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God and Soul in Quantum Theory.  / By Socratus. /
Posted: 31 March 2015 01:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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dougsmith - 30 March 2015 01:57 PM
socratus - 30 March 2015 10:39 AM

Fools deride Me when I descend in the human form.
They do not know My transcendental nature
and My supreme dominion over all that be.
  /  Bhagavad Gita,  chapter 9, text 11 /
===. . .

socratus, this is a forum for discussion and debate, not airy assertions of transcendency.
If you do not wish to engage in reasoned debate you should go elsewhere, and continued replies
to reasoned questions with this kind of nonsense is against the rules and
may lead to banning.

@ dougsmith / Administrator
Don’t take this Bhagavad Gita’s proverb personally
===..

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The secret of God, Soul and Existence is hidden
in ‘ Vacuum and Quantum of Light Theories ’.

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Posted: 31 March 2015 09:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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Write4U - 30 March 2015 04:05 PM

Soctratus,
Fools deride Me when I descend in the human form.
They do not know My transcendental nature
and My supreme dominion over all that be.
  /  Bhagavad Gita,  chapter 9, text 11 /
===. . .

Fools deride anything they don’t understand.
Fortunately there are few fools on this forum and they understand the meaning of that verse.
I, for one do understand the metasphysical and allegorical MORAL nature of all scripture.
But if taken literally, assigning a motivated intelligence to the fundamental function
of spacetime is an argument from ignorance. Especially if man is considered to be special “in the eyes”
of potential expression of these natural laws. A little too convenient, IMO.
In fact, most deist scripture speaks of an Implaccable condition, without asserting a sentient intelligence.
At best it can be said that the Universe functions in a psuedo intelligent mathematical way.

By standards of critical thinking, it means nothing more than that the Universe functions
in accordance with immutable Laws of Nature.
But these natural laws are not sentient in and of themselves.
and it is not necessary that a motivated intelligence was causal to these laws.

Accepting the premise that Universal Potential is the mathematical probability
that an event will occur, is sufficient for this Universe to exist.

There were people who said ‘God ‘ and thought about ‘Zeus.’
There are people who say ‘God ‘ and think about ‘Holly Cow.’
There are people who think what God is an old man with long white beard.

But scientist Sir Arthur Stanley Eddington wrote:
” The Reasons of a modern science give, maybe
the opportunity to make the conclusion
that the religion became acceptable
for sensible scientific mind, since 1927.”

It means what there is some way to explain
the essence (!) of Religion using Physics.
==..

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Posted: 31 March 2015 02:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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Spcratus,
It means what there is some way to explain the essence (!) of Religion using Physics.  ==..

I disagree. Cite me one physical attribute of a (any) god that can be analysed and quantified.  Gods were invented even before man came along and the proof can be seen today in the behavior of Chimpanzees. They also have “unseen” adversaries who make it rain and thunder.

Religion can be explained from a psychological viewpoint, but in the absence of physical properties the physical sciences are useless. And if Physics ever find the prime causality, I am willing to place a bet that this causality is NOT sentient in and of itself. Quantum functions mindlessly, as can be proven repeatedly.

Quantum,
In physics, a quantum (plural: quanta) is the minimum amount of any physical entity involved in an interaction. Behind this, one finds the fundamental notion that a physical property may be “quantized,” referred to as “the hypothesis of quantization”.
[1] This means that the magnitude can take on only certain discrete values.

A photon is a single quantum of light, and is referred to as a “light quantum”. The energy of an electron bound to an atom is quantized, which results in the stability of atoms, and hence of matter in general.

As incorporated into the theory of quantum mechanics, this is regarded by physicists as part of the fundamental framework for understanding and describing nature at the smallest length-scales. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum

Where is the need for sentience in Quantum? And if a sentient god is not required for action at micro scale, then it logically follows that a sentient god is not required for physical action in the macro world.  You cannot have it both ways.

p.s. I agree with your signature line, but rather than explaining the existence of a god, it will disprove the existence of any motivated god, IMO.

[ Edited: 31 March 2015 02:45 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 01 April 2015 08:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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Write4U - 31 March 2015 02:33 PM

p.s.
I agree with your signature line,
but rather than explaining the existence of a god,
it will disprove the existence of any motivated god, IMO.

Nobody knows what vacuum is.
Nobody knows what quanta light are.
Therefore every speculation is possible.
===...

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The secret of God, Soul and Existence is hidden
in ‘ Vacuum and Quantum of Light Theories ’.

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Posted: 01 April 2015 09:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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socratus - 01 April 2015 08:50 AM

Nobody knows what vacuum is.
Nobody knows what quanta light are.
Therefore every speculation is possible.
===...

I stumbled on something similar the other day while I was writing. I wrote the sentence, “If nothing is impossible, then anything is possible”. Depending on how you take that, you are a scientifically minded skeptic, or a woo-master.

I woo terms, it means we can possibly soul travel to other planets. Since I can’t disprove it, maybe if you just believe it hard enough, it will happen. Maybe you’ve already done it and can’t see what you experienced, so maybe…

Or, it’s only true that we can’t know things with 100% certainty. So the word “impossible” can’t have an absolute meaning. Technically it is equivalent to “extremely improbable”, but then you get into the math of probability, and people don’t want to do that. So, we have this word that people take to mean things it doesn’t.

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Posted: 01 April 2015 02:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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socratus - 01 April 2015 08:50 AM
Write4U - 31 March 2015 02:33 PM

p.s.
I agree with your signature line,
but rather than explaining the existence of a god,
it will disprove the existence of any motivated god, IMO.

Nobody knows what vacuum is.
Nobody knows what quanta light are.
Therefore every speculation is possible.
===...

Yes, and that makes Theism pure speculation, just as in science.

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Posted: 01 April 2015 03:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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Lausten - 01 April 2015 09:47 AM
socratus - 01 April 2015 08:50 AM

Nobody knows what vacuum is.
Nobody knows what quanta light are.
Therefore every speculation is possible.
===...

I stumbled on something similar the other day while I was writing. I wrote the sentence, “If nothing is impossible, then anything is possible”. Depending on how you take that, you are a scientifically minded skeptic, or a woo-master.

I woo terms, it means we can possibly soul travel to other planets. Since I can’t disprove it, maybe if you just believe it hard enough, it will happen. Maybe you’ve already done it and can’t see what you experienced, so maybe…

Or, it’s only true that we can’t know things with 100% certainty. So the word “impossible” can’t have an absolute meaning. Technically it is equivalent to “extremely improbable”, but then you get into the math of probability, and people don’t want to do that. So, we have this word that people take to mean things it doesn’t.

This is why I personally see the cradle of existence as a “permissive state or condition”, which mathematically allows for certain actions, and mathematically forbids other actions. If a god existed, it would have to obey the mathematical laws and functions of nature itself. If we are so arrogant as to speculate of what came before THAT, then we enter an infinite loop of begging the question.

Therefore, sentience is not required, just a latent ability (potential) for energy to develop. The BB is an expression of latent ability of the “pre-universe”.
But the BB was a chaotic event, with almost infinite potential for almost infinite expression as long as it obeys the mathematical conctants as we KNOW them.

And we come full circle to the word Potential as the logical, but non-intelligent, pre-condition to reality.

IMO, the noun “Potential” is the most fundamental pre-condition for existence itself and is a common denominator in all things, material or immaterial.. We use the word potential in our daily lives almost as much as we use the word god, with one major difference, potential is a scientific fact.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/potential

The single difference between the the concept of “god” and “potential” is that the creative function of potential is not an expression of the sentient and intentional “will of god”, but an inevitable expression of inherent ability and probability of becoming expressed in reality (see Bohm’s Implicate).

The quantum potential postulated in the causal interpretation corresponds to the implicate order. But Bohm suggests that the quantum potential is itself organized and guided by a superquantum potential, representing a second implicate order, or superimplicate order. Indeed he proposes that there may be an infinite series, and perhaps hierarchies, of implicate (or “generative”) orders, some of which form relatively closed loops and some of which do not. Higher implicate orders organize the lower ones, which in turn influence the higher. http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/science/prat-boh.htm

[ Edited: 01 April 2015 03:42 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 02 April 2015 01:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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Lausten - 01 April 2015 09:47 AM
socratus - 01 April 2015 08:50 AM

Nobody knows what vacuum is.
Nobody knows what quanta light are.
Therefore every speculation is possible.
===...

I stumbled on something similar the other day while I was writing.
I wrote the sentence, “If nothing is impossible, then anything is possible”.
Depending on how you take that, you are a scientifically minded skeptic, or a woo-master.

I woo terms, it means we can possibly soul travel to other planets.
Since I can’t disprove it, maybe if you just believe it hard enough, it will happen.
Maybe you’ve already done it and can’t see what you experienced, so maybe…

Or, it’s only true that we can’t know things with 100% certainty.
So the word “impossible” can’t have an absolute meaning.
Technically it is equivalent to “extremely improbable”, but then you get into the math of probability,
and people don’t want to do that.
So, we have this word that people take to mean things it doesn’t.

a) Everything is possible that is not forbidden by Physics’ laws.
b) What was possible yesterday it is impossible today and
what is impossible today can be possible tomorrow.

(for example: the Earth is flat because if Earth is sphere then
the people on the other side of sphere cannot walk or
the origin of the universe was begun from Big Bang because
before was a singular point.)
======…

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The secret of God, Soul and Existence is hidden
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Posted: 15 April 2015 04:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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God is a greatest code – maker.
But, as every code,  God’s code also can be cracked with the right key.
In my opinion the right key has two formulas.
The one is -  T =  - 273, 15 . . . .
The second is –  c/d = 3,14 . . . .
Using this key somebody, after strict analysis, can discover
who God is,
where God is,
how the God create the Existence.
=========….

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The secret of God, Soul and Existence is hidden
in ‘ Vacuum and Quantum of Light Theories ’.

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Posted: 16 April 2015 08:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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socratus - 15 April 2015 04:18 AM

Using this key somebody, after strict analysis, can discover
who God is,
where God is,
how the God create the Existence.
=========….

Socratus,
I don’t think it is god you are trying to solve here. It is more to do with the soul.
 
Mankind has had three ages from what I can make out so far.
 
The first age was the “Age of Wild”. Where man lived off what he could gather.
 
The second age was the “Age of Domestication”. Where man (mainly the gods) domesticated earth (plants and animals) for mankind.
 
Then because of natural disaster, mankind just about went extinct.  Less than 5,000 humans existed to repopulate the earth. They tried to carry forth the knowledge of the gods, but just did not have enough people to carry the ideas and knowledge forward. The result was a mixed thinking of old and new ideas. The vast knowledge of the Age of Domestication was mostly gone. The new population fed by the protein created by the methods of Domestication. The warming of the earth’s cycle, creating the melting of the Ice and allowing vast new habitats, thus more people. People heard stories of the gods and how they created earth for mankind and how they had vast knowledge things. This I think is how the “Age of Deities” got started.  God as you describe never existed in the past. He got formed, starting in the 1860’s. 
 
We are still in the “Age of Deities”. And people like me would like to get the hell out and move forward.
 
I think you want to know, what makes us tick. Me too. grin

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Posted: 16 April 2015 04:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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socratus - 01 April 2015 08:50 AM
Write4U - 31 March 2015 02:33 PM

p.s.
I agree with your signature line,
but rather than explaining the existence of a god,
it will disprove the existence of any motivated god, IMO.

Nobody knows what vacuum is.
Nobody knows what quanta light are.
Therefore every speculation is possible.
===...

Well yes, any speculation is possible, but when there is an unprovable assertion, Ockham’s Razor should apply or else we start creating allegorical fairy tales, such as we have in religious dogma and mythology.

Define God and explain why the definition leads to a conclusion of a motivated sentient supernatural being. If you cannot even present a single proof of such an assumption, the assumption is merely wishful speculation.

l’ll give you my definition of God.  All concepts of sentient Gods are ingnorant attempts to describe a hierarchy of Universal Potentials. And I can defend this on scientific grounds.

As to souls, all things animate and inanimate have a soul, in science it’s called “eigenstate” (an inherent identity of the whole object). The soul (eigenstate) has no motivated sentience and when the object dies or is destroyed, its eigenstate (soul) is also destroyed. Poof, ...... all gone (converted to other eigenstates as per conservation of energy).

Wiki:

In the everyday world, it is natural and intuitive to think of every object being in its own eigenstate. This is another way of saying that every object appears to have a definite position, a definite momentum, a definite measured value, and a definite time of occurrence

and

When an object can definitely be “pinned down” in some respect, it is said to possess an eigenstate. As stated above, when the wavefunction collapses because the position of an electron has been determined, the electron’s state becomes an “eigenstate of position”, meaning that its position has a known value, an eigenvalue of the eigenstate of position.[4]

The word “eigenstate” is derived from the German/Dutch word “eigen”, meaning “inherent” or “characteristic”. An eigenstate is the measured state of some object possessing quantifiable characteristics such as position, momentum, etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introduction_to_eigenstates

[ Edited: 16 April 2015 05:19 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 21 April 2015 10:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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Write4U - 16 April 2015 04:56 PM
socratus - 01 April 2015 08:50 AM
Write4U - 31 March 2015 02:33 PM

p.s.
I agree with your signature line,
but rather than explaining the existence of a god,
it will disprove the existence of any motivated god, IMO.

Nobody knows what vacuum is.
Nobody knows what quanta light are.
Therefore every speculation is possible.
===...

Well yes, any speculation is possible, but when there is an unprovable assertion,
Ockham’s Razor should apply or else we start creating allegorical fairy tales,
such as we have in religious dogma and mythology.

Define God and explain why the definition leads to a conclusion of a motivated sentient
supernatural being. If you cannot even present a single proof of such an assumption,
the assumption is merely wishful speculation.

l’ll give you my definition of God.
All concepts of sentient Gods are ingnorant attempts to describe a hierarchy of Universal Potentials.
And I can defend this on scientific grounds.

As to souls, all things animate and inanimate have a soul,
in science it’s called “eigenstate” (an inherent identity of the whole object).
The soul (eigenstate) has no motivated sentience and when the object dies or is destroyed,
its eigenstate (soul) is also destroyed.
Poof, ...... all gone (converted to other eigenstates as per conservation of energy).

Wiki:

In the everyday world, it is natural and intuitive to think of every object being in its own eigenstate.
This is another way of saying that every object appears to have a definite position, a definite momentum,
a definite measured value, and a definite time of occurrence


and

When an object can definitely be “pinned down” in some respect, it is said to possess an eigenstate.
As stated above, when the wavefunction collapses because the position of an electron has been determined,
the electron’s state becomes an “eigenstate of position”,
meaning that its position has a known value, an eigenvalue of the eigenstate of position.[4]

The word “eigenstate” is derived from the German/Dutch word “eigen”, meaning “inherent” or “characteristic”.
An eigenstate is the measured state of some object possessing quantifiable characteristics such as position,
momentum, etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introduction_to_eigenstates

  a)
Ockham’s Razor should be applied in Physics when we
start creating theory which would explain the allegorical
fairy tales, such as we have in religious dogma and mythology.
  b)
God is a Highest Infinite Potential of creating Existence
in a hierarchy of Universal Potentials to do this work.
  c)
“Eigen”, “Eigen state”, “Eigen state of position”, this is another
way of saying that every living being appears to have “Soul”.
===…

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Posted: 22 April 2015 12:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
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socratus - 21 April 2015 10:29 PM
Write4U - 16 April 2015 04:56 PM
socratus - 01 April 2015 08:50 AM
Write4U - 31 March 2015 02:33 PM

p.s.
I agree with your signature line,
but rather than explaining the existence of a god,
it will disprove the existence of any motivated god, IMO.

Nobody knows what vacuum is.
Nobody knows what quanta light are.
Therefore every speculation is possible.
===...

Well yes, any speculation is possible, but when there is an unprovable assertion,
Ockham’s Razor should apply or else we start creating allegorical fairy tales,
such as we have in religious dogma and mythology.

Define God and explain why the definition leads to a conclusion of a motivated sentient
supernatural being. If you cannot even present a single proof of such an assumption,
the assumption is merely wishful speculation.

l’ll give you my definition of God.
All concepts of sentient Gods are ingnorant attempts to describe a hierarchy of Universal Potentials.
And I can defend this on scientific grounds.

As to souls, all things animate and inanimate have a soul,
in science it’s called “eigenstate” (an inherent identity of the whole object).
The soul (eigenstate) has no motivated sentience and when the object dies or is destroyed,
its eigenstate (soul) is also destroyed.
Poof, ...... all gone (converted to other eigenstates as per conservation of energy).

Wiki:

In the everyday world, it is natural and intuitive to think of every object being in its own eigenstate.
This is another way of saying that every object appears to have a definite position, a definite momentum,
a definite measured value, and a definite time of occurrence


and

When an object can definitely be “pinned down” in some respect, it is said to possess an eigenstate.
As stated above, when the wavefunction collapses because the position of an electron has been determined,
the electron’s state becomes an “eigenstate of position”,
meaning that its position has a known value, an eigenvalue of the eigenstate of position.[4]

The word “eigenstate” is derived from the German/Dutch word “eigen”, meaning “inherent” or “characteristic”.
An eigenstate is the measured state of some object possessing quantifiable characteristics such as position,
momentum, etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introduction_to_eigenstates

  a)
Ockham’s Razor should be applied in Physics when we
start creating theory which would explain the allegorical
fairy tales, such as we have in religious dogma and mythology.

That is not what I wrote, but in essence, yes. In this case I meant the dogma regarding the properties of God.

  b)
God is a Highest Infinite Potential of creating Existence
in a hierarchy of Universal Potentials to do this work.

Well, it seems we are in agreement that the term God is the name given to a condition of infinite (pure) potential.

c)
“Eigen”, “Eigen state”, “Eigen state of position”, this is another way of saying that every living being appears to have “Soul”.
===…

I wrote,“all things, animate and inanimate have a soul”, placing the word in its proper context of having “inherent potential”.

The problem is that when you die your eigenstate also dies and your potential dies with your mind and body. Actually your body will rot, which creates the potential for use as fertilizer.

I have no quarrel with the secular moral allegories in scripture. “Let him who is without sin cast the first stone” is a profound secular moral statement. “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you” is one of my guiding morals.

I have a problem with the dogma attached to the assumption of an infinite, “supernatural”, “sentient”, “motivated”, “emotional” field of potentials which we call God, who purposely created man in his image, for his pleasure. By Ockham’s standards, we can drop 4 of those attributes and still end up with human beings, without prior approval.

If you want to go more abstract, then you will depart from the indoctrinated “common perception of God” and religious people won’t know what you are talking about. After all, scripture is the sacred word of God (Truth) as communicated directly to his prophets. Somewhere, sometime, something got lost in translation and presto, we have 2000 years of holy wars in the name of (the same) God.

Try to convince people to wage war in the name of a Quantum Potential Field.

[ Edited: 22 April 2015 01:06 AM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 22 April 2015 02:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
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socratus, are you familiar with David Bohm’s work.

He calls the type of God you visualize as “insight intelligence”.  I think that definition is a perfect match for your God.

The difference is that Bohm does not see “insight intelligence” as a) supernatural, b) sentient, c) motivated, c) emotional, being, separate from what we know to be the Wholeness.
My interpretation of Bohm’s term is a) natural, not separate, b) mathematically pseudo-sentient, c) dynamic d) evolutionary process, in accordance with its inherent mathematical permissions and restrictions.

Potential = That which may become reality. Potential expression in reality is a natural dynamic process, governed by mathematical relationships.

From this we can argue that while not all potential becomes real, all reality (past, present, future) (was, is, will be) preceded by potential.
It is the “alpha and the omega”, the “latent excellence” of a thing, by virtue of its very physical expression and existence in reality.

Not all of potential becomes real, it may remain a latent ability of a thing and never used. Water in a lake has the potential to be used as a source of power, but as long as the lake is just a lake, that inherent potential remains latent. If the water dries up, that potential also disappears. Instead, its potential to become a gas released the entire content of the lake into the air, with a later weather report warning of potential thunderstorms in the area. Potential!

It is a common denominator of all things real and not real. All existence, functions, fields or constructs, physical or metaphysical, is preceded by potential. Without Potential and at a lower level, the Probability wave function, our universe would not ever have come into existence. OTOH, infinite potential confined in any finite form cannot remain latent, it will become dynamic. 
We need not assign purpose to the universe, it was an inevitability, IMO.

If we did assign purpose, we would have to conclude that the Bible, the Word of God, written by humans, was the fruit of a poisoned tree (original sin), after he confounded their language.

“Now the whole earth used the same language and the same words. And it came about as they journeyed east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar and settled there. And they said to one another, “Come, let us make bricks and burn them thoroughly.” And they used brick for stone, and they used tar for mortar. And they said, “Come, let us build for ourselves a city, and a tower whose top will reach into heaven, and let us make for ourselves a name; lest we be scattered abroad over the face of the whole earth.” And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower which the sons of men had built. And the LORD said, “Behold, they are one people, and they all have the same language. And this is what they began to do, and now nothing which they purpose to do will be impossible for them. “Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.” So the LORD scattered them abroad from there over the face of the whole earth; and they stopped building the city. Therefore its name was called Babel, because there the LORD confused the language of the whole earth; and from there the LORD scattered them abroad over the face of the whole earth.” Genesis 11:1-9, NASB.

Motive or Potential? This divine strategy does not seem to have worked very well, all we need do is look around the world to see what man has accomplished in spite of confounded languages.

[ Edited: 22 April 2015 08:51 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 26 June 2015 06:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
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Quantum Theory:
a)  Probability waves in nothing at all
b) Action at a distance
c)  Single things being two things at the same time
d) Behavior existing without anything doing the behaving
e)  ” impossible measurements”
===
Lots of hand-waving all “explained” as magic.
Yet experiments show that classical ideas do NOT explain how reality works.
Hence Quantum Mechanics is clearly the science of human ignorance.
/ From: benj <nobody@xxxxxxxxx> /
==========…

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