12:13 PM
LoisL - 07 September 2014 11:09 AM

What we need is to take the worst criminals out of society. That’s the only thing prisons should be used for. Deterrence doesn’t work in most cases, though it may be worth a try for some lesser cases.

Lois

OK although we need empirical evidence for what does and doesnt work.

I think we would be less punitive and work on better ways of getting people to behave well if we were just interested in what works and keeping suffering to a minimum.

But the problem is people general aren’t because they believe people are morally responsible in a way they just can’t be, so simply think people can deserve to suffer.

This is why saying people aren’t morally responsible in the traditional sense and don’t have the sort of free will that is supposed to support that is not just of philosophical interest, it makes a great deal of difference.

It doesn’t really. IMO, people are determinded to act in certain ways and trying to impose moral responsibility from outside doesn’t have much effect. This is proven every day.

We’ve had millions of churches throughout history preaching moral responsibility and people in the churches are nevertheless committing every kind of immoral act.

Lois

 

 

Stephen

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Posted: 13 September 2014 01:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
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citizenschallenge.pm - 11 September 2014 08:36 PM
LoisL - 11 September 2014 05:22 PM

It doesn’t appear to me that people have free will, either.

I’ve seen a lot of talk about “free will” but usually pass it by.

I’m not even sure what they mean by free will,

There is more than one meaning of free will and people usually believe in more than one version. There is one version which a number of people such as Sam Harris see as harmful because it increases hatred, strengthens the desire for revenge and lengthens it’s duration, amongst other things. I’ll tell you what that is.

I need to start with a little bit about determinism, the consensus amongst philosophers is that any version of free will that makes sense must be possible in a deterministic universe.The reason for that is indeterminism can’t possibly give us free will.

So it makes sense to assume determinism when thinking about free will since indeterminism can’t change anything.

So assuming determinism we couldn’t have done otherwise without our distant pasts having been appropriately different, since given the distant past we had there was only one physically possible outcome.

What this means is we couldn’t have done otherwise without circumstances beyond our control, i.e our distant past, having been appropriately different.

So when we don’t do what we should do we are simply unfortunate that our distant past wasn’t set up as it needed to be for that to have been the one physically possible future that followed.

And that’s what people deny on mass, what they think is we could have done otherwise in the actual situation without the need for anything out of our control to have been different to have brought about that behaviour.

So what they believe and what I mean by free will in this context is that we could have done otherwise without anything out of our control having been different.

It’s this concept of free will that the usual view of moral responsibility is based on. The usual view being that it could make sense for god to punish or reward us after death for what we have done. Atheists generally believe in this version of moral responsibility just as Christians do. But of course it makes no sense at all (assuming determinism) because what god would see is we’re all merely fortunate or unfortunate to have the distant pasts he gave us.

So we are not morally responsible by the usual view of moral responsibility and we don’t have the version of free will that is supposed to give us that moral responsibility. Both of which people ordinarily believe in.

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