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vaccinations/immunization
Posted: 01 May 2008 12:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 76 ]
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weldesgin - 01 May 2008 11:36 AM

ASANTRA
Thank You for your dedication to your county.  It is because of people like you we enjoy the freedom we have!
I must say, that you had a lot of vaccines! Just curious about how you feel about being “the guinea pigs” of the country?  It seems unethical to me to test vaccines on the military, even though it is now routine. It really does not seem to be very respectful in my opinion.
Not sure if you know, but the small pox vaccine in particular had a very high rate of adverse effects.  So I guess you are fortunate not to have experienced any of them. 

Just a quick note on smallpox:

Many articles in both medical journals and the popular press have warned that the smallpox vaccine can have severe, even lethal, side effects. Considered to be “rare,” these serious complications are mostly dismissed. However, the Smallpox Consensus Statement published in a 1999 JAMA article reveals that “if 1 million persons were vaccinated, as many as 250 persons would experience adverse reactions that would require the administration of VIG [vaccinia immune globulin.]”

First of all, thank my father, I was just along for the ride.
Secondly, (I believe) reactions (other than allergic) typically occur with the first dose.
As for your other issue, We were living in areas (Africa) where the chance of acquiring smallpox (the disease) was present, with the accompanied mortality and morbidity associated, which is/was MUCH higher than that associated with the vaccine.

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Posted: 01 May 2008 05:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 77 ]
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smile

[ Edited: 30 April 2017 03:29 PM by Shoefly ]
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Posted: 01 May 2008 09:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 78 ]
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It’s no exactly clear what point you’re trying to make, or why you’ve switched from complaining about Hep B vaccination to pertussis. If you want to look at the risks of disease vs vaccination for pertussis, here are some facts (again from the CDC and FDA primarily, since I generally find these and NIH the most complete, and I expect impartial sources).

Disease:
Most serious in infants, though can have life-threatening consequences in older children also.
Pneumonia-5.2% of all cases, 11.8% of cases in children < 6 mos old
Seizures- 0.8% total cases, 3% in infants (from 5-minute Pediatric Consult)
Encephalopathy- 0.1% total cases, 0.9% in infants (from 5-minute Pediatric Consult)
Hospitalization-20% total cases
Death 0.2% total cases (85% of these deaths are among infants, and they have a death rate of 0.5-1% of cases; infants also make up 30% of the cases reported to CDC)
Antibiotics are used to treat secondary complications and reduce spread, but they are not curative, and in 2002 according to WHO there were 294,000 deaths worldwide, most in areas with low vaccination rates and poor quality supportive care. Thus, while supportive care and medications help reduce the death rate, they are less effective than vaccination. CUrrent subunit vaccines were 80-85% effective in preventing infection in clinical trials.

Vaccine: (CDC and 5 minute Pediatric Consult)
Anaphylaxis-2 cases/100,000 vaccinations (0.00002%)
Seizures- 1/1750 vaccinations (0.0006%)
hypotonic/hyporesponsive state- 1/1750 (0.0006%)
Crying for 3 hours 1:11 (1%)
Local soreness- 60%
Local redness/swelling-20%
Death- (source=FDA) No one really knows what, if any, mortality rate is attributable to the vaccine. What is often done by vaccine opponents, is to use numbers of deaths reported following vaccination as a death rate attributed to the vaccine. This, of course, is dishonest and misleading because the reports of death in vaccinated children say only that there was a temporal relationship between getting the vaccine and death. No evidence is provided that the vaccine was responsible for death, and we all know that correlation in time is not proof of a causal relationship.
SIDS is often mentioned as a possible vaccine-related death, but in two different trials (one in Italy, one in Germany) with over 22,000 children in each trial, the rate of SIDS was 0.3-0.5/1,000 infants (0.0003-0.0004%). The reported rate if SIDS in the US 1.2/1000 live births irrespective of vaccination status, so it is impossible to use these numbers to demonstrate SIDS as a cause of mortality from pertussis vaccine. Even if it were (which is unlikely given the numbers), the death rate of 0.0004% is a hell of a lot lower than the 0.2-1% for the disease itself)

Finally, the incidence of the disease has decreased 80% since widespread vaccination began, and while it has rebounded somewhat in the US in the last 20 years, liekly due to the increase in the number of unvaccinated adults from elsewhere in the world, it is still far lower than before vaccination. Note, that I am talking about the number of cases, not just the number of deaths, so your point about better antibiotics and supportive care is irrelevant to the issue of whether the vaccine prevents the disease (and I’ve already explained above why it is wrong in terms of arguing that the disaese is now treatable so vaccination is unnecessary).

So once again, I find your data incorrect and your conclusions not justified by it. You claim to be presenting a “balanced” analysis, and yet I find the information you give either wrong or presented in a misleading fashion. Nothing will convince you that vaccination does more good than harm. A well-designed study of sufficient size and power could convince me that any given vaccine does more harm than good, so you can keep looking for them and if you find one let me know. Certainly, medical science makes mistakes, times change, and vaccination protocols need to be constantly reviewed in light of accumulating evidence. But the evidence for the sweepinganti-vaccination case you’re trying to make just isn’t there.


CDC Source
FDA Source

[ Edited: 01 May 2008 09:12 PM by mckenzievmd ]
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Posted: 02 May 2008 06:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 79 ]
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A propos of this discussion: NYTimes article in today’s paper HERE

Measles in U.S. at Highest Level Since 2001

By DENISE GRADY
Published: May 2, 2008
Measles outbreaks in at least seven states are expected to produce more cases in 2008 than in any other recent year, federal health officials said Thursday, warning that measles is highly contagious and can cause severe illness and even death.

<snip>

As in New York, the other outbreaks are occurring because travelers bring the measles virus in from other countries — worldwide there are 20 million cases a year — and spread it to unvaccinated people. The unvaccinated include babies under a year old, who are too young to receive the vaccine, and children and young adults from families who refuse vaccination for personal or religious reasons.

<snip>

Before 1963, when the vaccine became available in this country, there were three million to four million cases of measles annually. The disease killed 400 to 500 children a year and put 48,000 in the hospital.

The vaccine wiped out transmission here by 2000, but the disease can easily be imported because there are so many cases overseas. Worldwide, measles still kills 242,000 children a year.

A report on the outbreaks is online at cdc.gov.

Those who refuse to vaccinate are part of the problem. They enable transmission of the disease and take up money and resources when they get ill.

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Posted: 02 May 2008 06:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 80 ]
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dougsmith - 02 May 2008 06:35 AM

A propos of this discussion: NYTimes article in today’s paper HERE
Those who refuse to vaccinate are part of the problem. They enable transmission of the disease and take up money and resources when they get ill.

Yes, yes, yes! Vaccinations are the single greatest contribution the medical community has given us.

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Posted: 02 May 2008 10:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 81 ]
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traveler - 02 May 2008 06:51 AM

Yes, yes, yes! Vaccinations are the single greatest contribution the medical community has given us.

Single? Sure? What about hygiene? Sterilisation and such stuff?
For the rest I agree.

GdB

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Posted: 02 May 2008 10:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 82 ]
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Yes, I’m sure. LOL
Arguable perhaps, but I’ve seen some pretty old dirty people. Sterilization allows surgery to work, but in sheer numbers of people saved - I’ll stick with vaccinations.

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Posted: 02 May 2008 11:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 83 ]
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Well, I think that GdB is right about hygiene, at least about public hygene efforts. The biggest advances in average lifespan came in the 19th and early 20th centuries with the introduction of plumbing, trash collection, clean water, etc. These dramatically reduced bacterial illness. Vaccinations might be more correctly attributed to “the medical community” than general issues of public hygene, I suppose. But that’s more an issue of semantics.

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Posted: 02 May 2008 11:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 84 ]
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No, I don’t see plumbing and trash collection as contributions from the medical community, so I’ll stand by my statement. But that’s just me.

Not knocking hygiene, however. It’s good stuff.

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Posted: 02 May 2008 11:42 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 85 ]
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Hmm, that’s a tricky one, Traveler. What about John Snow for example? He was a physician (therefore a member of the medical community) who helped a great deal to improve the hygiene.

P.S. I was trying to provide a link for John Snow to Wiki, but I can’t do it. Not sure what the problem is.

[ Edited: 02 May 2008 11:50 AM by George ]
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Posted: 02 May 2008 11:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 86 ]
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I had promised myself I would refrain from commenting on this topic again since logical arguments were making no headway with the primary vaccine opponents on this thread. I have chosen to make an exception to share with you a bit of historical perspective I received today from one of my patients. I was finishing a physical on an 80yr old patient of mine who happens to be a retired pediatrician. I decided to ask this gentleman about his experience with Polio since he had been in training for pediatrics at a time when there was no vaccine available. I was always aware that hospitals back then had entire wards devoted to polio patients, but was unaware until my discussion with this doctor that here in NY there were entire HOSPITALS devoted to polio victims. This doctor worked in one during the year that the polio vaccine first became available. Prior to this vaccine’s introduction every ward in the hospital was filled with polio patients, many in iron lungs. After the vaccine became available the effect was dramatic. Just one year after the polio vaccine became available the 200 bed polio hospital he worked in was no longer needed and was able to be closed.

I mentioned this minor vaccine controversy to him knowing what his response would be and he just hung his head in disgust.

A little history can really put a subject in perspective. You can quote all the facts and figures you want from questionable sources, but this fellow was actually there.

[ Edited: 02 May 2008 12:44 PM by macgyver ]
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Posted: 02 May 2008 12:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 87 ]
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George,
I have no problem conceding that the medical community was the primary source of information for the discovery of disease vectors. One could also argue that, without hygiene there indeed would be no vaccine - so vaccinations might have to be included in the count for lives saved due to hygiene. If someone wants to say hygiene is #1 and vaccines are #2, or vice versa I really don’t care. But vaccines are waaaaayyyyy up there and for anyone to say they are “bad” is simply ridiculous.

Anyone with basic knowlege of vaccines should just hang their head in disgust when hearing of this thread - like macgyver’s intelligent friend.

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Posted: 02 May 2008 01:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 88 ]
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macgyver - 02 May 2008 11:55 AM

A little history can really put a subject in perspective. You can quote all the facts and figures you want from questionable sources, but this fellow was actually there.

I attended school(s) with children who wore braces or used wheelchairs because of the residual effects of polio oh oh . I’m sure there are other contributors here who have seen the same.

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Posted: 02 May 2008 01:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 89 ]
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smile

[ Edited: 30 April 2017 03:30 PM by Shoefly ]
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Posted: 03 May 2008 07:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 90 ]
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smile

[ Edited: 30 April 2017 03:30 PM by Shoefly ]
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