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vaccinations/immunization
Posted: 01 May 2008 12:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 76 ]
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weldesgin - 01 May 2008 11:36 AM

ASANTRA
Thank You for your dedication to your county.  It is because of people like you we enjoy the freedom we have!
I must say, that you had a lot of vaccines! Just curious about how you feel about being “the guinea pigs” of the country?  It seems unethical to me to test vaccines on the military, even though it is now routine. It really does not seem to be very respectful in my opinion.
Not sure if you know, but the small pox vaccine in particular had a very high rate of adverse effects.  So I guess you are fortunate not to have experienced any of them. 

Just a quick note on smallpox:

Many articles in both medical journals and the popular press have warned that the smallpox vaccine can have severe, even lethal, side effects. Considered to be “rare,” these serious complications are mostly dismissed. However, the Smallpox Consensus Statement published in a 1999 JAMA article reveals that “if 1 million persons were vaccinated, as many as 250 persons would experience adverse reactions that would require the administration of VIG [vaccinia immune globulin.]”

First of all, thank my father, I was just along for the ride.
Secondly, (I believe) reactions (other than allergic) typically occur with the first dose.
As for your other issue, We were living in areas (Africa) where the chance of acquiring smallpox (the disease) was present, with the accompanied mortality and morbidity associated, which is/was MUCH higher than that associated with the vaccine.

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Posted: 01 May 2008 05:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 77 ]
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Mackenzie
In response to your “cherry pciking” argument. You are the pot who is calling the kettle black! 
To prove my point I researched what you consider “gospel”
I chose the Minnesota Health Department as Mr Offit is highly influential and I would expect to find a very BALANCED view:
Information is based on the following website http://www.health.state.mn.us/divs/idepc/diseases/pertussis/pfacts.html  This is information for the public, or parents making a decision to vaccinate their child.

We are given the following information on Pertussis
1) Symptoms
2) Complications.  “the most common complication of pertussis is bacterial pneumonia. RARE complications include seizures, inflammation of the brain, and death

Now lets look at what it tells us about the vaccine.
1) There is a vaccine
2) The recommended schedule of shots are provided
3) No info is provided on side effects common to vaccines

Upon checking the website for professionals: http://www.health.state.mn.us/divs/idepc/diseases/pertussis/hcp/pfactshcp.html
Gives pretty much the same info, with no mention made of potential side effects of the vaccine
One would think that vaccines have absolutely no side effects and can be given out like candies. 

Further investigation brings you to the vaccine safety website: http://www.chop.edu/consumer/jsp/division/generic.jsp?id=75701#pertussis
Direct quote: “Pertussis is still very common in the United States. In 2002, 8,296 cases of pertussis were reported to the CDC. However, this number is a vast underestimate of the actual number of cases that occur every year. It is estimated that between 600,000 to 900,000 cases occur in adolescents and adults every year, and about 10 people die from pertussis. Most of the deaths from pertussis occur in young infants. Because the pertussis vaccine DOES NOT cause death, the benefits of the pertussis vaccine clearly outweigh its risks”

So lets compare the facts on those “rare” complications which you state are common and therefore the reason to vaccinate:

estimated 600000 -90000 cases with 10 deaths - the risk of death is 0.0017%- 0.0011%  The majority of deaths are in infants, before they have received 3 doses of the vaccine.  (Most are infected by adults with WANING IMMUNITY DUE TO IMMUNIZATION AS INFANTS)

“Even without factoring in any under-reporting to VAERS, the number of infants reported to have died by the day following DTaP vaccination in 1998 is still more than the number who died as a result of whooping cough in the year 2000.” Researcher, Sandy Mintz noted a total of 57 deaths following DTaP vaccinations were reported to VAERS for 1998. In most of these cases, other vaccines had been given concurrently. Factoring in under-reporting, the true total was more likely to have been 570 or more” from: http://www.vran.org/vaccines/dpt/pentacel-dpt.htm

I can’t find much in the way of brain inflammation or seizures without running into a host of articles contributing this to the actual vaccine.

The survival rate for pertussis is 99.9983% There is always a risk of pertussis, regardless of being immunized. There is tons of evidence that immunity to pertussis obtained from a vaccine wears off by the child is 10 years old.

You can’t say that the death rate today would be the same as in 1930’s: antibiotics were not invented, handwashing was not considered important and there have been numerous advances in health care since that time.

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Posted: 01 May 2008 09:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 78 ]
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It’s no exactly clear what point you’re trying to make, or why you’ve switched from complaining about Hep B vaccination to pertussis. If you want to look at the risks of disease vs vaccination for pertussis, here are some facts (again from the CDC and FDA primarily, since I generally find these and NIH the most complete, and I expect impartial sources).

Disease:
Most serious in infants, though can have life-threatening consequences in older children also.
Pneumonia-5.2% of all cases, 11.8% of cases in children < 6 mos old
Seizures- 0.8% total cases, 3% in infants (from 5-minute Pediatric Consult)
Encephalopathy- 0.1% total cases, 0.9% in infants (from 5-minute Pediatric Consult)
Hospitalization-20% total cases
Death 0.2% total cases (85% of these deaths are among infants, and they have a death rate of 0.5-1% of cases; infants also make up 30% of the cases reported to CDC)
Antibiotics are used to treat secondary complications and reduce spread, but they are not curative, and in 2002 according to WHO there were 294,000 deaths worldwide, most in areas with low vaccination rates and poor quality supportive care. Thus, while supportive care and medications help reduce the death rate, they are less effective than vaccination. CUrrent subunit vaccines were 80-85% effective in preventing infection in clinical trials.

Vaccine: (CDC and 5 minute Pediatric Consult)
Anaphylaxis-2 cases/100,000 vaccinations (0.00002%)
Seizures- 1/1750 vaccinations (0.0006%)
hypotonic/hyporesponsive state- 1/1750 (0.0006%)
Crying for 3 hours 1:11 (1%)
Local soreness- 60%
Local redness/swelling-20%
Death- (source=FDA) No one really knows what, if any, mortality rate is attributable to the vaccine. What is often done by vaccine opponents, is to use numbers of deaths reported following vaccination as a death rate attributed to the vaccine. This, of course, is dishonest and misleading because the reports of death in vaccinated children say only that there was a temporal relationship between getting the vaccine and death. No evidence is provided that the vaccine was responsible for death, and we all know that correlation in time is not proof of a causal relationship.
SIDS is often mentioned as a possible vaccine-related death, but in two different trials (one in Italy, one in Germany) with over 22,000 children in each trial, the rate of SIDS was 0.3-0.5/1,000 infants (0.0003-0.0004%). The reported rate if SIDS in the US 1.2/1000 live births irrespective of vaccination status, so it is impossible to use these numbers to demonstrate SIDS as a cause of mortality from pertussis vaccine. Even if it were (which is unlikely given the numbers), the death rate of 0.0004% is a hell of a lot lower than the 0.2-1% for the disease itself)

Finally, the incidence of the disease has decreased 80% since widespread vaccination began, and while it has rebounded somewhat in the US in the last 20 years, liekly due to the increase in the number of unvaccinated adults from elsewhere in the world, it is still far lower than before vaccination. Note, that I am talking about the number of cases, not just the number of deaths, so your point about better antibiotics and supportive care is irrelevant to the issue of whether the vaccine prevents the disease (and I’ve already explained above why it is wrong in terms of arguing that the disaese is now treatable so vaccination is unnecessary).

So once again, I find your data incorrect and your conclusions not justified by it. You claim to be presenting a “balanced” analysis, and yet I find the information you give either wrong or presented in a misleading fashion. Nothing will convince you that vaccination does more good than harm. A well-designed study of sufficient size and power could convince me that any given vaccine does more harm than good, so you can keep looking for them and if you find one let me know. Certainly, medical science makes mistakes, times change, and vaccination protocols need to be constantly reviewed in light of accumulating evidence. But the evidence for the sweepinganti-vaccination case you’re trying to make just isn’t there.


CDC Source
FDA Source

[ Edited: 01 May 2008 09:12 PM by mckenzievmd ]
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Posted: 02 May 2008 06:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 79 ]
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A propos of this discussion: NYTimes article in today’s paper HERE

Measles in U.S. at Highest Level Since 2001

By DENISE GRADY
Published: May 2, 2008
Measles outbreaks in at least seven states are expected to produce more cases in 2008 than in any other recent year, federal health officials said Thursday, warning that measles is highly contagious and can cause severe illness and even death.

<snip>

As in New York, the other outbreaks are occurring because travelers bring the measles virus in from other countries — worldwide there are 20 million cases a year — and spread it to unvaccinated people. The unvaccinated include babies under a year old, who are too young to receive the vaccine, and children and young adults from families who refuse vaccination for personal or religious reasons.

<snip>

Before 1963, when the vaccine became available in this country, there were three million to four million cases of measles annually. The disease killed 400 to 500 children a year and put 48,000 in the hospital.

The vaccine wiped out transmission here by 2000, but the disease can easily be imported because there are so many cases overseas. Worldwide, measles still kills 242,000 children a year.

A report on the outbreaks is online at cdc.gov.

Those who refuse to vaccinate are part of the problem. They enable transmission of the disease and take up money and resources when they get ill.

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Posted: 02 May 2008 06:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 80 ]
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dougsmith - 02 May 2008 06:35 AM

A propos of this discussion: NYTimes article in today’s paper HERE
Those who refuse to vaccinate are part of the problem. They enable transmission of the disease and take up money and resources when they get ill.

Yes, yes, yes! Vaccinations are the single greatest contribution the medical community has given us.

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Posted: 02 May 2008 10:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 81 ]
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traveler - 02 May 2008 06:51 AM

Yes, yes, yes! Vaccinations are the single greatest contribution the medical community has given us.

Single? Sure? What about hygiene? Sterilisation and such stuff?
For the rest I agree.

GdB

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Posted: 02 May 2008 10:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 82 ]
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Yes, I’m sure. LOL
Arguable perhaps, but I’ve seen some pretty old dirty people. Sterilization allows surgery to work, but in sheer numbers of people saved - I’ll stick with vaccinations.

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Posted: 02 May 2008 11:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 83 ]
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Well, I think that GdB is right about hygiene, at least about public hygene efforts. The biggest advances in average lifespan came in the 19th and early 20th centuries with the introduction of plumbing, trash collection, clean water, etc. These dramatically reduced bacterial illness. Vaccinations might be more correctly attributed to “the medical community” than general issues of public hygene, I suppose. But that’s more an issue of semantics.

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Posted: 02 May 2008 11:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 84 ]
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No, I don’t see plumbing and trash collection as contributions from the medical community, so I’ll stand by my statement. But that’s just me.

Not knocking hygiene, however. It’s good stuff.

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Posted: 02 May 2008 11:42 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 85 ]
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Hmm, that’s a tricky one, Traveler. What about John Snow for example? He was a physician (therefore a member of the medical community) who helped a great deal to improve the hygiene.

P.S. I was trying to provide a link for John Snow to Wiki, but I can’t do it. Not sure what the problem is.

[ Edited: 02 May 2008 11:50 AM by George ]
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Posted: 02 May 2008 11:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 86 ]
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I had promised myself I would refrain from commenting on this topic again since logical arguments were making no headway with the primary vaccine opponents on this thread. I have chosen to make an exception to share with you a bit of historical perspective I received today from one of my patients. I was finishing a physical on an 80yr old patient of mine who happens to be a retired pediatrician. I decided to ask this gentleman about his experience with Polio since he had been in training for pediatrics at a time when there was no vaccine available. I was always aware that hospitals back then had entire wards devoted to polio patients, but was unaware until my discussion with this doctor that here in NY there were entire HOSPITALS devoted to polio victims. This doctor worked in one during the year that the polio vaccine first became available. Prior to this vaccine’s introduction every ward in the hospital was filled with polio patients, many in iron lungs. After the vaccine became available the effect was dramatic. Just one year after the polio vaccine became available the 200 bed polio hospital he worked in was no longer needed and was able to be closed.

I mentioned this minor vaccine controversy to him knowing what his response would be and he just hung his head in disgust.

A little history can really put a subject in perspective. You can quote all the facts and figures you want from questionable sources, but this fellow was actually there.

[ Edited: 02 May 2008 12:44 PM by macgyver ]
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Posted: 02 May 2008 12:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 87 ]
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George,
I have no problem conceding that the medical community was the primary source of information for the discovery of disease vectors. One could also argue that, without hygiene there indeed would be no vaccine - so vaccinations might have to be included in the count for lives saved due to hygiene. If someone wants to say hygiene is #1 and vaccines are #2, or vice versa I really don’t care. But vaccines are waaaaayyyyy up there and for anyone to say they are “bad” is simply ridiculous.

Anyone with basic knowlege of vaccines should just hang their head in disgust when hearing of this thread - like macgyver’s intelligent friend.

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Posted: 02 May 2008 01:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 88 ]
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macgyver - 02 May 2008 11:55 AM

A little history can really put a subject in perspective. You can quote all the facts and figures you want from questionable sources, but this fellow was actually there.

I attended school(s) with children who wore braces or used wheelchairs because of the residual effects of polio oh oh . I’m sure there are other contributors here who have seen the same.

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Posted: 02 May 2008 01:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 89 ]
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Mackenzie
The point I was trying to make was that the information that is presented to the public is one sided.  As per the web address I provided, the Minnesota Department of health has all the potential adverse effects of the disease listed, but NOTHING ON THE POTENTIAL ADVERSE EVENTS ASSOCIATED WITH A VACCINE.  If you want the information on vaccines you need to search for it.  This is the same way you rationalize.  You state that I only discuss the “side effects of the vaccine, not the benefits.” Often the only thing parents are told that “fever and soreness at the site can be expected” and that is where it ends.  There are lots more side effects that are never discussed.  However, the medical profession goes to great lengths to tell us about every potential complication of the disease in order to scare us to vaccinate.  For example the latest one I read was in relation to necrotizing fascitis and chickenpox.  So now we are told to vaccinate for chickenpox, because these severe reactions can be prevented.  Fear is a great motivator, and keeps the vaccine manufacturers in business.
I’m not sure where those statistics came from that you gave me, but something does not add up here.  According to the CDC at   http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5450a3.htm
The estimated incidence of whooping cough is 570 per 100,000 population (in the age range of 10-49 years)  Actual reported cases are only a fraction of the actual incidence of pertussis. 
Upon checking US census data at   http://www.census.gov/prod/2002pubs/c2kprof00-us.pdf I found the number of people in this age group.
The number of 10-54 year olds in 2000 was 182,730,266 ( I was unable to calculate the exact number of people in the age group of 10-49 as this was not provided, so the total reflects 10-54 year age group)
The estimated incidence of pertussis among this age group is 570 per 100,000.  (This was the rate for 1995-1996 and the incidence has increased since that time)  This gives an incidence rate of 0.57%.  Based on the estimated cases the total number of cases would be 1,041,562.

Applying your statistics we should be seeing:
Pneumonia 5.2% or 52,078 cases
Seizures 0.8% or 8,332 cases
Encephalopathy 0.1% or 1,041 cases
Hospitalization 20% or 208,312 cases
Death 0.2% or 2,083 cases

Your adverse reaction percentages make no sense at all.  The reported incidence of death for pertussis is only 19 per year, a far cry from 2083 cases according to your statistics of adverse events associated with pertussis.  It is reasonable to assume that if a 20 year old died of pertussis that this would be reported, particularly by our “pro vaccine” medical professionals.

The mortality rate from pertussis using CDC figures from the above report would be less then 0.00182% - 19 deaths versus an estimated 1,041,562 cases. (estimated numbers are only based on 10-49 year olds, so there are probably more cases as there are other age groups in the country)

*******91% of deaths occur in infants less then 6 months of age*******

According to the same US census report there were 19,175,798 children under 5 years of age in the US in 2000.  For purposes of calculating approximate adverse reactions lets assume 25% have received all doses of DTP.  That means that 4,793,949 children are fully vaccinated.  Each child received 5 doses or 23,969,745 total doses.

Considering your vaccination Statistics:
Anaphylaxis - 2 cases per 100,000 doses (0.002%) or 479 cases
Seizures – 0.057% or 13,662 cases
Hypotonic / hyporesponsive state – 0.057% or 13,622 cases
Crying for 3 hours – 9% or 2,157,277 cases
Local soreness – 60% or 14,381,848 cases
Local redness / swelling – 4,793,949 cases
Death - No rate provided, however you state that “perhaps the death rate is 0.0004%” (don’t know how accurate this is, considering all your other calculations were incorrect) this would still be 95 cases. A lot more then the 19 deaths associated with pertussis reported by CDC.
These statistics do not include brain damage or other side effects associated with vaccines.  On a previous post we were informed that VAERS reports the incidence of an adverse reaction at 11.2 per 100,000 doses or 0.0112%, for EACH dose.  When you look at 5 doses the risk for an adverse event is 0.056%.  Considering that only 2% - 10% are ever reported, the possibility of adverse reactions are closer to 0.56% - 2.8%, just for pertussis.  Using the numbers discussed 23,969,745 doses would be equivalent to 134,530 to 671,152 adverse reactions. 
“The results of all infant vaccine-associated deaths which occurred in 1998 and were reported to VAERS as of the end of the year 2000…
There were 57 DTaP-vaccine associated infant deaths.  (Unfortunately, it is not possible to know whether it was DTaP vaccine alone which might have been responsible, since every single infant who died after receiving DTaP, except one, had received 2 or more vaccines.)
Former FDA commissioner David Kessler has said that it is thought 1% of serious drug reactions are reported to the FDA.  A vaccine manufacturer testified that in their experience, a passive system (which is what VAERS is) results in around 2%.  Consequently it may well be that only 1-2% of serious adverse vaccine associated reactions are reported to VAERS.  The more conservative figure of 10% is widely regarded to be the minimum percent reported to VAERS.”
http://www.vaccinationnews.com/scandals/July_26_02/Scandal26.htm

I don’t understand your rationale in regards to vaccines. “Correlation is not proof of causal relationship”
Your rationale is: high incidence of pertussis – vaccination – low incidence of pertussis
Yet you do not believe that there are high incidences of adverse reactions. For example:
Low autism rates-vaccination-high autism rates (the incidence is now 1 in 166 kids)
Low SIDS rates-vaccination-high SIDS rates
Your thinking is a one way street and you only believe reports that disprove any correlation, which conforms to your line of thinking. Anyone who opposes your view is considered a “quack”.  Anyone who discusses potential side effects is “misinformed”
There are thousands of adverse reactions reported each and every year to VAERS, however nothing is done about it.  As a quick comparison lets look at Tylenol, which was recalled in 1982 because 7 people died. http://www.ou.edu/deptcomm/dodjcc/groups/02C2/Johnson & Johnson.htm
There are numerous reports of death associated with vaccines and there are no recalls, just more vaccines added (except the rotavirus vaccine)

I have never stated that the disease is treatable with antibiotics, however, when antibiotics are given early on in the disease, adverse events are much less.
And, finally, I do think that if we stopped immunizing for pertussis altogether there would be an increase in the incidence of pertussis.  However I believe it is wrong to expect parents to “sacrifice” their child to these vaccine “expirements”.  You can argue that this is not the case, however, the FDA admits that a vaccine is tested on the population during the final phase.  If they no longer appear effective then another dose is added, or the name of the disease is “redefined” to give the appearance the disease is decreasing.  Why?

Regarding Hepatitis B - http://www.whale.to/vaccines/belkin.html

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Posted: 03 May 2008 07:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 90 ]
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I thought you might be interested in this report done by a board certified neurosurgeon.
http://www.medicalveritas.com/manBlaylock.pdf

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