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vaccinations/immunization
Posted: 07 May 2008 08:26 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 121 ]
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GdB - 07 May 2008 08:18 AM

There are even (real medical) doctors who support anti vaccination ideas… Not too many I assume, but there are a few here in Switzerland.
We are living in a dangerous world.

Given any lunatic idea there will always be a few people with (limited) credentials who support it. There are a few scientists who support creationism. There was a tenured Harvard professor who believed that people were being abducted by aliens. Etc. Finding a small number of fringe scientists is easy on any subject. The question for any reputable investigator, however, is whether or not there is a real scientific consensus on a subject, or whether there is not. In the case of vaccination, as in the case of creationism, there is an overwhelming scientific consensus.

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Posted: 07 May 2008 09:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 122 ]
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http://www.fda.gov/cber/label/dtapgla070703LB.pdf

From the INFANRIX safety study, provided by Mackenzie – here are the ingredients of the DTaP vaccine:

Modified Stainer Scholte liquid medium - charcoal agar with 10% defibrinated horse blood http://jcm.asm.org/cgi/reprint/26/12/2558.pdf 

Modified Latham medium derived from bovine casein - modified by replacing 25g of casein digest by 20 g of polypeptone and 10 g of whale heart extract and by adding 100 ug of folic acid per liter. http://iai.asm.org/cgi/reprint/12/5/1147.pdf

Bovine extract, bovine casein and calf (bovine) sera—It is common knowledge that bovine blood products can be contaminated with viruses, and bovine viral diarrhea virus (BVDV) is the one most often contaminating fetal bovine serum. http://ec.europa.eu/food/fs/sc/scah/out50_en.pdf

Formaldehyde –  ≤ 100 mcg per dose – This works out to ≤ 0.1 ppm.  In comparison to a law that was passed to reduce exposure of this same toxin to industrial workers: In 1987 OSHA passed a law that reduced the amount of formaldehyde to which workers can be exposed over an 8 hour work day from 3 ppm to 1ppm.  In May 1992, the law was amended and the formaldehyde exposure limit was further reduced to 0.75 ppm.  Keep in mind that exposure to Formaldehyde is based on adults, so obviously there would be a lower threshold or safety margin for children http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/factsheet/Risk/formaldehyde
As well refer to http://100777.com/node/1117 where it states, gastrointestinal or liver toxicant immunotoxicant, neurotoxicant, reproductive toxicant, respiratory toxicant, skin or sense organ toxicant. It is more hazardous than most chemicals in 5 out of 12 ranking systems on at least 8 federal regulatory lists. As well, it’s ranked as one of the most hazardous compounds (worst 10%) to ecosystems and human health. 

Phenoxyehtanol 2.5 mg per dose – Also known as antifreeze. The substance is toxic to kidneys, the nervous system and liver.  See MSDS at http://www.sciencelab.com/xMSDS-2_Phenoxyethanol-9926486

Tween 80 100 mcg per dose – Also known as polysorbate 80. May be contaminated with 1,4-dioxane, a carcinogen. While dioxane can be removed from products easily and economically by vacuum stripping during the manufacturing process, there is no way to determine which products have undergone this process. Labels are not required to list this. From:  http://lesstoxicguide.ca/index.asp?fetch=personal

Aluminum 0.625 mg per dose -  According to the CDC - The EPA has recommended a Secondary Maximum Contaminant Level (SMCL) of 0.05–0.2 milligrams per liter (mg/L) for aluminum in drinking water. http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts22.html#bookmark06  Note the amount in just one dose of a vaccine is 3-12 times more than the maximum amount to be considered hazardous in drinking water.

As well as our inactivated vaccine compounds, Pertussis – 25 mcg PT, 25 mcg FHA, and 8 mcg pertactin, 10Lf Tetanus toxoid and 25Lf of Diphtheria toxoids.

Once this mixture is brewed and stewed, purified and sterilized, filtered and detoxified, it ready for injection into your precious child.  Remember that this cocktail of chemicals is recommended because it is supposed to prevent a childhood illness. We have been assured by the “experts” that it is safer to have this scientifically altered brew of viruses and bacteria toxoids injected into our bodies than being exposed to the actual disease.

Vaccinating with the recommended 5 doses of DTaP will provide in addtion to the inactivated vaccine compounds the child with: 500 mcg of Tween 80, 10mg of antifreeze, 3.125 mg of Aluminum, ≤ 500 mcg Formaldehyde, traces of bovine materials, traces of horse blood and potential viruses found in these animals. 3 of the 5 shots are administered during the first 6 months of life which is concerniing considering the quantity of chemicals vs body weight.

And somehow you all believe that this stuff leads to “ultimate health”.

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Posted: 07 May 2008 09:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 123 ]
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You can list all the scary-sounding chemical you want (and I haven’t got the time to see if these are even really in the vaccine, since you’ve been mistaken or dishonest about such things before in this thread). It’s just an appeal to emotiuon unless you can demonstrate anybody has ever been harmed by any of them. If tens of millions of people have gotten the vaccines and you can’t prove (which you have so far failed dramatically to do) that they’re making people sick, then all of this is just more irrational fear mongering. You’re not even consistent. You warn of the danger of infectious agents in products from cattle, then you warn of the dangers of the formaldehyde used to kill those agents so they can’t be harmful.

Ok, just checking some of your links. The supposed “whale heart” ingredient is a link to an immunology study having to do with isolating peptides from tetanus neurotoxin for research. It has nothing to do with vaccines and there is no evidence that this substance is present in the vaccine describe in my orginal link. You’re just freely making this stuff up to scare people, which is not only scientifically unsound but ethically obscene. I’m sure you think the end justifies the means, but all zealots and fanatics justify lying that way.

[ Edited: 07 May 2008 09:49 AM by mckenzievmd ]
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Posted: 07 May 2008 09:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 124 ]
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weldesgin - 07 May 2008 08:09 AM

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Of the 64 cases reported, 13 were under one year of age, 7 cases between 12 and 15 months old and had not yet been vaccinated, 14 children between the ages of 16 months to 19 years had not been vaccinated due to religious or personal beliefs, OR HAD MISSED THE VACCINATION SCHEDULE (meaning that some of those 14 case had received at least one dose and were inadequately vaccinated) 7 cases between the ages of 16 months to 19 years were appropriately vaccinated and, 13 more patients over 20 years old had “undocumented vaccination status” (which does not necessarily mean that they never received the MMR vaccine) and 2 got it in Europe.  http://www.bio-medicine.org/medicine-news-1/Measles-Outbreak-Rises-to-64-Cases—Most-Since-2001-18225-1/
You are distorting the facts.  Claiming that “all but one who got the measles was unvaccinated” is falsification of facts: the majority of those who got the measles were A) too young for it B) considered to have “unknown vaccination history”, which does not necessarily mean that they were never vaccinated. C) Not adequately immunized, ie did not receive 2 doses. The 7 remaining cases are not mentioned, and no info is provided as to whether or not they were vaccinated.


“In the U.S. outbreaks this year, two-thirds of children who are old enough to be immunized but are not turned out not to be immunized because of personal belief or religious exception,” Schuchat said. “This is a new trend, and I am concerned these communities may be growing,” she Dr. Anne Schuchat, director of CDC’s National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Diseases (from your source!)


The Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP) recommends administration of the first dose of M-M-R II at 12-15 months of age and administration of the second dose of M-M-R II at 4-6 years of age. In addition, some public health jurisdictions mandate the age for revaccination. Consult the complete text of applicable guidelines regarding routine revaccination including that of high-risk adult populations. Local health authorities may recommend measles vaccination of infants between 6-12 months of age in outbreak situations.

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Posted: 07 May 2008 10:04 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 125 ]
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Mackenzie
“unless you can demonstrate anyone has been harmed”  You obviously do not check VAERS reports.  There are thousands and thousands of cases every year reported to VAERS due to harm caused by vaccines. 
With respect to bovine viruses in vaccine batches - read the document http://ec.europa.eu/food/fs/sc/scah/out50_en.pdf

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Posted: 07 May 2008 12:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 126 ]
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And you, weldesgin, obviously don’t understand scientific causality. What you did was list all sorts of chemicals and try to imply these were dangers to people getting vaccines. The adverse events reported to VAERS are 1) not automaticlaly proven to be caused by vaccines, only associated in time, which is why I’ve explained repeatedly to you that your false correlations regarding autism, SIDS, etc don’t hold up, and 2) even if caused by vaccines these events may have nothing to do with these chemicals you list. Most vaccine adverse events are immune-mediated due to the individual’s reaction to the antigen/infectious agent present, and some are likely idiosyncratic reactions to adjuvants. None of this has anything to do with the scare tactics you employ to imply there are sinister “toxins” in vaccines that are making people sick and that should make us give up on vaccinations. Lies, misinformation, and sloppy logic yet again.

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Posted: 07 May 2008 12:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 127 ]
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Mackenzie
“Tetanus toxin is produced by growing Clostridium tetani in a modified Latham medium derived from bovine casein.”  Quoted directly form the Infanrix Study.
“Tetanus toxin…Clostridium tetani was used for toxin production in a modified Latham medium. The Latham medium was modified by replacing 25 gof casein digest by 20 g ofpolypeptone (Daigo EiyokagakuCo.) and 10 g of whale heart extract (NissuiSeiyaku Co.)”  Quote directly from the link I provided for the Latham medium.

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Posted: 07 May 2008 12:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 128 ]
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“And you, weldesgin, obviously don’t understand scientific causality. What you did was list all sorts of chemicals and try to imply these were dangers to people getting vaccines. The adverse events reported to VAERS are 1) not automaticlaly proven to be caused by vaccines, only associated in time, which is why I’ve explained repeatedly to you that your false correlations regarding autism, SIDS, etc don’t hold up, and 2) even if caused by vaccines these events may have nothing to do with these chemicals you list. Most vaccine adverse events are immune-mediated due to the individual’s reaction to the antigen/infectious agent present, and some are likely idiosyncratic reactions to adjuvants. None of this has anything to do with the scare tactics you employ to imply there are sinister “toxins” in vaccines that are making people sick and that should make us give up on vaccinations. Lies, misinformation, and sloppy logic yet again”

  Of course not…injecting antifreeze, high doses of aluminum and formaldehyde is perfectly safe.  Adverse reactions are only a “figment of the imagination”  and are “unproven”.  Scientifically speaking, injecting chemicals into babies and children cannot cause a reaction, it was “due to an underlying disorder”  Amazingly enough, you even believe this to be true.

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Posted: 07 May 2008 01:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 129 ]
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2-phenoxyethanol is a preservative to stabilize the vaccine. The alternative is to run the risk of the vaccine going bad.

Aluminum and formaldehyde are not at “high doses”; remember that we are not talking about drinking water which is ingested every day of your life. We are talking about a vaccine which is injected once or a few times over a lifetime. The dose in one injection of this vaccine has as much as a few days’ worth of aluminum if found in drinking water. It’s the same as taking a dental or chest X-ray. If you had that dosage every minute, or every day, of your life, yes, you would be ill. But the point is that the use of X-rays is safe precisely because you’re NOT getting them every minute or every day of your life.

Really, you need to learn about something called a “cost-benefit analysis”. You are simply focusing on the dangers or costs of vaccinations without paying the slightest attention to their benefits. It’s precisely the same as saying that cars should be outlawed because over 40,000 people a year die in motor vehicles each year in the US.

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Posted: 07 May 2008 01:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 130 ]
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Whale heart- As I pointed out, the particular modification of the standard Latham medium referred to in the research article was specific to that research study. This does not imply that anything called “modified Latham medium” has this ingredient in it. I think it unlikely that whale heart has widespread uses in vaccine manufacture, though I am open to some evidence this is true. So far, you have not provided it, though you think you have.

“High doses” is hyperbolic BS. And you have yet to provide any research or evidence linking formaldehyde used to produce vaccines has any health risks. It likely prevents adverse vaccine events by preventing contamination of vaccines with infectious microorganisms, though you hold this out as a threat too since you will do anything to make vaccines sound scary even if it means arguing for two mutually contradictory risks at the same time. Ultimately, you have this irrational phobia about “bad chemicals” that is not justified by any reality. Again, I’m open to entertaining real data or even hypothetical links between vaccine ingredients and health problems that can be tested, but repeat hyperbolic whining about “toxins” and false correlational arguments ain’t it.

HERE is a link form the Children’s hopsital of Pennsylvania discussing this issue of formaldehyde safety in vaccines, which I’m sure your biases and assumptions will not let you appreciate but may be useful to more rational readers of this thread.

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Posted: 07 May 2008 04:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 131 ]
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weldesgin - 07 May 2008 08:16 AM

Mrians
I suggest you look up those real sources that were provided.  1) the FDA safety study for infanrix, which is nothing more then human expirementation using infants, by comparing the reactions one vaccine vs another and then claiming vaccine A must be safe because it did not cause any worse reactions than vaccine B.
2) The CDC source which gave a brief overview of whooping cough and 3) a CDC source why immunization is important.  These are NOT studies or proof of safety or efficacy of any one given vaccine.

The truth is, as I said before, what you are saying are rare side-effects and not the common thing.  The majority of children do not have a problem with vaccines and they are helpful to people in the prevention of disease.

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“Sometimes in order to see the light, you have to risk the dark.” ~ Iris Hineman (Lois Smith) The Minority Report

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Posted: 07 May 2008 05:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 132 ]
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weldesgin - 07 May 2008 12:55 PM

  Of course not…injecting antifreeze, high doses of aluminum and formaldehyde is perfectly safe.  Adverse reactions are only a “figment of the imagination”  and are “unproven”.  Scientifically speaking, injecting chemicals into babies and children cannot cause a reaction, it was “due to an underlying disorder”  Amazingly enough, you even believe this to be true.

I was sitting here minding my own busines when my BS alarm went off again and I knew it had to be weldesgin. Lets look at these three ‘deadly’ ingredients found in vaccines without all the hyperbole.

For info on formaldehyde refer to this:

From the referenced article below in the Journal Pediatrics.

“The quantity of formaldehyde contained in individual vaccines does not exceed 0.1 mg (Table 5). This quantity of formaldehyde is considered to be safe for 2 reasons. First, formaldehyde is an essential intermediate in human metabolism and is required for the synthesis of thymidine, purines, and amino acids.76 Therefore, all humans have detectable quantities of formaldehyde in their circulation (approximately 2.5 µg of formaldehyde/mL of blood).77 Assuming an average weight of a 2-month-old of 5 kg and an average blood volume of 85 mL/kg, the total quantity of formaldehyde found naturally in an infant’s circulation would be approximately 1.1 mg—a value at least 10-fold greater than that contained in any individual vaccine.”

Addressing Parents’ Concerns: Do Vaccines Contain Harmful Preservatives, Adjuvants, Additives, or Residuals? PEDIATRICS Vol. 112 No. 6 December 2003, pp. 1394-1397

In regards to Aluminum you might want ot look at these facts:

Aluminum content of vaccines:

The amount of aluminum in vaccines currently licensed in the US ranges from 0.85–0.125 mg/dose
Vaccine Volume 20, Supplement 3, 31 May 2002, Pages S18-S23

Daily Aluminum intake:

The daily aluminum intake ( in adult humans) by means of normo- and hypocaloric menus was computed, and ranges between 2.4231 and 0.8677 mg aluminum.

Rev Med Chir Soc Med Nat Iasi. 2000 Jul-Sep;104(3):107-12

And consistent with your never ending flare for the dramatic ( and inaccurate) concerning your comment about antifreeze. The main ingredient in antifreeze is Ethylene glycol. Check this very complete and extensive document from the CDC

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/B/excipient-table-2.pdf

It lists the known ingredients in virtually every vaccine on the market. You will not find Ethylene Glycol listed anywhere.

I think dougsmith really hit the nail on the head with his car fatality analogy. The problem weldesgin is that you are so completely and rabidly antivaccine that you have lost all perspective. You hunt around the internet for scraps of information that will support your fears and ignore a century of study and experience that prove the effectiveness and relative safety of vaccines. Even the VAER’s own data lists less than 100 deaths associated with ALL vaccines last year in this country of 300,000,000 people. By any measure that is a minute amount. Compare that to the many thousands that used to die annualy from vaccine preventable diseases, and no reasonable person would be having this discussion unless they had completely lost their mind.

Keep trying though. Maybe some day you will get lucky and actually post something accurate on here.

[ Edited: 07 May 2008 06:41 PM by macgyver ]
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Posted: 07 May 2008 07:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 133 ]
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dougsmith - 07 May 2008 01:12 PM

Really, you need to learn about something called a “cost-benefit analysis”. You are simply focusing on the dangers or costs of vaccinations without paying the slightest attention to their benefits. It’s precisely the same as saying that cars should be outlawed because over 40,000 people a year die in motor vehicles each year in the US.

.....or that we should stop breathing because the air is no longer pure…

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Posted: 08 May 2008 08:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 134 ]
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For me its the question of “What if” What if the establishment medical status quo is wrong?  What if Mercury in vaccination does cause autism, asthma, ADHD, mercury poisoning?  What if by immunizing my child I am doing far more damage to his brain and developing immune system then a possible exposure to and highly likely survival of a childhood illness, like measles and rubella?  What if I let them inject my beautiful boy’s little body with 32 doses (yes 32 doses before he is 2) of dead and attenuated viruses, dervied of the pus of sick pigs and embryonic chickens and preserved with 250 times the recommended safe amount of heavy metals, including aluminum, formaldehyde and mercury and he happens to be one of those kids who develops a reaction?  What if he happens to be that one out of 166 kids who becomes autistic, or develops diabetes or asthma or some other autoimmune disorder that is increasingly affecting our kids?  Maybe they are safe.  Maybe I should trust what they tell me and vaccinate my baby.  I mean the powers that be have never been wrong or dishonest about anything ever before, have they?  The coal companies never denied black lung.  The asbestos corporations and the US government didn’t deny white lung to military shipyard workers.  The tobacco company never hid research…well we know.  Agent orange, depleted uranium shell exposure, anthrax vaccination, lead in paint and gasoline.. Have they?  Thats the question.

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Posted: 08 May 2008 09:17 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 135 ]
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eswh1987 - 08 May 2008 08:37 AM

For me its the question of “What if” What if the establishment medical status quo is wrong?  What if Mercury in vaccination does cause autism, asthma, ADHD, mercury poisoning?  What if by immunizing my child I am doing far more damage to his brain and developing immune system then a possible exposure to and highly likely survival of a childhood illness, like measles and rubella?  What if I let them inject my beautiful boy’s little body with 32 doses (yes 32 doses before he is 2)of dead and attenuated viruses, dervied of the pus of sick pigs and embryonic chickens and preserved with 250 times the recommended safe amount of heavy metals, including aluminum, formaldehyde and mercury and he happens to be one of those kids who develops a reaction?

Did you even read the information I posted above?? This isn’t even close to being factual, but then again facts were never your strength.

addendum: Oops I thought this post was from weldesgin. You both use the same faulty reasoning and screetching hyperbole.

eswh1987 - 08 May 2008 08:37 AM

What if he happens to be that one out of 166 kids who becomes autistic, or develops diabetes or asthma or some other autoimmune disorder that is increasingly affecting our kids?  Maybe they are safe.  Maybe I should trust what they tell me and vaccinate my baby.  I mean the powers that be have never been wrong or dishonest about anything ever before, have they?  The coal companies never denied black lung.  The asbestos corporations and the US government didn’t deny white lung to military shipyard workers.  The tobacco company never hid research…well we know.  Agent orange, depleted uranium shell exposure, anthrax vaccination, lead in paint and gasoline.. Have they?  Thats the question.

No. The question is perspective. You are so worried about the “What ifs” that you completely ignore the “What is”. Using your logic we shouldn’t eat becuase even though starvation will lead to death, “what if” the food has too much mercury, or pesticides, or hormones. And if we go organic “what if” the organic fertilizer is contaminated with ecoli.  You have completely lost the ability to make any kind of rational risk analysis. Its a wonder you are able to function in society at all.

[ Edited: 08 May 2008 09:22 AM by macgyver ]
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