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Revolution In Thought
Posted: 13 March 2015 05:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
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[quote =“peacegirl”]I also made it into an ebook so people wouldn’t have to pay much to read it.  Is $4.99 for a 600 page book is too much money?

[quote=“Gdb”]No, but taking the time to read 600 pages is.  You say that Lessans offers a different perspective on a longstanding debate: I assume the free will debate and its collaterals psychology and ethics. This supposes that you know the debate, and in what your father’s ideas differ: please mention these differences.

That’s the excuse everyone gives.  I can’t do more than I’ve done.  It took me over ten years to compile this work and if your skepticism is such that it is too difficult to read because it takes up too much of your precious time, then so be it.

[quote=“Gdb”]I’ve scanned through the first pages, and even that it is written in a calm tone, the first half is just the same rant we know of all kind of crackpots: established science does not want to hear what my ingenious theory is. “And the same happened with (fill in a list of geniuses that originally were not recognised by the science of their time)”. Most of the times however, when scientists do not want to listen, is because they recognise very quickly that the ideas are rubbish, or at least not new. Calling the ideas a ‘Revolution In Thought’ that will save humanity, increases the chance that the ideas are rubbish.

These ideas ARE new, and for you to depend on other people’s opinions of what constitutes rubbish is not independent thinking.  It’s just copying what everyone else has said. Lessans knew the debate backward and forwards, so you cannot use this as a means of argument. 

[quote=“peacegirl”]There is a huge difference in the definition of determinism itself.  This is the crux of the problem.  The conventional definition is not completely accurate.

[quote=“Gdb”] Compare e.g. with Daniel Dennett (‘Freedom evolves’,‘Elbow room’), or e.g. this online article. You know all the ideas of compatibilist and incompatibilist theories of free will, of those incompatibilists that argue we have free will, and those who argued we have not? If you don’t know all these ideas, how do you know your father’s ideas differ from them?

I can do that because I know the arguments.  Compatibilism is just a way for philosophers to reconcile determinism with moral responsibility.  The problem is we cannot have free will and determinism in the same sentence.  They are mutually exclusive ideologies.

[quote=“Gdb”]And then: a rational idea does not necessary abolishes all evil. Of course, if all people share the same universal ethics, there will be peace. But that will be true for any universal ethics. Just to say that ‘if all people would recognise the idea, then we will get rid of all evil’ is pretty empty, because many ideas will do. We will have peace when I can convince all people that they should stop hurting each other. That is quite obvious, isn’t it?

That is ridiculous GdB.  That’s not his proof.  OMG, how can you assume that this is what he’s saying?  This IS the stumbling block that he was up against in the 20th century and again in the 21st century.  When are people going to really listen?  I don’t mind questions but when you tell me right off the bat that he didn’t know the argument, you have crossed the line. 

[quote=“Gdb”]Given this way I see things, I won’t spend much more time on this, except you can convince me of the idea beforehand.

Sorry that I can’t convince you of giving him the benefit of the doubt before you start denouncing his reasoning.  Without studying his work, how in the world can you determine whether to give this discovery more time?  That was a rhetorical question; no need to answer.

Sorry that I’m having problems with the quote button.  Every forum is different and this one does not even show that I ended a quote.  I can’t even take the time to figure it out.  People will just have to bear with the fact that the post doesn’t follow the rules.

[ Edited: 13 March 2015 06:36 AM by peacegirl ]
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Posted: 13 March 2015 07:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
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Well said, GdB.

Peacegirl, you are still avoiding posting anything of substance. I am not going to waste any more of my “precious time” on you.

[ Edited: 13 March 2015 07:10 AM by DarronS ]
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Posted: 13 March 2015 07:17 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
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DarronS - 13 March 2015 07:08 AM

Well said, GdB.

Peacegirl, you are still avoiding posting anything of substance. I am not going to waste any more of my “precious time” on you.

Then don’t DarronS.  We have no obligation to each other.

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I think, therefore I don’t vaccinate.

“Vaccination is a barbarous practice and one of the most fatal of all the delusions current in our time.”  Mahatma Gandhi

Ever heard of the Golden Rule?... He who has the gold makes the rules!

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Posted: 13 March 2015 07:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
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I looked at the amazon reviews for the book. There’s one that says it is incoherent, then another, looks like the creator of the web linked here, who says that’s wrong, and you have to read the book. Apparently this book can’t be explained.

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Posted: 14 March 2015 03:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
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peacegirl - 12 March 2015 11:43 AM

I can, and I’ve done it but I know that reading the text gives you a more clear picture.  If it’s too concise it won’t do this knowledge justice, as I’ve already said.  Why is it so difficult for you to go to the website and listen for a half hour.  Then come back and we can talk more. 

http://www.declineandfallofallevil.org

I went to the website and read the first chapter. There was nothing to listen.

As I understand it, what is proposed is the Golden Rule.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule

The Golden Rule or ethic of reciprocity is a maxim, ethical code or morality that essentially states either of the following:

  * One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself (directive form).
  * One should not treat others in ways that one would not like to be treated (cautionary form, also known as the Silver Rule).

Unfortunately, the real world is not utopia.

[ Edited: 14 March 2015 03:36 AM by kkwan ]
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Posted: 14 March 2015 05:16 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
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Lausten - 13 March 2015 07:05 PM

I looked at the amazon reviews for the book. There’s one that says it is incoherent, then another, looks like the creator of the web linked here, who says that’s wrong, and you have to read the book. Apparently this book can’t be explained.

Are you kidding me?  This book can be understood.  How quick you are to come to a premature conclusion.  This is a center for inquiry, is it not?  So why aren’t you inquiring? confused

[ Edited: 14 March 2015 01:56 PM by peacegirl ]
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I think, therefore I don’t vaccinate.

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Posted: 14 March 2015 05:17 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
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kkwan - 14 March 2015 03:31 AM
peacegirl - 12 March 2015 11:43 AM

I can, and I’ve done it but I know that reading the text gives you a more clear picture.  If it’s too concise it won’t do this knowledge justice, as I’ve already said.  Why is it so difficult for you to go to the website and listen for a half hour.  Then come back and we can talk more. 

http://www.declineandfallofallevil.org

I went to the website and read the first chapter. There was nothing to listen.

As I understand it, what is proposed is the Golden Rule.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule

The Golden Rule or ethic of reciprocity is a maxim, ethical code or morality that essentially states either of the following:

  * One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself (directive form).
  * One should not treat others in ways that one would not like to be treated (cautionary form, also known as the Silver Rule).


Unfortunately, the real world is not utopia.

Why are you defending what you can’t defend because you have no idea what you’re talking about in reference to this knowledge?  I feel like I’m in a twilight zone.  How can I even begin to discuss this knowledge with you when you have already concluded that this is nothing more than the Golden Rule?

[ Edited: 14 March 2015 10:27 AM by peacegirl ]
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I think, therefore I don’t vaccinate.

“Vaccination is a barbarous practice and one of the most fatal of all the delusions current in our time.”  Mahatma Gandhi

Ever heard of the Golden Rule?... He who has the gold makes the rules!

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Posted: 14 March 2015 09:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
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peacegirl - 14 March 2015 05:17 AM

How can I even begin to discuss this knowledge with you when you have already concluded that this is nothing more than the Golden Rule?

Most people offer some sort of outline of their idea. Also some poignant quotes from the author. Something less than a demand that we read 600 pages of a book that has never garnered any attention in the past. If I see something brown and smelly on the sidewalk, I don’t pick it up.

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Posted: 14 March 2015 09:26 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
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peacegirl - 13 March 2015 05:15 AM

That’s the excuse everyone gives.  I can’t do more than I’ve done.  It took me over ten years to compile this work and if your skepticism is such that it is too difficult to read because it takes up too much of your precious time, then so be it.

It is not an excuse. As you said yourself, I am in no obligation to read your father’s book, so I don’t need an excuse. I am just wondering why you don’t just tell us what the differences with the philosophical debate about free will and responsibility are.

peacegirl - 13 March 2015 05:15 AM

These ideas ARE new, and for you to depend on other people’s opinions of what constitutes rubbish is not independent thinking.

So an independent thinker should read every book that contains ‘revolutionary new thought’ and that needs a foreword that complains about not being heard by the scientific community? Why not just go ahead with the essential idea, so the reader really gets interested?

peacegirl - 13 March 2015 05:15 AM

I can do that because I know the arguments.  Compatibilism is just a way for philosophers to reconcile determinism with moral responsibility.

No, no. Not ‘reconcile’. Without determinism, our actions would reduce to random events, instead of expressions of what we really are, as products of our biology and biography. Determinism is a necessary condition for free will. If you don’t think so (but first read further), then tell me why. Or what your father would have answered.

peacegirl - 13 March 2015 05:15 AM

The problem is we cannot have free will and determinism in the same sentence.

Well you just did! rolleyes

peacegirl - 13 March 2015 05:15 AM

They are mutually exclusive ideologies.

So if your actions arise from your wishes, feelings and beliefs, then you are not free? And if what you wish, feel and believe is separate from your biology and biography, then that is being free? What remains is that what I am is randomness, or what I do is randomness, or even both. What is your father’s (or your) reaction on this?

peacegirl - 13 March 2015 05:15 AM

And then: a rational idea does not necessary abolishes all evil. Of course, if all people share the same universal ethics, there will be peace. But that will be true for any universal ethics. Just to say that ‘if all people would recognise the idea, then we will get rid of all evil’ is pretty empty, because many ideas will do. We will have peace when I can convince all people that they should stop hurting each other. That is quite obvious, isn’t it?

That is ridiculous GdB.  That’s not his proof.  OMG, how can you assume that this is what he’s saying? 

I didn’t say it is his proof. I said that every idea of a universal ethics, when accepted by everybody, would bring peace. Which means that whatever your father’s idea is, it cannot be that special as you think it is.

peacegirl - 13 March 2015 05:15 AM

I don’t mind questions but when you tell me right off the bat that he didn’t know the argument, you have crossed the line. 

I hope you see that I did not cross the line. I ask questions. But you do not give real answers.

peacegirl - 13 March 2015 05:15 AM

ISorry that I’m having problems with the quote button.  Every forum is different and this one does not even show that I ended a quote.  I can’t even take the time to figure it out.  People will just have to bear with the fact that the post doesn’t follow the rules.

It was clear what paragraph was of whom.

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Posted: 14 March 2015 10:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
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peacegirl, I just googled a little, and found this, dated February 13, 2013.

This guy was on one of the forums and did not like his second discovery, so he went behind my back and gave this horrible review without even reading the book.  He misrepresented a lot of what the author was saying.  If you’re going to use this one review to reject this discovery, then be my guest.  In time, there will be a lot of good reviews so I’m not worried.

‘This guy’ is the critic on Amazon of your father’s book.

Since then only one contentless positive review was written.

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Posted: 14 March 2015 10:04 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]
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peacegirl - 14 March 2015 05:17 AM

Why are you defending what you can’t defend because you have no idea what you’re talking about in reference to this knowledge?  I feel like I’m in a twilight zone.  How can I even begin to discuss this knowledge with you when you have already concluded that this is nothing more than the Golden Rule?

Well, one strategy would be to tell kkwan what the difference of your father’s ideas with the Golden Rule is.

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GdB

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Posted: 14 March 2015 10:11 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]
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Lausten - 14 March 2015 09:24 AM
peacegirl - 14 March 2015 05:17 AM

How can I even begin to discuss this knowledge with you when you have already concluded that this is nothing more than the Golden Rule?

Most people offer some sort of outline of their idea. Also some poignant quotes from the author. Something less than a demand that we read 600 pages of a book that has never garnered any attention in the past. If I see something brown and smelly on the sidewalk, I don’t pick it up.

What do you mean by that?  That you smell something fishy just because I can’t spit it out in the way you demand?  I am not asking you to read 600 pages.  I am asking you to read the first chapter for starters.  Or you could listen to the author read and elaborate on the first chapter.  It’s not like I’m not giving you something to sink your teeth into.  If I had nothing to offer, that’s another story.  But I have something of great value to offer.  The only thing I resent is that people expect me to break this knowledge down into a few sentences, which will cause a lot of confusion.  Okay, how about if I meet you half way.  I will cut and paste some of the first chapter so that you don’t have to go to another site to read it.

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I think, therefore I don’t vaccinate.

“Vaccination is a barbarous practice and one of the most fatal of all the delusions current in our time.”  Mahatma Gandhi

Ever heard of the Golden Rule?... He who has the gold makes the rules!

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Posted: 14 March 2015 10:17 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]
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GdB - 14 March 2015 10:03 AM

peacegirl, I just googled a little, and found this, dated February 13, 2013.

This guy was on one of the forums and did not like his second discovery, so he went behind my back and gave this horrible review without even reading the book.  He misrepresented a lot of what the author was saying.  If you’re going to use this one review to reject this discovery, then be my guest.  In time, there will be a lot of good reviews so I’m not worried.

‘This guy’ is the critic on Amazon of your father’s book.

Since then only one contentless positive review was written.

This guy completely misrepresented the book.  He didn’t like Lessans’ claim regarding light and sight, which motivated him to give this awful review.  I was almost in tears when I read it because he never even purchased the book.  He talked about force.  He manufactured this because there is no talk of force in the entire book.  I have to admit that I sometimes am influenced by negative reviews and will not buy a product because of it.  My hope is that when this book is marketed and read by people interested in this topic, there will be plenty of positive reviews.

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I think, therefore I don’t vaccinate.

“Vaccination is a barbarous practice and one of the most fatal of all the delusions current in our time.”  Mahatma Gandhi

Ever heard of the Golden Rule?... He who has the gold makes the rules!

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Posted: 14 March 2015 10:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]
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GdB - 14 March 2015 10:04 AM
peacegirl - 14 March 2015 05:17 AM

Why are you defending what you can’t defend because you have no idea what you’re talking about in reference to this knowledge?  I feel like I’m in a twilight zone.  How can I even begin to discuss this knowledge with you when you have already concluded that this is nothing more than the Golden Rule?

Well, one strategy would be to tell kkwan what the difference of your father’s ideas with the Golden Rule is.

The Golden Rule states “do unto others as you would have them do unto you.”  That is a good rule to follow but it doesn’t always work.  What if you are in need of food to feed your family and no one will give you any.  The only option you have is to steal it from a grocery store.  Obviously, you wouldn’t want someone to do that to you if you were the grocery store owner, but you feel that you must do it in order to survive.

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I think, therefore I don’t vaccinate.

“Vaccination is a barbarous practice and one of the most fatal of all the delusions current in our time.”  Mahatma Gandhi

Ever heard of the Golden Rule?... He who has the gold makes the rules!

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Posted: 14 March 2015 10:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]
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kkwan - 14 March 2015 03:31 AM
peacegirl - 12 March 2015 11:43 AM

I can, and I’ve done it but I know that reading the text gives you a more clear picture.  If it’s too concise it won’t do this knowledge justice, as I’ve already said.  Why is it so difficult for you to go to the website and listen for a half hour.  Then come back and we can talk more. 

http://www.declineandfallofallevil.org

I went to the website and read the first chapter. There was nothing to listen.

Go to the website and click on the heading Beyond the Framework of Modern Thought.  Scroll down and you will see the audio.

[ Edited: 14 March 2015 10:32 AM by peacegirl ]
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I think, therefore I don’t vaccinate.

“Vaccination is a barbarous practice and one of the most fatal of all the delusions current in our time.”  Mahatma Gandhi

Ever heard of the Golden Rule?... He who has the gold makes the rules!

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