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vaccinations/immunization
Posted: 17 June 2007 10:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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I found a good debunking of Kennedy’s article at Slate here…
http://www.slate.com/id/2123647/

Here is the link to the original article http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/7395411/deadly_immunity/

Here is the link to the editor’s defensive response to the article http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/7483530/kennedy_report_sparks_controversy

Here is the link to the story of the little boy who went into a coma after a vaccine.  Now that I’ve had a second look at it, the opinions of the parents are clearly biased, and they don’t seem to have much evidence of a connectioni between the vaccine and the incident.  Sorry to include it, except for it being the reason that I only have my daughter take one vaccine at a time for legal precautions.

http://www.jacksonpresleydiamond.com/story.htm

It’s all very interesting.

[ Edited: 17 June 2007 11:37 AM by ticktock ]
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Posted: 17 June 2007 11:00 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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I don’t have the time right now to research the specific study you site, but [hurl=http://www.immunizationinfo.org/immunization_science.cfm?cat=1]HERE[/url] is another link specifically referencing epidemiological research on thimerosol and autism. Bottom line is that while extremely rare idiosyncratic side effects to vaccination do occur, when you look at large populations there is no global association between vaccination generally nor the specific vaccine concerns (thimerosol, multivalent vaccines) you raise and autism or other serious health problems. Individual anecdotes are powerful emotionally, but they just don’t translate into sound advice for the what to do. All therapies, including vaccination, have risks, the question is do the benefits outweigh the risks, and I think that for vaccines they clearly do. Does this comfort individual parents who’s children become ill, either due to vaccines or at the same time they recieve vaccines? Of course not. But warning people about specific risks that don’t actually have a sound basis in fact, and then potentially encouraging them to avoid likely beneficial Tx is a bad idea. I’m not saying we know everything about what vaccines can do, but I think it’s well-established that the risks are small and unpredictable (because they happen to very few individuals and we don’t yet know why), and the benefits are larger and more reliable.

Any of the MDs or others here have more information for us?

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Posted: 03 April 2008 06:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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mckenzievmd - 17 June 2007 09:05 AM

Ticktock,

Remeber the old saw-correlation does not equal cause/effect. The likely reason rates of vaccination and autism are correlated is that both have independantly increased at the same time. A lot of research has gone into this, and the reality is no cause/effect relationship has been found between vaccination and autism. HERE is a site summarizing the references disproving this hypothesis.

Maybe its too late to comment on this. I meant to come back a while ago and got side tracked but here is something to consider. As has been mentioned elsehwere there are several possibilities to consider when you find a correlation. Either the correlation is significant or its not. If its significant then either A caused B to change, or B caused A to change, or some unidentified factor C is causing A and B to change.

In the case of autism and vaccines the correlation is very dubious to begin with. Autism diagnostic criteria are a recent development and nearly all medical experts admit that autism was simply not recognized as often in the past even when children had it. Also keep in mind that few people have the time to track down the data ( especially data on China) to determine if people like Kennedy are telling the truth. People like him depend on that and hope that you will simply accept it as truth. But for arguments sake lets assume there actually is an increase in autism that correlates with the increase in use of thimerisol. The simplest explanation could simply be that Autism (A) and Thimerisol (B) were both increasing as a result of better access to health care (C). Better access obviously means more people get vaccinated, and more kids get to see doctors who then make the diagnosis.

Always be very suspicious of anyone who claims to have identified a correlation and then refuses to see anything but a dirrect cause and effect relationship. Such people have an agenda and are not looking at the data objectively

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Posted: 12 April 2008 07:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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First of all, as a Pediatric Intensive care unit nurse in a large well respected University Affiliated facility, I think that any one who elects not to vaccinate their child should watch as a child dies of whooping cough, or chicken pox as I have, despite all of our modern high tech medical miracle machines. they should see the chicken pox encephalopathies and remember that Helen Keller became blind and deaf after contracting childhood measles. They should deal with the respiratory difficulties that come with mumps and see the birth defects when a non immune pregnant woman catches German measles.I rememer taking care of infants left with swiss cheese brains after a bout of H.flu, I’m so glad those days are past.

Adults with whooping cough don’t always get off so easy either, one of my coworkers came down with whooping cough, which was diagnosed after her coughing broke a couple of her ribs, she was off work for almost 6 months. Even after she was no longer contagious, she continued to whoop to the point that she could not return to work for a while.

We depend upon herd immunity to protect those few who are unable because of various medical conditions. We will have more and more outbreaks like the mumps epidemic last year in the Midwest and England, and more and more needless deaths.

I remember catching all of those ‘childhood diseases’, they were not pleasant, and I remember some friends getting quite ill. My children were all vaccinated. Without hesitation.

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Posted: 22 April 2008 02:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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I am very opposed to vaccines and do not consider them “safe and effective” or a healthy choice.  Most of the comments on his forum do not provide any solid evidence or scientific studies which favour vaccines.  Even if only half the stories were true about the serious adverse events associated with vaccines, I still would not vaccinate my children or myself.  Watch this short video:
the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edikv0zbAlU
I think it is cruel to inject kids with all these unnatural toxins to “prevent” disease.  Read the FDA website and the CDC website and all the adverse events reported with the use of vaccines.  Even with all the childhood diseases put together there are fewer side effects associated with them then with a single vaccine.  How about advocating, proper nutrition, active lifestyle and enough rest?  Instead we poison our kids with over 20 shots before they’re enter school, to “provide good basic protection”  (Canda Public Health Website ) There is not one study that demonstrates 100% effectiveness with the use of vaccines and outbreaks are very common, although they are not reported. Where I live there have been numerous outbreaks, amongst IMMUNIZED individuals but for some odd reason it is never made public.  Very strange!! 
Anyone who is opposed to vaccines gets blasted with all the horror stories of when those diseases were prevalent, but make a mention of all the common diseases of today and the possibility that this is linked to vaccines? Opposition from everyone, like its not even remotely possible, even though there have been numerous studies suggesting cause and effect. 
Read trusted websites, FDA, CDC etc. Oddly enough, they provide the most contradictory information about vaccines.  Were you aware the the incidence of the flu INCREASES each year, even though the flu shot is given in record numbers????
Not to mention, were you aware that vaccines are made from aborted babies, monkey cells, dogs, hamsters, cow brains, sheep, etc???  There are still trace amounts of DNA, RNA, animal proteins in each and every vaccine, as well as a host of toxins to isolate the virus.  I know its “trace amounts”, but don’t tell me its “healthy” or “safe”.  Now lets put this stuff in our MOST vulnerable population, infants and children WHOSE IMMUNE SYSTEM IS JUST DEVELOPING!!!!
Were you aware of the amount of money that these companies make off of vaccines? In the billions.
Have any of you read the book by Edward Hooper?  Probably not, or you wouldn’t think twice about immunizing your own children.

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Posted: 22 April 2008 04:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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weldesgin - 22 April 2008 02:07 PM

Even if only half the stories were true about the serious adverse events associated with vaccines, I still would not vaccinate my children or myself.

You and your children are a danger to our society. Shame on you.

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Posted: 22 April 2008 04:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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Weldesgin,
You are seriously misinformed. The only excuse for saying something as ignorant as “Even with all the childhood diseases put together there are fewer side effects associated with them then with a single vaccine” is that you’ve grown up in a world where children are not expected to die routinely of infectious diseases. Ask somebody’s grandmother about polio, bacterial meningitis, or any of the other “minor” childhood diseases vaccines have nearly eradicated. I won’t bother to correct the many factual errors in your post because you are obviously a zealot uninterested in facts, but for anyone else interested HERE is the CDC webpage on vaccine safety with lots of REAL information and references. Vaccines are rarely “100% effective,” and if you expect them to be it’s because you don’t understand the epidemiology of disease and vaccination. You’re lucky other people aren’t as deluded as you are, because they provide a barrier of protection around you and your children against the diseases you are too foolish or fearful to protect yourself and your children against.

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Posted: 22 April 2008 06:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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weldesgin - 22 April 2008 02:07 PM

I am very opposed to vaccines and do not consider them “safe and effective” or a healthy choice.  Most of the comments on his forum do not provide any solid evidence or scientific studies which favour vaccines.  Even if only half the stories were true about the serious adverse events associated with vaccines, I still would not vaccinate my children or myself.  Watch this short video:
the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edikv0zbAlU
I think it is cruel to inject kids with all these unnatural toxins to “prevent” disease.  Read the FDA website and the CDC website and all the adverse events reported with the use of vaccines.  Even with all the childhood diseases put together there are fewer side effects associated with them then with a single vaccine.  How about advocating, proper nutrition, active lifestyle and enough rest?  Instead we poison our kids with over 20 shots before they’re enter school, to “provide good basic protection”  (Canda Public Health Website ) There is not one study that demonstrates 100% effectiveness with the use of vaccines and outbreaks are very common, although they are not reported. Where I live there have been numerous outbreaks, amongst IMMUNIZED individuals but for some odd reason it is never made public.  Very strange!! 
Anyone who is opposed to vaccines gets blasted with all the horror stories of when those diseases were prevalent, but make a mention of all the common diseases of today and the possibility that this is linked to vaccines? Opposition from everyone, like its not even remotely possible, even though there have been numerous studies suggesting cause and effect. 
Read trusted websites, FDA, CDC etc. Oddly enough, they provide the most contradictory information about vaccines.  Were you aware the the incidence of the flu INCREASES each year, even though the flu shot is given in record numbers????
Not to mention, were you aware that vaccines are made from aborted babies, monkey cells, dogs, hamsters, cow brains, sheep, etc???  There are still trace amounts of DNA, RNA, animal proteins in each and every vaccine, as well as a host of toxins to isolate the virus.  I know its “trace amounts”, but don’t tell me its “healthy” or “safe”.  Now lets put this stuff in our MOST vulnerable population, infants and children WHOSE IMMUNE SYSTEM IS JUST DEVELOPING!!!!
Were you aware of the amount of money that these companies make off of vaccines? In the billions.
Have any of you read the book by Edward Hooper?  Probably not, or you wouldn’t think twice about immunizing your own children.

mckenzievmd’s response was right on. It’s difficult for me to respond to these types of posts and at that same time control my anger. The absolute ignorance of your post would be comical if there wasn’t a substantial portion of the population that believes the same nonsense and puts us all in danger. As mckenzievmd said, those who forgo vaccinations are able to do so only because the rest of us are vaccinated and provide heard immunity from which the non vaccinated individuals benefit. If no one ever got vaccinated polio, small pox, and even illnesses like measles, mumps, and chicken pox would kill millions every year! That’s not hyperbole, that’s a fact.

As far as “the common disease of today” being linked to vaccines ther are none. There is not one illness that I can think of that has ever been connected to vaccines. If you are referring to autism, that issue is dead. Three large studies looking for a link came up empty.

I am a physician and have vaccinated all of my children without reservation. I don’t need to read Edward Hooper’s book, I ‘ve read the science. Ed Hooper’s opinions are irrelevant. He’s not a scientist, he’s a journalist who’s been ticked off with the medical and scientific community ever since they shot down his theories on the origins of HIV because his ‘scientific’ evidence fell apart under scrutiny.

I’ve been vaccinating people for over 20 years and besides a little soreness at the vaccination site I have yet to have a serious vaccine side effect. I have on the other hand seen people die from chicken pox and influenza which could have been prevented with proper vaccinations. I can’t say I’ve ever seen a person die from small pox but, oh yeah, that’s because it was erradicated by a worldwide vaccination program - not by good nutrition. I have also taken care of people who were crippled as children by polio before vaccines were available. Prior to vaccinations childhood mortality rates were dramatically higher than they are today and mostly due to infectious disease which are now rare because of vaccines. Your comments show a significant ignorance of history as well as medicine.

Before you try to argue this point, and certainly before you try to poison the minds of others, educate yourself. Start by taking a science class or two. Reading a few quack websites and books by fools with an ax to grind does not make you an expert.

I’m sorry if the tone of this comes off a bit nasty or arrogant. That’s not my usual tone, but when someone makes comments that put the lives of others at risk they deserve a good smack in the face. Everyone has a right to their own opinion, but you don’t have a right to promote your opinion, when it is ill informed and puts others at risk. This is a debate for the scientific community not amateurs, and the debate is over.

[ Edited: 22 April 2008 06:43 PM by macgyver ]
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Posted: 22 April 2008 06:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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weldesgin - 22 April 2008 02:07 PM

I am very opposed to vaccines and do not consider them “safe and effective” or a healthy choice.  Most of the comments on his forum do not provide any solid evidence or scientific studies which favour vaccines.  Even if only half the stories were true about the serious adverse events associated with vaccines, I still would not vaccinate my children or myself.  Watch this short video:
the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edikv0zbAlU
I think it is cruel to inject kids with all these unnatural toxins to “prevent” disease.  Read the FDA website and the CDC website and all the adverse events reported with the use of vaccines.  Even with all the childhood diseases put together there are fewer side effects associated with them then with a single vaccine.  How about advocating, proper nutrition, active lifestyle and enough rest?  Instead we poison our kids with over 20 shots before they’re enter school, to “provide good basic protection”  (Canda Public Health Website ) There is not one study that demonstrates 100% effectiveness with the use of vaccines and outbreaks are very common, although they are not reported. Where I live there have been numerous outbreaks, amongst IMMUNIZED individuals but for some odd reason it is never made public.  Very strange!! 
Anyone who is opposed to vaccines gets blasted with all the horror stories of when those diseases were prevalent, but make a mention of all the common diseases of today and the possibility that this is linked to vaccines? Opposition from everyone, like its not even remotely possible, even though there have been numerous studies suggesting cause and effect. 
Read trusted websites, FDA, CDC etc. Oddly enough, they provide the most contradictory information about vaccines.  Were you aware the the incidence of the flu INCREASES each year, even though the flu shot is given in record numbers????
Not to mention, were you aware that vaccines are made from aborted babies, monkey cells, dogs, hamsters, cow brains, sheep, etc???  There are still trace amounts of DNA, RNA, animal proteins in each and every vaccine, as well as a host of toxins to isolate the virus.  I know its “trace amounts”, but don’t tell me its “healthy” or “safe”.  Now lets put this stuff in our MOST vulnerable population, infants and children WHOSE IMMUNE SYSTEM IS JUST DEVELOPING!!!!
Were you aware of the amount of money that these companies make off of vaccines? In the billions.
Have any of you read the book by Edward Hooper?  Probably not, or you wouldn’t think twice about immunizing your own children.

 

I am APPALLED at the level of ignorance promoted as education in this country! Where do people dream up this nonsense? I too have cared for infants and children who have died needlessly from a simple lack of an inexpensive vaccination. I work for a world renowned pediatric hospital. If your child had any chance of surviving these diseases, we are the ones who would be able to accomplish it. Yet, many times with all of our advanced technology—-we still fail. Yes, occasionally the vaccine fails to completely protect a child. But even in these cases, the disease is contracted in a much milder form, since their immune system has has some exposure. Very, very rarely is there a serious side effect of the vaccine itself. I have never cared (in my long career in a large hospital) for an infant or child in the ICU who has had a serious vaccine reaction, on the other hand, I have cared for many, many infants and children who have died, or nearly died, from these childhood diseases. We are seeing a lot less now of the Varicella and H.flu (which has a tragic outcome) admissions since the introduction of those vaccinations. I hope for your sake and that of your family, that the herd immunity of responsible parents will continue to protect you.
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Posted: 22 April 2008 07:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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weldesgin: Brennen and the other responders have been right on about vaccination. Not sure where you’re getting your misinformation, but the sources you are using are not reliable and in fact liable to endanger your health and that of your neighbors.

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Posted: 22 April 2008 08:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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The antibiotics I use have far (expected and unexpected)more side effects than the vaccines I administer——or are you going to refuse antibiotics now?
Something as simple as strep throat used to be a killer. If you did not die from the infection, there was a good chance you were left with cardiac, kidney or joint disease. My mother came down with strep throat during a time that antibiotics were not routinely available and was not expected to survive, she was luck to have survived without any of the residual damage. When I (and later my son) came down with the disease, it was just a minor inconvenience, easily treated.
 
I also hope that no one in your family comes down with a cancer that requires chemotherapy or radiation therapy. Most people I know will go through the treatment despite the possibility of very serious side effects, including death from the medication for a chance that they (or their child) will be cured. And I can go on and on and on…......
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Posted: 23 April 2008 06:21 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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I also hope that no one in your family comes down with a cancer that requires chemotherapy or radiation therapy. Most people I know will go through the treatment despite the possibility of very serious side effects, including death from the medication for a chance that they (or their child) will be cured. And I can go on and on and on…......

What does this have to do with immunizing????

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Posted: 23 April 2008 08:16 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
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Interesting how the Pro Vaccniners are immediately angry when someone is opposed to their conventional view of medicine.  Intolerance perhaps? 
Did you watch the short video?
Dangerous way of thinking? I did the research.  I used to be a strong advocate of vaccines!
Herd immunity - you can’t have it both ways.  The ones who promote vaccines say that the unvaccinated “benefit from everyone who is vaccinated but they don’t have to take the risks of the vaccine” So vaccines do have a risk then??
And of course, the unvaccinated spread the disease around.  However this is not possible, if vaccines were so effective then those common childhood disease would not be around anymore, if you consider the large majority of those who are immunized.
Explain this mystery to me - Why has Scarlet Fever dropped off?  There was never a vaccine for it??
Polio outbreaks amongst vaccninated individuals - http://www.909shot.com/Diseases/polio696.htm
You don’t need to read Edward Hoopers book.  Really?  You’ve “read the science”.  No actually you have read a few opinions from scientists who oppose his point of view and agree with them, instead of reading the book yourself and coming to your own conclusions.  Actuallly the evidence did not fall apart and out of the four lots tested, one was postitive, but not considered “to be enough evidence of risk” 
The fact that you immunized your own kids “without reservations” is not going to change my mind.  A child in my care is currently in PICU and not expected to survive DUE TO A VACCINE!
I know you claim these instances to be rare, but it is also rare to die from whooping cough for example.  Were you actually aware of the fact that of the 30, 000 REPORTED cases of whooping cough in Japan, the death rate was only 0.016%? (This was after the vaccine was eliminated)
I look at a disease like this:  A farmer sprays pesticides for bugs.  When he uses the same product over and over again, bugs will eventually become tolerant to the chemical and no longer die.  Its the same thing with common these common childhood diseases.  Have you thought of this in relation to Scarlet Fever?  It used to be very common as well.
Here’s another link for your perusal: http://www.ajc.com/opinion/content/opinion/stories/2008/04/11/polinged0411.html
and one on mumps: http://www.ajc.com/opinion/content/shared-gen/ap/Health_Medical/Mumps_Vaccine.html?cxntlid=inform_artr
By the way, I do educate myself that’ts why I no longer believe in immunizations!
The debate is for the “Scientific Community”  quite a statement, you actually believe that scientists don’t make mistakes?  I would never ever forgive myself, if my child died as a result of a vaccine, for the “benefit of others”

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Posted: 23 April 2008 08:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
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A danger to society.  Aren’t you immunized?  What are you worried about?  The vaccine is going to protect you isnt it?

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Posted: 23 April 2008 08:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
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Forgot to add this to the list http://www.whale.to/v/coulter.html  Its a study linking juvenile diabetes to vaccines

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