I appreciate the links you provided regarding FDA approval trials for vaccines. It is true they have to be proven effective to be approved for use. I would just point out that the only study you cite that involved a currently preventable childhood disease was the polio trial from 1953. The others generally involve adults or diseases for which there is not currently a safe and effective vaccine. I only point this out since my original comment about the ethics of a double-blinded, placebo-controlled vaccine study was in response to weldesgin’s ridiculous argument that vaccines could not be shown safe and effective without such a trial and so we should stop using them until one is done. Clearly, as of course I know you already understand, to do this at this point would be unethical because it would require the researchers to deliberately select, by randomization, some children to be denied protection of vaccines already estalished to be effective.
Right; we are in complete agreement. I simply wanted to give data that reinforced the point that vaccines, like any other drugs, have to be tested double-blind against a placebo control to be considered SAFE and EFFECTIVE.
Most of these children suffered from brain damage and some were autistic. I worked in the community, with kids in their homes and the schools as well as a respite centre. Your claim that “parents need someone to blame” is rather judgmental. When a concerned parent witnesses an adverse reaction to a vaccine , they are told that it is not from the vaccine, but “probably something else”, “perhaps a virus”, etc. The medical profession is so conditioned to believe that adverse events are rare or uncommon that nearly all reactions are dismissed as “coincidental”. Anyway, at first I did not believe that these were actual reactions to vaccines, as I thought that brain damage and such, was just a myth. However, the stories parents shared with me, definitely led me to believe that these kids suffered actual severe adverse reactions to the shots. Unfortunately, untill you see the “suffering” of these kids and the terrible burden they place on the family, it is hard to appreciate this point of view.
Most of these children suffered from brain damage and some were autistic. I worked in the community, with kids in their homes and the schools as well as a respite centre. Your claim that “parents need someone to blame” is rather judgmental. When a concerned parent witnesses an adverse reaction to a vaccine , they are told that it is not from the vaccine, but “probably something else”, “perhaps a virus”, etc. The medical profession is so conditioned to believe that adverse events are rare or uncommon that nearly all reactions are dismissed as “coincidental”. Anyway, at first I did not believe that these were actual reactions to vaccines, as I thought that brain damage and such, was just a myth. However, the stories parents shared with me, definitely led me to believe that these kids suffered actual severe adverse reactions to the shots. Unfortunately, untill you see the “suffering” of these kids and the terrible burden they place on the family, it is hard to appreciate this point of view.
Compassion for the difficulty that autistic parents go through is what makes me fight the type of ignorance you promote. If science and logic are abandoned the real cause of this terrible condition will never be discovered, and children will suffer needlessly. Money and time wasted following false leads could be better used looking for the real cause.
There is nothing you learned in working with these children that could provide proof that autism is caused by vaccines. Your compassion though admirable has caused you to lose objectivity. My comments about people in general looking for something or someone to blame is not judgemental. Its an accurate observation of human behavior and a driving force behind the rush to judgement about vaccines in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Fortunately logic has prevailed and the medical community has moved on from this subject. We all just have to hope that most of society is smart enough to turn a deaf ear to the misinformation that people such as yourself dispense.
The REAL cause for autism is genetic. Vaccinations did not cause my younger son’s autism- no matter how mild. The truth of the matter is that autism is genetic.
Malaria- The vaccine was compared to a rabies vaccine. Safety and efficacy of the Malaria vaccine was based on a comparison of those immunized with rabies.
“DNA/MVA heterologous (Malaria) prime-boost vaccination is safe and highly immunogenic for effector T cell induction in a malaria-endemic area. But despite having produced a substantial reduction in liver-stage parasites in challenge studies of non-immune volunteers, this first generation T cell–inducing vaccine was ineffective at reducing the natural infection rate in semi-immune African adults.”
Question – How can the Malaria vaccine be considered “safe” when it is compared to another vaccine? Obviously the rabies vaccine would not induce antibodies to Malaria, so what is the point of using a rabies shot? The method used to reach this conclusion could be accomplished by using an inert substance.
HIV- “Phase I, randomized, placebo-controlled, double-blind study evaluating immunogenicity and safety in 104 non-HIV infected volunteers in Kenya and Rowanda. Volunteers will receive either a low dose of an adenovector based vaccine, a high dose of the adenovector based vaccine or a DNA plasmid prime followed by a boost with the adenovector based vaccine, at either the high or low dose, six months later.”
There were a number of different studies listed under this link, this is just one of them.
Question – What is the placebo? Everybody will be immunized with the same vaccine, but with slight variations.
Pseudomonas – “For each patient, a package of four prefilled 1-mlsyringes, numbered with the randomization code, and containing either 40 mcg of flagella protein (20 mcg of flagella of subtypea0a1a2 from P. aeruginosa strain 1210 and 20 mcg of flagella of subtype b from P. aeruginosa strain 5142), 2 mg of aluminum hydroxide, and 0.1 mg of thimerosal or 2 mg of aluminum hydroxide and 0.1 mg of thimerosal only, was provided.”
Question – Instead of using an inert substance, thimerosal and aluminum was used. There are absolutely no “beneficial effects” to be obtained from this. Why not use sterile water or saline??? Using Mackenzie’s explanation: “Of course no placebo-controlled prospective study on vaccines is ever going to be done, since it would be unethical to deny vaccines to the placebo group when their benefits are clearly established.” So here I would have to agree with Mackenzie - thimerosal and aluminum do not have “clearly established benefits”.
By the way, this method of vaccine safety testing is also often used.
HIV infected infants – (Prevnar) All infants will be receiving the Prevnar vaccine, regardless of placebo. The placebo is not identified.
The following exclusion criteria for the study: A) Measles vaccine within 1 month prior to study vaccination B) Any other routine vaccine within 1 week prior to study vaccination C) Any immunosuppressant agent, including prednisone, for more than 6 weeks.
Question – In light of the exclusion criteria from the study, why is Prevnar recommended for all infants and children, regardless of when they were immunized last, what type of immunization they received last or whether they are chronically ill (ie chemo recipients)? Also, since all recipients in the study will be receiving the Prevnar vaccine, how can a conclusion be drawn that the vaccine is safe?
A JAMA article I found stated the following with respect to PCV shots - “A total of 4154 reports of events following PCV were submitted to VAERS, for a rate of 13.2 reports per 100 000 doses distributed. Multiple vaccines were given in 74.3% of reports. The most frequently reported symptoms and signs included fever, injection site reactions, fussiness, rashes, and urticaria. Serious events were described in 14.6% of reports. There were 117 deaths, 23 reports of positive rechallenges, and 34 cases of invasive pneumococcal infections possibly representing vaccine failure. Immune-mediated events occurred in 31.3% of reports. All 14 patients with anaphylactic reactions survived. Thrombocytopenia developed in 14 patients and serum sickness in 6 others. Neurologic symptoms occurred in 38% of reports. Seizures described in 393 reports included 94 febrile seizures...underreporting is common… and it is estimated that less then 10% of adverse events are reported.” (In other words, this means that the rate of death from the addition of this vaccine could be as high as 5850 infants and children - Vaccine manufacturers indicate that only an estimated 2% of adverse reactions are reported)
Colorectal CA, Influenza, Herpes Simplex – placebo not identified and only able to view abstract.
Macgyver and Mriana
You interpreted the information I posted in a biased manner. I did not say “all” kids were autistis, I said “some”. I personally do not believe that all cases of autism are caused by vaccination, however there are lots of studies proving that there is a causal relation. I spend a lot of time reading through all the studies you posted, and some are flawed. A big problem in the autism debate is the fact that the majority of studies disproving a link are done by either vaccine manufacturers or scientists who receive grants from said manufacturers to complete the study. For obvious reasons, no manufacturer will publish or fund a study demonstrating that their vaccine is linked to a serious neurologic condition. I don’t have a lot of time today, but I will reply to the studies you posted next week.
Macgyver and Mriana
You interpreted the information I posted in a biased manner. I did not say “all” kids were autistis, I said “some”. I personally do not believe that all cases of autism are caused by vaccination, however there are lots of studies proving that there is a causal relation. I spend a lot of time reading through all the studies you posted, and some are flawed. A big problem in the autism debate is the fact that the majority of studies disproving a link are done by either vaccine manufacturers or scientists who receive grants from said manufacturers to complete the study. For obvious reasons, no manufacturer will publish or fund a study demonstrating that their vaccine is linked to a serious neurologic condition. I don’t have a lot of time today, but I will reply to the studies you posted next week.
You make two bold statement here and do nothing to substantiate either one.
1) “there are lots of studies proving a causal relationship”. I have followed all of your posts and you have yet to come up with one study that showed such a link. As I said when I posted my list of studies, this was a completely random sampling of autism/vaccine studies. The first 10 or 15 that I had time to read all disproved any link. Even if you find a few that support your side of the argument ( and I am still waiting after 12 pages of this thread), the weight of the evidence clearly goes against your theory.
2) You claim that some of the studies I posted are flawed. How so? The fact is that all studies are flawed to some degree or another. That is why studies are repeated and redisigned to see if the results are reproducable. I have given you a long list of studies using different methods to attempt to look at this matter from different vantage points. They all show the same thing. There is NO link. Point out the problems you noticed with the studies and I will be glad to address them and address the effects those flaws might have on the results, but to say in one swift stroke that there are problems and then invalidate a group of very well done studies that just don’t happen to agree with your point of view is a statement that is self serviing and without merit.
One last thing. I did not interpret your argument as meaning all cases of autism were caused by autism. Even if SOME cases were caused by autism it should have shown up in the results of these studies. I reject the argument that there may be a subset of kids who are at risk and develop autism because of vaccines as a way of explaining away the result of all these studies. There is no statistical difference in the groups in any of these studies. Any “sensitive” subgroup would have to be so small as to be insiginificant. While such an exceedingly small group may be theoretically possible there is no evidence or reason to suspect one exists, except the irrational desire to hold on to a beloved, if groundless, theory.
My son is seven and healthy. He has received every vaccination my pediatrician recommended because I trust her judgment.
Without vaccinations my child, under state law, could not attend school, summer day camp, or even college. It wouldn’t be much of a life sitting home, alone and un-vaccinated.
On an interesting note, some people are taking anti-vaccine to the extreme, and they are even refusing to vaccinate their dogs for rabies because it’s “unhealthy and risky for the dog.” I’m sure all is well until a drunken raccoon stumbles into their yard.
My son is seven and healthy. He has received every vaccination my pediatrician recommended because I trust her judgment.
Without vaccinations my child, under state law, could not attend school, summer day camp, or even college. It wouldn’t be much of a life sitting home, alone and un-vaccinated.
On an interesting note, some people are taking anti-vaccine to the extreme, and they are even refusing to vaccinate their dogs for rabies because it’s “unhealthy and risky for the dog.” I’m sure all is well until a drunken raccoon stumbles into their yard.
I spent considerable time in the Philippines and knew people whose spouses or other loved ones died from rabies. That is scary.
Yes, rabies vaccines are mandatory for dogs. Not so much for cats though. Why I don’t know, except those who want a long life for their cat(s) don’t let them run about the neighbourhood. However, I highly recommend them for cats too, because I think even indoor cats can get rabies from a stray mouse that wanders into the house. If the mouse they kill has rabies, then they more than likely will too. I had one cat as a child that was infected with rabies, but it was an outdoor cat and it was during a brief time we lived in the country, not the city.
Rabies vaccination requirements for dogs are legislated at the state level, and I believe it is universally mandatory. Rabies vaccination is generally a requirement for a county license, which also usually mandatory, so it is indirectly required at the county level also. Rabies in dogs is exceedingly rare in most jurisdictions (79 cases nationwide in 2006 and none in 2007, leading the U.S. to be declared free of canine variant rabies, see 2008 Rabies Control Compendium and CDC Rabies Page).
Rabies incidence among domestic animals has declined markedly since mandatory vaccination began in the 1960s. Cats actually account for the largest number of cases among domestic animals (318 in 2006). Most animal cases are among skunks or racoons (depending on location) and bats/foxes/coyotes/cattle make up the rest. The majority of human exposures (and almost all human cases acquired domestically) are bat variant these days. Needless to say this is very different from the situation overseas, where dogs are still a primary source of the disease for humans (WHO Rabies Site). This is a classic demonstration of the arguments already made in this thread about the efficacy of vaccination and the public health consequences of incomplete vaccination efforts.
Apart from very uncommon, and generally not serious, allergic reactions, there is no evidence of significant health risks to dogs from rabies vaccination. Certainly, the number of dogs that died of rabies or were euthanised to be tested after biting someone before mandatory vaccination, was orders of magnitude greater than the miniscule number of serious adverse reactions. There has been, however, an upsurge in anxiety among pet owners about vaccination generally in the last 5-10 years. A big factor is the discovery that cats can develop a rare (1: 8,000-10,000 vaccinations) but very bad and usually fatal cancer (fibrosarcoma) secondary to rabies and feline leukemia vaccination. The incidence of this has dropped dramatically since vaccination practices were changed, and there is a new class of non-adjuvanted vaccines which are considerably less likely to induce the type of inflammatory reaction suspected to lead to development of the cancer, those these have not been in use for long enough to definatively demonstrate that they are safer in actually practice. Also, as our companion animals no longer die as often from preventable infectious diseases or trauma, and as people are willing to spend more money on extensive diagnostics and therapeutics, we are seeing more live long enough to develop cancer and we are identifying and treating more immune-mediated diseases. Naturally, the folks who are suspicious of scientific medicine, and not old enough to remember the days of rampant canine distemper, rabies, and other preventable diseases and sources of mortality, choose to ascribe the increase in diagnosis of such diseases as a sign that our enivronment is toxic, our commercial diets are poisonous, and our vaccines are causing rather than preventing illness. I suspect the M.D.s on the board have the same experiences with their pateints’ concerns about human health.
MacKenize, I realize this is a bit off topic, but i thought maybe I could pick your brain a bit. I was listening to a medical podcast the other day and they quoted a figure about bat variant rabies saying that while most people with this type of rabies had been bitten or at least had been in close proximity to a bat ( apparently their teeth are needle sharp and you can get a bite without it leaving a mark or any pain) something like 34% of people who contracted bat variant rabies had no history of exposure. I am assuming these people must have had an occult exposure of some sort, but I was wondering how the researchers knew it was “bat rabies”. I had always assumed that rabies was rabies - just one virus that was transmitted from one susceptible species to another interchangeably, but that article made it sound like there was seom way to tell bat rabies virus apart from a rabies virus obtained from another animal. Do you have any insight on that? How many rabies variants are there?
Two quick asides:
We had a raccoon on our property last year that exhibiting strange behavior ( daytime appearance, stumbling around). The local anumal control euthanized it and it tested positive for rabies, so you can bet our dog gets vaccinated every year.
I’ll bet most people on this board don’t realize it, but its actually harder to get into vet school than medical school. I was always hoping to be a vet, but when I got my first B+ I realized I wasn’t getting into vet school. I was still smart enough to take care of people though, so here I am. I have a daughter who is very interested in becoming a veterinarian though. I you have a minute to send me a PM I would love to hear your thoughts on being a vet. ie. Are you happy with your choice. Where do you see tings headed. Does the income earned justify the cost and sacrifice. Thanks
HERE is a link to some taxonomic information on rabies virus variants (probably far more than you wanted! ). Basically, the variants are differentiated by monoclonal Ab testing against various capsid glycoproteins and by sequence differences in its genome (RNA, as it’s a single-stranded RNA virus). These allow differentiation of variants which are typically associated with particular species as the source, and possiby by region as well. Hope that helps.
As for the last part of your post, I love being a vet, and I’ll send you a PM with my response.
One of the legal differences between cats and dogs, is that it is mandatory almost all over our country to license your dog, and in order to get a dog license, he must be vaccinated against rabies. Most cities so not have mandatory cat license requirements, or leash laws. Therefore, most cats do not get vaccinated against rabies (or any thing else) unless they are outside cats with well informed owners.
Well, just like my human children, my baby girls (cats) get their vaccinations. I personally believe in vaccinations for both humans and animals. My girls maybe 24/7 indoor cats, but this does not mean they can’t sneak out on us and end up running into feral (which we sadly have many around here) or a wild animal with rabies. Scarlette has gotten out once, regretted it, and was scared to death by something or someone (I’m guessing the ferals). I found her hiding in the corner of the cellar the next morning after missing her all night long, where ironically ferals like to hang out and her fur was all matted (she Persian) and had one minor wound, which the dr gave her an antibiotic for because she had a bit of a temp too. Unfortunately, the “beautician” (groomer) couldn’t do much with her hair except make her almost hairless. :( Her lion cut was close to a hairless breed with a short mane. :( How did I find her? I went out to called for her the next morning as I walked around our home looking for her and she cried out for me. I HATE that cellar, but she wasn’t getting out of her corner for nothing, except for me to carry her and boy did she jump out of my arms and into the house once I openned the door, never to try and set foot out again! The ferals run from me, so. Other than that, she was fine and still loves her mama (albeit human, but still).
Moral of the story? Vaccinate your pets, because IF the do get out without you, they will not get deathly sick, but only have minor problems- IF they avoid and/or survive humans, ferals, cars, overgrown mutant RATS (possums)… Without it, your pet might not be as lucky as my Scarlette was. Your pet could end up with rabies, even if they do survive it. With it, they could just get a minor treatable infection. Oh and if they are Persian or an alike group, hopefully it is summer if they do get out (flat to some what flatten faced cats are proned to respritory infections)- she got lucky with that one too and didn’t have bronchitis or any other respritory infection. If it had been winter, she might not have been so lucky. Her only breathing problem was her usual, asserbated by the event- according to the dr, but the antibiotic helped with that too, if he was wrong. So whatever frightened her and maybe gave her the slight injury, it was good she had her vaccinations or it could have been worse.
I must make note, I didn’t accidently let her out. One of my teenage sons wasn’t paying attention, like they should have been and that is how she snuck out unnoticed until I noticed after I got home that night that she was missing. It was too dark to look, esp here in the city, so I had to wait until morning.
). Basically, the variants are differentiated by monoclonal Ab testing against various capsid glycoproteins and by sequence differences in its genome (RNA, as it’s a single-stranded RNA virus). These allow differentiation of variants which are typically associated with particular species as the source, and possiby by region as well. Hope that helps.
